No Fixed Calendar at Sinai

[Dale]

"Like the Sabbath, the week originated at creation, and it has been preserved and
brought down to us through Bible history. God Himself measured off the first week as a sample for successive weeks to the close of time."

This is from Seventh Day Adventist founder Ellen White's Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 9: The Literal Week.

Ellen White believed in a rather simple minded way that the days of the week have come down to us since the time of creation by counting off days in sevens. Adam and Eve knew the day of the week and that knowledge has been passed down to us. Her belief that God will ruthlessly destroy those who do not keep the correct day of the week as Sabbath assumes that we know what day of week it is in God's eyes.

In a chat room, I once challenged an SDA member on this. Isn't it possible that we have lost track of the day of the week sometime in the last few thousand years? There have been times of complete chaos. They lost four years off the calendar. What's a couple of days? My concern was instantly brushed aside.

It turns out that I didn't know how right I was. We don't have to speculate. There was no fixed calendar with repeating seven day weeks at Sinai. Our ancestors didn't hand it down to us from the time of Sinai because it never existed.

What do we know about the Jewish calendar? It falls into three periods:

One: The local lunar calendar Time of Judges & OT Kings.

Two: The centralized lunar calendar In place by the time of Christ.

Three: The fixed calendar In place by 400 AD.


The local lunar calendar is what the Israelites used at the time of the Judges, OT Kings, and before. Every month, in every village, a Levite priest observed the day of the New Moon. The appearance of the New Moon started another month. After observing the New Moon, sabbaths were set by counting off days and any other festivals that occurred that month were set in the same way.

Since the New Moon was observed in every village, it is possible that different villages and towns didn't agree in their observations and set the Sabbath on different days.

With the establishment of the Sanhedrin, the process was centralized. Witnesses came before the Sanhedrin (or a committee) and testified that they had seen the New Moon. The Sanhedrin then declared that a new month had started and set the days of upcoming Sabbaths and festivals.

The fixed calendar came about during a time period when the Jews were in serious conflict with the Roman empire, with Roman Emperors. Around 357 AD, the High Priest Hillel II realized that the day was in sight when the Roman government would shut down the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin would be banned, not allowed to meet. Hillel II ordered that a fixed calendar be drawn up. The Sanhedrin adopted a fixed Jewish calendar before the Romans banned the Sanhedrin.

We do know that the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem, or Israel, and those in Babylon, or Iraq, carried on a running argument about the correct calendar that went on for over a hundred years.

There was no fixed Jewish calendar when God gave out the Ten Commandments on Sinai. God did not command that we count off days in sevens for years and decades at a time and observe the seventh day as a Sabbath because no such system was in place. Likewise, there was no fixed Jewish calendar at the time of Christ. When Jesus did observe the Sabbath, he did not endorse a fixed calendar in use at the time because there was none. He observed the Sabbaths set by the Sanhedrin based on monthly observation of the New Moon.

This doesn't prove that the calendar that we use today is wrong but it does show that flexibility is required.



Quote from Ellen White:

White, Ellen G.. CONFLICT OF THE AGES: THE FIVE BOOKS. Patriarchs And Prophets; Prophets And Kings; The Desire Of Ages; The Acts Of The Apostles; The Great Controversy (Timeless Wisdom Collection) Business and Leadership Publishing. Kindle Edition.
See Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 9: The Literal Week, Kindle Location 1161-1168.

 

[Dale]

Some folks may want more explanation of the information in the OP.

"In the religious calendar, the commencement of the month was determined by the observation of the crescent New Moon, and the date of the Passover was tied in with the ripening of barley. The actual witnessing of the New Moon and observing of the stand of crops in Judaea were required for the functioning of the religious calendar."

--Encyclopedia Britannica under Jewish Calendar

Link
Calendar - Ancient and religious calendar systems



"The beginning of the month with the appearance of the new moon was--as it is still--of great practical importance among the Hebrews, inasmuch as the first of every month was to be observed as New Moon's Day, and certain feasts were affixed to the 10th, 14th, or other days of the month. The earliest appearance of the new moon was long ascertained by direct observation, and authoritatively settled by a commission of the Sanhedrin, and the intelligence then made known to the Jews at large, first by means of fire signals, and later on through special messengers."

--New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

Link
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Jewish Calendar

 

[Dale]

If there was no fixed calendar when God gave the Ten Commandments at Sinai, what does the Sabbath Commandment mean? It can't mean that God laid down Saturday as sacred on the present day Gregorian Calendar, introduced in 1582. The Gregorian calendar is only a slight variation of the Julian calendar, which goes back to Rome under Julius Caesar. Neither calendar had been drawn up when the Israelites were at Mt. Sinai with Moses.

What it does mean is that everyone gets a day off. If you are the head of a clan, then the whole clan gets a day off, including women, servants, employees, foreigners, and even animals. If you are the head of a household, then everyone in the house gets a day off. In other words, when the community declares a day of rest, then participate, take the day off, and give everyone under you a day off as well.

In the Ten Commandments, the Sabbath is labor law. Everyone gets a day off.

 

[BobRyan]

"Like the Sabbath, the week originated at creation, and it has been preserved and
brought down to us through Bible history. God Himself measured off the first week as a sample for successive weeks to the close of time."

This is from Seventh Day Adventist founder Ellen White's Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 9: The Literal Week.

Nice quote.. thanks


Here is another one

Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 16
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Ex 20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Mark 2:27 "Sabbath was made for mankind"

Ellen White believed in a rather simple minded way that the days of the week have come down to us since the time of creation by counting off days in sevens. Adam and Eve knew the day of the week and that knowledge has been passed down to us. .

A great example insulting her and combining it with a statement of her view. And the Bible texts are??... of ... no interest? for this thread??

Since the New Moon was observed in every village, it is possible that different villages and towns didn't agree in their observations and set the Sabbath on different days.

No text I quoted says "the 7th moon is the Sabbath" or "the seventh day after the new moon is the new weekly Sabbath" so then ... lacking that... how did your post swing so wildly off the point??

We are not "surprised" to learn that many Christians attend Sunday services as being "the first day of the week" and other Christians (and even Jews) attend Saturday services as "the seventh day" of the week.

Is it your claim that all Christians and Jews are merely following whatever Ellen White says about the days of the week? seriously?

hint: regardless of which year is a leap year -- tuesday is always the next day after monday. This is an irrefutable fact that almost everyone knows.

 

[Broken Fence]

We know Sabbath is Saturday because Hebrews have been keeping that day for a long time.

 

[BobRyan]

We know Sabbath is Saturday because Hebrews have been keeping that day for a long time.

And they did not first wait to hear from Ellen White before doing so...

 

[Dale]

Nice quote.. thanks


Here is another one

Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 16
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Ex 20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Mark 2:27 "Sabbath was made for mankind"



A great example insulting her and combining it with a statement of her view. And the Bible texts are??... of ... no interest? for this thread??



No text I quoted says "the 7th moon is the Sabbath" or "the seventh day after the new moon is the new weekly Sabbath" so then ... lacking that... how did your post swing so wildly off the point??

We are not "surprised" to learn that many Christians attend Sunday services as being "the first day of the week" and other Christians (and even Jews) attend Saturday services as "the seventh day" of the week.

Is it your claim that all Christians and Jews are merely following whatever Ellen White says about the days of the week? seriously?

hint: regardless of which year is a leap year -- tuesday is always the next day after monday. This is an irrefutable fact that almost everyone knows.

I'd like to point out that everything in Bob Ryan's signature line is a series of exaggerations and misstatements. BR wants you to believe that the "Baptist Confession," the Westminster Confession, which is Presbyterian, as well as the [Roman] Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Cathecism all uphold worship on an Old Testament Sabbath as part of the Ten Commandments. This isn't true. I believe that what they all say is that the Saturday Sabbath was the right day of rest until Jesus Christ resurrected. At that point, Sunday became the normal Christian day of rest and worship.

 

[BobRyan]

I'd like to point out that everything in Bob Ryan's signature line is a series of exaggerations and misstatements. .

false

 

[BobRyan]

BR wants you to believe that the "Baptist Confession," the Westminster Confession, which is Presbyterian, as well as the [Roman] Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Cathecism all uphold worship on an Old Testament Sabbath

false.

Rather I point out that they all accept that in the OT Sabbath keeping was on Saturday - the Bible Sabbath and in the NT the TEN - ALL TEN still have moral binding force.. the very thing almost everyone on this board opposing the Sabbath denies... (see "the Sabbath and the LAW" forum for details)

I merely add that they affirm the continued Sabbath commandment in an 'edited' form -- edited to now point to week-day-1.

Your post misses that detail entirely.

. I believe that what they all say is that the Saturday Sabbath was the right day of rest until Jesus Christ resurrected. At that point, Sunday became the normal Christian day of rest and worship.

We both say that - where we differ is that I don't gloss over the detail that they claim that all TEN of the Ten commandments remain binding on all mankind - including the Sabbath - as they have edited it to point to week-day-1. AND they agree that the Bible Sabbath was made for all mankind .. the LORD's day.. but then edited to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

almost no one on the Sabbath-and-the-law section - (a forum that is devoted to opposing or else defending the Sabbath) --- argues their view (Their - being the list of groups I refer to in my signature line) of AFFIRMing all the TEN - but editing the Sabbath to point to week-day-1.

If you would like to be one of the very very few arguing for CONTINUED Sabbath obligation -- only edited to point to week day one -- on the "Sabbath and the LAW" forum please come and do it.. I would welcome that form of discussion because to date we cannot get past the "just nine not ten" or "not even the ten" arguments against the Bible Sabbath, on that forum.

 

[Dale]

false

false.

Rather I point out that they all accept that in the OT Sabbath keeping was on Saturday - the Bible Sabbath and in the NT the TEN - ALL TEN still have moral binding force.. the very thing almost everyone on this board opposing the Sabbath denies... (see "the Sabbath and the LAW" forum for details)

I merely add that they affirm the continued Sabbath commandment in an 'edited' form -- edited to now point to week-day-1.

Your post misses that detail entirely.



We both say that - where we differ is that I don't gloss over the detail that they claim that all TEN of the Ten commandments remain binding on all mankind - including the Sabbath - as they have edited it to point to week-day-1. AND they agree that the Bible Sabbath was made for all mankind .. the LORD's day.. but then edited to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

almost no one on the Sabbath-and-the-law section - (a forum that is devoted to opposing or else defending the Sabbath) --- argues their view (Their - being the list of groups I refer to in my signature line) of AFFIRMing all the TEN - but editing the Sabbath to point to week-day-1.

If you would like to be one of the very very few arguing for CONTINUED Sabbath obligation -- only edited to point to week day one -- on the "Sabbath and the LAW" forum please come and do it.. I would welcome that form of discussion because to date we cannot get past the "just nine not ten" or "not even the ten" arguments against the Bible Sabbath, on that forum.

Your signature line starts by referring to the Baptist Confession.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist and I've never heard of the Baptist Confession. What group of Baptists came up with that? Historically, Baptists have had a very low opinion of creeds and binding confessions. They don't recite creeds. If anyone asks what they believe, they say, "We believe the Bible."

 

[BobRyan]

BR wants you to believe that the "Baptist Confession," the Westminster Confession, which is Presbyterian, as well as the [Roman] Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Cathecism all uphold worship on an Old Testament Sabbath

false.

Rather I point out that they all accept that in the OT Sabbath keeping was on Saturday - the Bible Sabbath and in the NT the TEN - ALL TEN still have moral binding force.. the very thing almost everyone on this board opposing the Sabbath denies... (see "the Sabbath and the LAW" forum for details)

I merely add that they affirm the continued Sabbath commandment in an 'edited' form -- edited to now point to week-day-1.

Your post misses that detail entirely.

. I believe that what they all say is that the Saturday Sabbath was the right day of rest until Jesus Christ resurrected. At that point, Sunday became the normal Christian day of rest and worship.

We both say that - where we differ is that I don't gloss over the detail that they claim that all TEN of the Ten commandments remain binding on all mankind - including the Sabbath - as they have edited it to point to week-day-1. AND they agree that the Bible Sabbath was made for all mankind .. the LORD's day.. but then edited to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

almost no one on the Sabbath-and-the-law section - (a forum that is devoted to opposing or else defending the Sabbath) --- argues their view (Their - being the list of groups I refer to in my signature line) of AFFIRMing all the TEN - but editing the Sabbath to point to week-day-1.

If you would like to be one of the very very few arguing for CONTINUED Sabbath obligation -- only edited to point to week day one -- on the "Sabbath and the LAW" forum please come and do it.. I would welcome that form of discussion because to date we cannot get past the "just nine not ten" or "not even the ten" arguments against the Bible Sabbath, on that forum.

Your signature line starts by referring to the Baptist Confession.

Agreed. That is another point where we appear to have agreement.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist and I've never heard of the Baptist Confession.

Then more reading is going to be useful. I did not know about it until in my discussions on the baptist board - a baptist pointed it out to me. Not only was it published by baptists in the 1600's but the current form of it is from C.H. Spurgeon... perhaps you have heard of him.

Southern Baptists came about in the 1800's in response to the slave holding issue as they had certain evangelists that were slave holders and the other Baptists in America did not approve of that.

Southern Baptist Seminary Confronts History Of Slaveholding And 'Deep Racism'

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dale]

Nice quote.. thanks


Here is another one

Gen 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 16
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Ex 20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Mark 2:27 "Sabbath was made for mankind"



A great example insulting her and combining it with a statement of her view. And the Bible texts are??... of ... no interest? for this thread??



No text I quoted says "the 7th moon is the Sabbath" or "the seventh day after the new moon is the new weekly Sabbath" so then ... lacking that... how did your post swing so wildly off the point??

We are not "surprised" to learn that many Christians attend Sunday services as being "the first day of the week" and other Christians (and even Jews) attend Saturday services as "the seventh day" of the week.

Is it your claim that all Christians and Jews are merely following whatever Ellen White says about the days of the week? seriously?

hint: regardless of which year is a leap year -- tuesday is always the next day after monday. This is an irrefutable fact that almost everyone knows.

Bob Ryan: << Mark 2:27 "Sabbath was made for mankind" >>


"The Sabbath was made for man" means that the Sabbath is labor law. It is a mechanism for seeing that everyone gets a day off from endless work. It doesn't mean that God loves people who rest (or worship) on one day of the week and despises people who rest (or worship) on another day of the week.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan: << Mark 2:27 "Sabbath was made for mankind" >>

"The Sabbath was made for man" means that the Sabbath is labor law. It is a mechanism for seeing that everyone gets a day off from endless work. It doesn't mean that God loves people who rest (or worship) on one day of the week ...

I am not opposed to creative writing - I just say that I should not be expected to accept it as though it were scripture ... because I have this thing about "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine.

Mark 2:27 is not about Jesus trying to employ someone - on Sabbath.

 

[Dale]

We know Sabbath is Saturday because Hebrews have been keeping that day for a long time.

The Jews were able to change their way of figuring the next Sabbath with the coming of the fixed Jewish calendar and the modern calendar. The Jews are able to adapt because they trust their leaders, the Rabbis.

Seventh Day Adventists say that most Christians are wrong to trust their leaders on the normal day of Christian worship.

 

[BobRyan]

Seventh Day Adventists say that most Christians are wrong to trust their leaders on the normal day of Christian worship.

Interesting that is those very scholars in "most Christian denominations" getting identified in my signature line - as affirming some key Bible details about the Sabbath Commandment - that a few others still struggle to accept.

almost every established denomination says that in each case where they differ with some other denomination on a doctrine -- it is the other denomination that is incorrect and not their own.

How in the world did that get spun around to -- "only SDAs notice that"?

What is more - how did all the other folks posting in favor of the Bible Sabbath get discounted down to "only SDAs"???

 

[BobRyan]

The Jews were able to change their way of figuring the next Sabbath with the coming of the fixed Jewish calendar and the modern calendar. .

Calendar dates having nothing at all to do with the 7 day weekly cycle.

For example -
In 1582, the length of the year was changed to include the leap year. This changeover resulted in October 1582 having only 21 days! But each week remained the same seven days in length. Thursday, October 4, was followed by Friday, October 15

Conflating calendar date change with weekly cycle changed never worked in all of time -- including each time we change our own calendar for leap year by adding a day to the month of Feb and STILL not changing the days of the week.

 

[Dale]

Interesting that is those very scholars in "most Christian denominations" getting identified in my signature line - as affirming some key Bible details about the Sabbath Commandment - that a few others still struggle to accept.

almost every established denomination says that in each case where they differ with some other denomination on a doctrine -- it is the other denomination that is incorrect and not their own.

How in the world did that get spun around to -- "only SDAs notice that"?

What is more - how did all the other folks posting in favor of the Bible Sabbath get discounted down to "only SDAs"???

You are making things up. I have never used the phrase "only SDAs" and this is the first time I've ever seen it.

 

[Dale]

Calendar dates having nothing at all to do with the 7 day weekly cycle.

For example -
In 1582, the length of the year was changed to include the leap year. This changeover resulted in October 1582 having only 21 days! But each week remained the same seven days in length. Thursday, October 4, was followed by Friday, October 15

Conflating calendar date change with weekly cycle changed never worked in all of time -- including each time we change our own calendar for leap year by adding a day to the month of Feb and STILL not changing the days of the week.

On the calendar we use today, the Gregorian calendar, days of the week are asunder from days of the month. Weeks and months are in separate compartments that have nothing to do with each other.

As the ancient Israelites reckoned time, there were no weeks independent of the month. Days of the week were figured from the first day of the month, determined by the new moon. Your argument doesn't hold water.

 

[bbbbbbb]

On the calendar we use today, the Gregorian calendar, days of the week are asunder from days of the month. Weeks and months are in separate compartments that have nothing to do with each other.

As the ancient Israelites reckoned time, there were no weeks independent of the month. Days of the week were figured from the first day of the month, determined by the new moon. Your argument doesn't hold water.

George Eastman, founder and owner of Eastman Photography, not only became a very wealthy industrialist, but also determined to eliminate the vast confusion of our calendars. In place of our calendar he instituted a thirteen-month calendar with each month having exactly four weeks of seven days each. That left one extra day at the end of the year or two in a leap year. Logically, he called his days First Day, Second Day, Third Day through Seventh Day. Likewise he called his months First Month, Second Month, through Thirteenth Month. He put this calendar into effect for his company, allowing for the various holidays which showed up on his calendar at various intervals. It actually worked extremely well, but never caught on.