No Graven Images...

Athanasius377 · Jun 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
x 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

The commandment has two parts, the creation of an image and the bowing down or worship of said image. Its this second part that qualifies the first. In other words if God meant not to make any image He wouldn't have then commanded the construction of the Ark with the Cherubim or the Bronze Serpent later on in the text. The Bronze serpent later became an idol so it was destroyed but was not intended as such when created. More importantly the Bronze serpent is type and shadow of Christ.

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

Athanasius377 said:
The commandment has two parts, the creation of an image and the bowing down or worship of said image. Its this second part that qualifies the first. In other words if God meant not to make any image He wouldn't have then commanded the construction of the Ark with the Cherubim or the Bronze Serpent later on in the text. The Bronze serpent later became an idol so it was destroyed but was not intended as such when created. More importantly the Bronze serpent is type and shadow of Christ.

I believe you are right about this. However I also think that calling anything for which we have strong affection by the term idol is a modern metaphor. When idol is used in scripture, I think it means an actual image, contrary to the proposition given to us in the original post (below) for our consideration.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

Chris V++ · Jun 1, 2019

Some religious art is believed to facilitate miracles or to exhibit miraculous qualities (crying statues, myrrh streaming icons) What is to be believed about these graven images? As someone pointed out the Bronze Serpent was destroyed due to how the people responded to it.

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

Chris V++ said:
Some religious art is believed to facilitate miracles or to exhibit miraculous qualities (crying statues, myrrh streaming icons) What is to be believed about these graven images?

That isn't about idolatry, strictly speaking. You are referring to the practice of attributing something else to those particular artifacts or images.

Peter J Barban · Jun 1, 2019

Most Western people don't have a clear understanding of idols.

If you come here to Taiwan, you will see many temples, idols and foods sacrificed to idols, just like the Bible refers to. Of course, Christians don't use these things, but they are part of our everyday experience. If you want to see some pictures just google: taiwan temple idols.

Lords Man · Jun 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

So, is your point that there are contradictions in Scripture?

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

Peter J Barban said:
If you come here to Taiwan, you will see many temples, idols and foods sacrificed to idols, just like the Bible refers to. Of course, Christians don't use these things, but they are part of our everyday experience. If you want to see some pictures just google: taiwan temple idols.

If I am right about what you are telling us, it amounts to denying that merely having visual aids (graven images) does not constitute idolatry. It requires you also to USE them in a certain way which, as you say, is not typical of Christianity. Is that correct?

Gregory Thompson · Jun 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

Carved images referred to the practice of making an image to worship it.

It's artwork plus idolatry, nothing wrong with the artwork.

Also it is important to note that the Bronze Serpent which was something God used to heal people in the wilderness from poison (which was a trust in God application) was later worshiped as a snake god. So that might help answer your question from one of your examples.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 1, 2019

Peter J Barban said:
Most Western people don't have a clear understanding of idols.

If you come here to Taiwan, you will see many temples, idols and foods sacrificed to idols, just like the Bible refers to. Of course, Christians don't use these things, but they are part of our everyday experience. If you want to see some pictures just google: taiwan temple idols.

Most western people hold their idol in their hands and have their eyes on it constantly as they move to their destination.

What you have mentioned is an important cultural divide to consider when reading the text, since the entertainment value the ancient peoples would have derived from an idol, would be really boring to the overstimulated by technology people.

Peter J Barban · Jun 1, 2019

Albion said:
If I am right about what you are telling us, it amounts to denying that merely having visual aids (graven images) does not constitute idolatry. It requires you also to USE them in a certain way which, as you say, is not typical of Christianity. Is that correct?

I see visual aids as a slippery slope. Even in Bible times, people thought the idols had divine power or gave you a connection to divine power. If you are worshipping the image as a special conduit to God, that is a problem. However, I doubt many Christians are actually breaking the aforementioned commandment in this way. This is not the kind of law you can accidentally break.

Also, any image limits our ability to worship the fullness of God. How many of us, through no fault of our own, imagine a European Renaissance Jesus when we worship? That's because we know these images so well. But that limits our appreciation for the Jewishness of Jesus. And how many Christians have rejected Jews because we can't see Jesus in their faces?

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

Peter J Barban said:
I see visual aids as a slippery slope.

Yes, I think that's correct to say.

Also, any image limits our ability to worship the fullness of God. How many of us, through no fault of our own, imagine a European Renaissance Jesus when we worship? That's because we know these images so well. But that limits our appreciation for the Jewishness of Jesus.

I'm not convinced of that.

Peter J Barban · Jun 1, 2019

Albion said:
Yes, I think that's correct to say.

I'm not convinced of that.

How do you see it?

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

I just don't think it matters much what Christ looked like exactly, and if art such as that type puts us more in mind about Jesus, able to think more vividly about him, then fine. Its like having a cheche/manger scene at Christmas time.

Cis.jd · Jun 1, 2019

Images =/= visual mediums. It's human psychology that our brains have a bigger connection/focus when we are able to use our senses (vision). For example, if you lost a loved one. Would you rather have a picture of this person or just a piece of paper with his/her name written on it? You would prefer the picture because you as a person can emotionally express and connect more to the visual medium.

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

what you call the second commandment some still call it the first commandment.

Maria Billingsley · Jun 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Dear friends,

The second commandment requires some interpretation.

Ex 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens above, the earth below, or the waters under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

But during the construction of the Ark of Covenant - craftsmen were required to make images of the Cherabim.
1 Kings 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, out of olive wood. 24One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing was five cubits long as well. So the full wingspan was ten cubits.…

And here, Moses is instructed to make a graven image...
Numb 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze serpent, he would recover.

So the question remains - what is the second commandment referring to?

If the issue was the worship of God alone and not just referring to making images, then does that open the commandment to idols of fleshly passion in our lives?

How about objects of worship in our churches - crosses, saints, crucifixes, Mary...

Let's try and have a civil discussion about this...

In both cases these were instructions by God Himself for a specific purpose. These were not man made idols to another god like the golden calf. Neither of these exist today and there has been no other command by God to build any such thing since. Jesus Christ of Nazareth fulfilled all.

ChicanaRose · Jun 1, 2019

Lost4words said:
What about people who bow down to their Bibles?

What about people who bow down to their beds when kneeling by them to pray?

Out of here......I knew it would become a Catholic bashing thread

From the beginning, you came in with this preconception. So it's hard to convince you that this is not about Catholic bashing when you had already made up your mind that it is.

ChicanaRose · Jun 1, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
What about them?

I think you are already aware of the context of this thread. So I will ask someone else since I don't want to go in circles with you.

Albion · Jun 1, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
From the beginning, you came in with this preconception. So it's hard to convince you that this is not about Catholic bashing when you had already made up your mind that it is.

Have you ever noticed that no one whines about any alleged "Methodist bashing" or "Congregationalist bashing," etc. although they take their share of criticism? Its always one denomination.

ChicanaRose · Jun 1, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Images =/= visual mediums. It's human psychology that our brains have a bigger connection/focus when we are able to use our senses (vision). For example, if you lost a loved one. Would you rather have a picture of this person or just a piece of paper with his/her name written on it? You would prefer the picture because you as a person can emotionally express and connect more to the visual medium.

Would bowing down to Mary be a violation of the second commandment? I've seen people talk to the gravestones of their beloved deceased ones; and salute the gravestones of fallen war heroes.

But then they don't bow down to the gravestones. So the bowing down/ kneeling down to Marian statues seems a little different.

No Graven Images...

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