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Featured No Graven Images...

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Carl Emerson, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

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    The commandment has two parts, the creation of an image and the bowing down or worship of said image. Its this second part that qualifies the first. In other words if God meant not to make any image He wouldn't have then commanded the construction of the Ark with the Cherubim or the Bronze Serpent later on in the text. The Bronze serpent later became an idol so it was destroyed but was not intended as such when created. More importantly the Bronze serpent is type and shadow of Christ.
     
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  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I believe you are right about this. However I also think that calling anything for which we have strong affection by the term idol is a modern metaphor. When idol is used in scripture, I think it means an actual image, contrary to the proposition given to us in the original post (below) for our consideration.

     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
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  3. Chris V++

    Chris V++ In Orbit Supporter

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    Some religious art is believed to facilitate miracles or to exhibit miraculous qualities (crying statues, myrrh streaming icons) What is to be believed about these graven images? As someone pointed out the Bronze Serpent was destroyed due to how the people responded to it.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That isn't about idolatry, strictly speaking. You are referring to the practice of attributing something else to those particular artifacts or images.
     
  5. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    Most Western people don't have a clear understanding of idols.

    If you come here to Taiwan, you will see many temples, idols and foods sacrificed to idols, just like the Bible refers to. Of course, Christians don't use these things, but they are part of our everyday experience. If you want to see some pictures just google: taiwan temple idols.
     
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  6. Lords Man

    Lords Man Active Member

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    So, is your point that there are contradictions in Scripture?
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    If I am right about what you are telling us, it amounts to denying that merely having visual aids (graven images) does not constitute idolatry. It requires you also to USE them in a certain way which, as you say, is not typical of Christianity. Is that correct?
     
  8. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Carved images referred to the practice of making an image to worship it.

    It's artwork plus idolatry, nothing wrong with the artwork.

    Also it is important to note that the Bronze Serpent which was something God used to heal people in the wilderness from poison (which was a trust in God application) was later worshiped as a snake god. So that might help answer your question from one of your examples.
     
  9. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Most western people hold their idol in their hands and have their eyes on it constantly as they move to their destination.

    What you have mentioned is an important cultural divide to consider when reading the text, since the entertainment value the ancient peoples would have derived from an idol, would be really boring to the overstimulated by technology people.
     
  10. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    I see visual aids as a slippery slope. Even in Bible times, people thought the idols had divine power or gave you a connection to divine power. If you are worshipping the image as a special conduit to God, that is a problem. However, I doubt many Christians are actually breaking the aforementioned commandment in this way. This is not the kind of law you can accidentally break.

    Also, any image limits our ability to worship the fullness of God. How many of us, through no fault of our own, imagine a European Renaissance Jesus when we worship? That's because we know these images so well. But that limits our appreciation for the Jewishness of Jesus. And how many Christians have rejected Jews because we can't see Jesus in their faces?
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Yes, I think that's correct to say.
    I'm not convinced of that. ;)
     
  12. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    How do you see it?
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I just don't think it matters much what Christ looked like exactly, and if art such as that type puts us more in mind about Jesus, able to think more vividly about him, then fine. Its like having a cheche/manger scene at Christmas time.
     
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  14. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    Images =/= visual mediums. It's human psychology that our brains have a bigger connection/focus when we are able to use our senses (vision). For example, if you lost a loved one. Would you rather have a picture of this person or just a piece of paper with his/her name written on it? You would prefer the picture because you as a person can emotionally express and connect more to the visual medium.
     
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  15. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    what you call the second commandment some still call it the first commandment.
     
  16. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In both cases these were instructions by God Himself for a specific purpose. These were not man made idols to another god like the golden calf. Neither of these exist today and there has been no other command by God to build any such thing since. Jesus Christ of Nazareth fulfilled all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  17. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    From the beginning, you came in with this preconception. So it's hard to convince you that this is not about Catholic bashing when you had already made up your mind that it is.
     
  18. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    I think you are already aware of the context of this thread. So I will ask someone else since I don't want to go in circles with you.
     
  19. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Have you ever noticed that no one whines about any alleged "Methodist bashing" or "Congregationalist bashing," etc. although they take their share of criticism? Its always one denomination.
     
  20. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    Would bowing down to Mary be a violation of the second commandment? I've seen people talk to the gravestones of their beloved deceased ones; and salute the gravestones of fallen war heroes.

    But then they don't bow down to the gravestones. So the bowing down/ kneeling down to Marian statues seems a little different.
     
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