No dude ... IT IS WRONG

[sageoffools]

Honestly, I don't think any 1 denomination is correct. They are probably all wrong in some way & all correct in some way.

Except mine, of course!

 

[sageoffools]

Hey sage - I love your disclaimer

I just noticed it - my comment has nothing to do with this thread.

Thanks, sadly, it's true.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Thanks, sadly, it's true.

That may be the best signature ever

 

[Cromwe11]

I can't even answer this without getting upset. Thank you for belittling my beliefs.

its hard to have your beliefs challenged. I am pretty convinced though that Word of Faith teaching is very bad and has a lot of deception. I can't sit here and tell you your beliefs are fine when according to what I see in the bible and what God has shown me over the years, they are significantly comprimised

 

[Tenebrae]

I was a part of a church that had a heavy emphasis on tithing and the idea that God would bless us the more we gave

No one was ever physically forced to give, however there used to be much emotional and mental coercion to give. There would be testimonies about how people had tacked their prayer requests to their tithes and offerings, and how God had given their desires because they gave, countless stories about how God would only bless those who gave.

I remember once being taken to task because my tithe amount fluctuated, it didnt matter to them that I was on a fluctuating income

 

[sageoffools]

I was a part of a church that had a heavy emphasis on tithing and the idea that God would bless us the more we gave

No one was ever physically forced to give, however there used to be much emotional and mental coercion to give. There would be testimonies about how people had tacked their prayer requests to their tithes and offerings, and how God had given their desires because they gave, countless stories about how God would only bless those who gave.

I remember once being taken to task because my tithe amount fluctuated, it didnt matter to them that I was on a fluctuating income

See, this, sadly, happens so often. I had a non-Christian co-worker that wanted to get her baby baptized, but the church she went to required copies of each members W4's so they could keep track of how much each person gave.
We never passed an offering plate at our church, nor was there any coercion to give. (Personally, I do not see anywhere in the Bible where it tells pastors to coerce people into giving to the church)
Tithing was preached about on occasion, because it is Biblical, but it should be between the person giving and the Lord, not any deacons, or even the pastor.
In our church now, there is only 1 person who actually sees what everyone gives for the year, and that is the person who puts together our giving statements, our pastor never sees the giving, other than the total figures.

 

[Cromwe11]

The central and biggest problem with this whole area is outlined by the verse quoted earlier. Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Another verse applicable would be a man can not serve two masters, for he will hate one and love the other. So man can not serve both God and mammon. Mammon literally means "wealth" or "riches". Man can not serve both God and wealth.

What most of these teachers have done is made everything about their faith serve wealth. Everything focuses on wealth in the here and now. The result is that many of their other teachings have been twisted away from the bible, in order to support their error here.

I believe that if we are obedient and if we are giving (which is a factor of being obedient) God will bless us as he sees fit.
What has been done with this basic teaching is that it is twisted totally out of place and made literally the central doctrine of faith. Further, the motivation for giving, rather than things like love of God and love of your fellow man, or even simple obedience, is turned into greed. You give because you want something. You give so that you can have more. Frankly, thats a disgusting perversion of what the bible actually teaches. The truth is if you are giving out of greed, you might as well not give at all.

There is also a principle involved here that these guys totally miss. One of Jesus' criticisms of the pharisees was that they loved honor and positions of power and respect in society. Thus when they did their religious observances, they weren't doing them out of love for God, but rather out of love of honor. Jesus said, "ok, they have their reward here and now, but they will get no reward in heaven". God allowed them to get the honor that they wanted, but they got none of God.

It is the same for those who follow this teaching of seeking wealth and prosperity in the here and now. If that is what you love, you probably will get it, but you won't get God.

In the bible Jesus talks about leaven (or yeast) and he says that a little leaven, leavens the entire loaf. The point being once you allow embrace a little deception, a little rebellion, it quickly spreads through everything. This is why so many of the word of faith teachers have significant problems with their practices, and also their teachings.

Their teachings range from minor distortions through serious flaws and in some cases approach outright heresy.
But it all begins with the fact that they are persuing their own version of the gospel.

 

[rmw8855]

wow - I can't believe they wanted to see your W4's.

I agree your giving should be between you and God. I was also taught that your tithe doesn't have to go to your church - it can go where ever you are fed the word (your church, bible study, a ministry, etc.). I pray over my tithe and ask for God's guidance on where to send it each week. Sometimes God puts churches, ministries under correction for whatever reason & the quickest way to get someones attention is with money.

I was also taught to have my check ready before I ever set foot in the church or meeting. That way emotions have no influence on my giving. If I am supposed to give a larger amount, then God is perfectly capable of telling me that in advance.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

This is a very valid, interesting discussion, but please can we all make sure we remain respectful of the beliefs and denominations of others ​

 

[IamRedeemed]

Amen rmw8855.



Side note:
For the record, I don't think it was his church that bought the Rolls Royce but a person. I don't recall if that person was or wasn't a member, but I do recall it was a gift and there is no reason he can't have it. (he has had it for probably 10 years now too.) Why do people think that the good things of the earth are for those OUTSIDE the Kingdom? Money is not the root of all evil. The LOVE OF money is. We need money. God knows it. He knows what we have need of before we even ask. But guess what? The Word also says, "you have not because you ask not".

Let's face it. If your motive for wanting to have an abundance is just so you can flaunt it somewhere, chances are, you'll never see much of it. But if we have the heart of God, we would not want it for anything other than for the right reasons....to give, to help, to supply, to relieve, to rescue etc.
It is also written that God gives seed to the sower. Does any of Creflo's accusers know that he is not a sower? Can you prove that God has not increased him because he is a cheerful giver? That he doesn't reap abundantly because he sows abundantly? The law of sowing a reaping and God giving seed to the sower, apply to Christian and Atheist alike. There are atheists just as well as Christians who give to very important causes and God increases their seed because they sow it and they sow it generously.

I have heard Creflo Dollar preach on a number of occasions and I can tell you that he preaches a lot more than the fact that the King's kids shouldn't be begging for bread.

PS. the King's kids shouldn't be begging for bread just fyi. The King's kids (whose father owns the cattle on a thousand hills) should have bread overflowing from their storehouses to feed the hungry outside the King's gates.

I don't think we know all of the facts on this and it is never a good idea to make assumptions. I do know most of these ministers are given a salary & answer to a board of directors. They also make additional money as speakers. As long as that income is reported and taxed, it is their business how they choose to spend it. If they were a CEO for a large corporation (which all of these ministries are), no one would question the size of their salary.

I do question what ax this particular senator has to grind though. If there is any doubt about their tax exempt status that is for the IRS to decide, not the senate.


(Admitted bias - I am WOF and have heard most of these ministers speak)

 

[Tenebrae]

Knowing another trick of a spiritually abusive church

There is a small number of people in the inner circle, while the vast number of the congregation are in the outer circle desperate to get closer. Those in the inner circle are desperately trying to retain their position, hence the presents and the honouring of the Pastor.


They get all these nice things, and if anyone calls them on it, then they get to say "But my congregation did it"


(FYI this post is based on my experience and should not be taken as a blanket statement against all churches)

 

[Criada]

Knowing another trick of a spiritually abusive church

There is a small number of people in the inner circle, while the vast number of the congregation are in the outer circle desperate to get closer. Those in the inner circle are desperately trying to retain their position, hence the presents and the honouring of the Pastor.


They get all these nice things, and if anyone calls them on it, then they get to say "But my congregation did it"


(FYI this post is based on my experience and should not be taken as a blanket statement against all churches)

Sounds like a pretty nasty experience!

 

[Cromwe11]

Amen rmw8855.



Side note:
For the record, I don't think it was his church that bought the Rolls Royce but a person. I don't recall if that person was or wasn't a member, but I do recall it was a gift and there is no reason he can't have it. (he has had it for probably 10 years now too.) Why do people think that the good things of the earth are for those OUTSIDE the Kingdom? Money is not the root of all evil. The LOVE OF money is. We need money. God knows it. He knows what we have need of before we even ask. But guess what? The Word also says, "you have not because you ask not".

Let's face it. If your motive for wanting to have an abundance is just so you can flaunt it somewhere, chances are, you'll never see much of it. But if we have the heart of God, we would not want it for anything other than for the right reasons....to give, to help, to supply, to relieve, to rescue etc.
It is also written that God gives seed to the sower. Does any of Creflo's accusers know that he is not a sower? Can you prove that God has not increased him because he is a cheerful giver? That he doesn't reap abundantly because he sows abundantly? The law of sowing a reaping and God giving seed to the sower, apply to Christian and Atheist alike. There are atheists just as well as Christians who give to very important causes and God increases their seed because they sow it and they sow it generously.

I have heard Creflo Dollar preach on a number of occasions and I can tell you that he preaches a lot more than the fact that the King's kids shouldn't be begging for bread.

PS. the King's kids shouldn't be begging for bread just fyi. The King's kids (whose father owns the cattle on a thousand hills) should have bread overflowing from their storehouses to feed the hungry outside the King's gates.

there are good examples here of some of the twisted nature of the teachings of these people.

First is the common concept of "sowing seed". This is one that the prosperity teachers have ripped out of context and totally changed. The sowing spoken of in the bible is in the context of spreading the word of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with donating money, or material wealth. They have substituted the idea that if you give money, you will get more money, in place of the idea that if you spread the word of God and proclaim the gospel, God will use that to bring in a harvest of souls to his glory.

Another good one is "you have not because you ask not" true.. but it also says "you have not because you ASK WRONGLY".
This gets at the very heart of much of the prosperity teaching and the "faith" teaching. They teach that God honors our will. We ask for what we want and God will give it to us if we have faith. We decree the reality that we want to see come to pass and God will accomplish it for us. All of their teaching on our identity in Christ, such as Copelands famous "we are little gods" teaching focuses on the idea that because of who we are in Christ we have the right to exercise OUR will and see OUR will done.
When they do talk about God's will it is always to say that God's will for us, is... exactly what we want. His will for us is money and comfortable living.
This is not remotely what the bible says and it usually results in very arrogant presumptuous self indulgent Christians.

This is very plainly seen in the way a lot of these guys talk about spiritual warfare. They talk about how they got the devil on the run with his tail between his legs and they tell the devil where its at up one side and down the other. The book of Jude refers to people like that as "Vile Dreamers" people who are deluded and operating in their own flesh.

The whole point of Christianity is to learn obedience and submission to God so that we can have relationship with him forever, that he can be our exceedingly great reward. This is almost the opposite of what many of these guys teach, which is mostly about self exaltation and as Joel Osteen says "Live your best life now". If you want your best life now, you'll probably get your best life now.. but that doesn't say much for your life in the age to come.

 

[Tenebrae]

Sounds like a pretty nasty experience!

It was rather hairy

It was people on this website that stopped me writing God off completely

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Prosperity gospel? Give me a break. I'd much rather have other things. This is from a "spirit-filled" branch too? What about the persecuted church? I don't know everything, but man this seems fishy.

 

[IamRedeemed]

The Biblical promises of God I spoke of regarding sowing and reaping and God giving
seeds to those who sow have nothing to do with sowing INTO a ministry or
into a Particular ministry. (not that there is anything wrong with sowing into a ministry.)

God does not operate that way. I am not saying that there aren't ministries out there who
are teaching falsely and selling healings and prostituting other gifts of God.

There are plenty of people who God blesses because they give to people who
have need. They see a need and they cheerfully give. God sees these things
you don't need a preacher anywhere to tell you to do them, if you have a heart after
the things of God.

The so called "twisted concepts" are in God's Word, they are HIS promises,
not man's concepts, and are applicable to atheist and Christian alike.

Again, the pure of heart will not ask for Cadillacs and mansions,
but that doesn't mean they won't get them.

What I have said on Creflo Dollar's behalf is that I have seen him preach plenty more
besides the fact that the King's kids should not be begging bread and he lives what he preaches.
Mike Murdock on the other hand, I would run as far away from him as I could get if I were you.

God bless

there are good examples here of some of the twisted nature of the teachings of these people.

First is the common concept of "sowing seed". This is one that the prosperity teachers have ripped out of context and totally changed. The sowing spoken of in the bible is in the context of spreading the word of God, the gospel of Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with donating money, or material wealth. They have substituted the idea that if you give money, you will get more money, in place of the idea that if you spread the word of God and proclaim the gospel, God will use that to bring in a harvest of souls to his glory.

Another good one is "you have not because you ask not" true.. but it also says "you have not because you ASK WRONGLY".
This gets at the very heart of much of the prosperity teaching and the "faith" teaching. They teach that God honors our will. We ask for what we want and God will give it to us if we have faith. We decree the reality that we want to see come to pass and God will accomplish it for us. All of their teaching on our identity in Christ, such as Copelands famous "we are little gods" teaching focuses on the idea that because of who we are in Christ we have the right to exercise OUR will and see OUR will done.
When they do talk about God's will it is always to say that God's will for us, is... exactly what we want. His will for us is money and comfortable living.
This is not remotely what the bible says and it usually results in very arrogant presumptuous self indulgent Christians.

This is very plainly seen in the way a lot of these guys talk about spiritual warfare. They talk about how they got the devil on the run with his tail between his legs and they tell the devil where its at up one side and down the other. The book of Jude refers to people like that as "Vile Dreamers" people who are deluded and operating in their own flesh.

The whole point of Christianity is to learn obedience and submission to God so that we can have relationship with him forever, that he can be our exceedingly great reward. This is almost the opposite of what many of these guys teach, which is mostly about self exaltation and as Joel Osteen says "Live your best life now". If you want your best life now, you'll probably get your best life now.. but that doesn't say much for your life in the age to come.

 

[IamRedeemed]

As it is written, in 3 John 1:2, "I wish above all things that you would prosper even as your soul prospers."

And Jesus said, "what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?"
Matthew 16:26, Luke 9:25

Obviously our souls are the most important thing and our relationship with the Lord.
That should be already understood.

Jesus also said, "but seek ye first the kingdom of God AND all its righteousness,
and these things will be added unto you."Matthew 6:33

It is good to have so you can give. The druglords aren't going to be the
ones to do it. And the needy and hungry should be able to come to the people
of God and find help. No need to despise abundance. Despise rather the
temptations to do things with the abundance that would not bring glory
to God or would be detrimental to your spiritual health and would not
bring blessing to those in need around you.

God bless.

Prosperity gospel? Give me a break. I'd much rather have other things. This is from a "spirit-filled" branch too? What about the persecuted church? I don't know everything, but man this seems fishy.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Amen, Synger. Very good post.

I think that wealth in and of itself is not a problem. And it is consistent with his teaching of the prosperity gospel -- that God loves us and wants to shower us with good things, including physical health and material wealth.

That being said, I think anyone who is called to be a Christian and is wealthy should expect to be scrutinized carefully, especially when they are a Pastor. The Scriptures are full of commands and directions for us to give to the poor and needy, and to the work of the Church. Now, granted, his denomination may expect their ministers to be fairly wealthy (since "prosperity" is part of what they teach), so it may be normal for him to have nice clothes and house and car, etc.

But I would also expect him to give greatly of the abundance that God has given him. So articles like this, that only focus on one aspect, can't give us the full picture.

Still, I respect more those pastors who live modestly and give generously. (My Pastor doesn't handle the money is his family... his wife takes care of such things.. because he'd give it ALL away if he could. *grins*)

 

[JPPT1974]

We need to give as much as
The Lord will have us to give
Remember ask yourselves "What would Jesus do indeed?"
I would rather give my whole soul over to Jesus
Not the world but for Christ's gain in me.

 

[Auntie]

You've got to be kidding me!



That last quote has to win the Dodge and Weave of the Year award. Because yah dude, I can totally see Jesus driving to His throne come Judgement Day in His Maserati. I hope Jesus forgives you Creflo, because I think you're a lying sack of poop who deserves every poke in your derriere with a flaming pitchfork you got coming to you. Especially seeing how many of your "congregation" are probably elderly and shut-ins.

Agreed.