No conviction of sin

[losthope]

To joey down under.

You wrote this:
Did you find the [Alpha] course helpful?

I do not think that I learned much about Christianity at the Alpha courses I have been to, probably because I was already familiar with the basics of the Christian faith. I did meet some great people. However, I think that some of them were a little frustrated because I did not find God as a result of the courses. To the point where, when I recently met one person who led an Alpha course about 15 years ago, he just noted that I was still in the same situation and walked off.

I think that any christian in your pretty unusual situation would need to be incredibly strong in their faith. They would need to trust that despite never getting sudden insight or experiences like others describe that God still loves them and understands them as the unique individual they are. Psalm 139

You are absolutely right. In that situation you do have to be incredibly strong in your faith. And I was, for as long as I could hold onto my faith despite the doubts that grew steadily with every month that went past with apparently no response from God. I had only my own strength to do it, because I had received nothing from God that I was aware of, and eventually my own strength was not enough and I had to recognise that although I had been a believer, there was a good chance that I was not really a Christian, and so I gave up my faith. Some Christians have suggested that I should have hung on for longer and that God would have responded eventually. Maybe, but I remain convinced that giving up my faith was the correct decision for me at the time.

I understand the message of Psalm 139, but if God fails to respond, it eventually becomes merely wishful thinking.

How long was Moses in your situation? Moses and 40 Long Years

Moses was in the wilderness for 40 years, where according to the link, God was preparing him for being a leader of the Israelites to lead them out of Egypt. I do not see myself as a special person like Moses ... but if I am, then I have only been waiting for 37 years. Another three years before I come to my “burning bush”.

Being guided by the Holy spirit does not mean feeling guided by the Holy Spirit. What is a christian supposed to grow in? 2 Peter 3:18 , Ephesians 4:10-16. Is there any mention of feelings there?

2 Peter 3:18 says about growing in grace. Ephesians 4:16 says “when each part is working properly”. There is some work that God would have to do on me before I am ready. This is not about feeling guided by the Holy Spirit. It is about recognising the fruits of the Holy Spirit in your life – and unfortunately there were no signs of the Holy Spirit working in me.

Hint: love is more than a feeling..... I know those thoughtless words have wounded you. Can you mentally take a step back and remember that these people feel things unlike yourself?

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are trying to tell me here.

I thought that your feeling (seeming?) separated from God and the resulting depression from that fitted the message of that sermon perfectly. I was inwardly smiling while listening to it, thinking of yours and my situation and how much I wanted you to be helped by it too - all at the same time. But then I do have my feeling side, even though it can be my own worst enemy at times.

There were many good things in that message about depression. Not least the examples of major Bible figures who suffered from depression. Also the call for depression to be recognised by Christians and not ignored, and for depressed Christians not to be criticised.

Depression can rob a person of their faith, or at least make them unable to receive the kind of spiritual experiences that formerly helped to boost their faith. Conversely, real or apparent loss of contact with God can make a person depressed.

Maybe I did not think it all applied to me because my depression has an organic cause. It means that I do not get the symptoms of worthlessness and low self-esteem that are normally classic symptoms of depression. Possibly this is also related to why I do not get a real sense of being a sinner.

In previous times I would have been worrying and trying to find out what God's will was and trying to find everything out whether by information, looking for signs or by feeling God's annointing etc. Exactly what that preacher condemned because christians are supposed to be trusting in God. If christians seek to learn more than God wants us to we really are rebelling against Him.
Can you tell me what points you disagreed with [in the message]?

The speaker distinguished between two types of the will of God, without giving (for me) an adequate rational or Biblical explanation for this. He then built his ideas on what I saw as a shaky foundation.

What he condemned was the idea of Christians trying to find out in advance what God would want them to be doing at some time in the future. But that is very different from a Christian wanting to find out what God wants them to be doing right now.

When I did a course on “hearing God” a few years ago, it included a list of ways of finding out if something was God’s will or not. The preacher made no mention of the majority of these – though he perhaps rightly condemned the way that some Christians use only one or two of these ways instead of being more thorough.

With regard to the possibility of you moving to a mining town in the tropics, I cannot offer you my prayers but I can wish you the best possible outcome. Even in this small country, one mining town is not necessarily like another; they vary enormously.

Right now I am trying to do what the Israelites did to comfort themselves. They remembered what God had done for them and how He always kept His promises. Exodus 15 Psalm 136 It is really hard though.

I am glad that you are able to do that. Being selfish, think what it must be like for a person who has no awareness of anything that God has done for them and who has never experienced God’s promises coming to pass.

 

[joey_downunder]

I do not think that I learned much about Christianity at the Alpha courses I have been to, probably because I was already familiar with the basics of the Christian faith.

yes that type of course seems very good for beginning christians or for those who haven't been taught well by their pastors.

To the point where, when I recently met one person who led an Alpha course about 15 years ago, he just noted that I was still in the same situation and walked off.

I can picture that - and I want to slap him or box his ears or knock some sense into him.

I had only my own strength to do it, because I had received nothing from God that I was aware of, and eventually my own strength was not enough and I had to recognise that although I had been a believer, there was a good chance that I was not really a Christian, and so I gave up my faith.

Yes there is no way we can please God in our own strength. I also have read somewhere that christians can fall into two errors there:
1. delude themselves that they are measuring up to God's standards (an all perfect Being who has never sinned!), and become proud and judgemental of others
2. realise they will never measure up and become full of despair - so full of despair they turn away from God.
I just remembered this ebook for you: Parodies of Piety I think you fit "The Scarecrow Who Tried to Commit Suicide" story.

Some Christians have suggested that I should have hung on for longer and that God would have responded eventually. Maybe, but I remain convinced that giving up my faith was the correct decision for me at the time.

That is exactly what I was talking about when I said "faith in faith". Your faith was strong when you believed your faith was real. Your faith was weak when you believed your faith was weak (or why else wouldn't you be hearing from God?), your faith disappeared because you believed you had no faith (otherwise you would have had prayers answered or seen some move of God). Where was your faith in God Himself? The actual Being who created you?

I understand the message of Psalm 139, but if God fails to respond, it eventually becomes merely wishful thinking.

Where is in the Bible there a guarantee that believers in God will communicate with us directly as He did to the Old Testament prophets or the apostles who walked with Jesus personally for 3 years?

Moses was in the wilderness for 40 years, where according to the link, God was preparing him for being a leader of the Israelites to lead them out of Egypt. I do not see myself as a special person like Moses ... but if I am, then I have only been waiting for 37 years. Another three years before I come to my “burning bush”.

And in this lifetime you may never see (or feel) a "burning bush" from God. Moses was a unique man for a unique time for a unique people. Would you really want to have to go through what Moses did? Christians have it so easy by comparison. All we need to hear or read is in the Bible.

2 Peter 3:18 says about growing in grace. Ephesians 4:16 says “when each part is working properly”. There is some work that God would have to do on me before I am ready. This is not about feeling guided by the Holy Spirit. It is about recognising the fruits of the Holy Spirit in your life – and unfortunately there were no signs of the Holy Spirit working in me.

ephesians 4:1-16 What is that section called? The body of Christ or the (spiritual) body of the christian? A christian has a unique role to play in their church. Remember 1 corinthians 12
Some parts in the body have very little feeling you know. Think of fingernails, eyelashes, hair - no feeling in those hairs themselves - it is the nerve cells that feel the pain when hair is pulled out. However those hairs are so important for insulation and protection.

am sorry but I do not understand what you are trying to tell me here.

I was referring to the insensitivity of that remark. Yes I am a very feeling creature. I'll come back to the rest of your response later on.

 

[joey_downunder]

I did not think it all applied to me because my depression has an organic cause. It means that I do not get the symptoms of worthlessness and low self-esteem that are normally classic symptoms of depression. Possibly this is also related to why I do not get a real sense of being a sinner.

There would have been some parts referring to christians feeling abandoned by God that you would think were irrelevant to you because you have never even felt God's presence etc.

The speaker distinguished between two types of the will of God, without giving (for me) an adequate rational or Biblical explanation for this. He then built his ideas on what I saw as a shaky foundation.

So you would have preferred more Bible quotes to show when he was stating his own opinion and when it was actually supported directly by the Bible? You should leave him some feedback for some constructive criticism. He would probably be thrilled learning an agnostic had listened to him as well.

What he condemned was the idea of Christians trying to find out in advance what God would want them to be doing at some time in the future. But that is very different from a Christian wanting to find out what God wants them to be doing right now.

I think his focus was on what christians were NOT supposed to do i.e. use occult methods to seek God's will. As he said the study of the Bible would lead to the renewing of the mind and learning what God actually commands for us. Doing that would give far more insight and clarity of thought than looking for supernatural signs that lined up with and excused our secret and often sinful desires.

When I did a course on “hearing God” a few years ago, it included a list of ways of finding out if something was God’s will or not. The preacher made no mention of the majority of these – though he perhaps rightly condemned the way that some Christians use only one or two of these ways instead of being more thorough.

That's interesting - which extra ways of "hearing" God did the preacher you listened to recommend?

With regard to the possibility of you moving to a mining town in the tropics, I cannot offer you my prayers but I can wish you the best possible outcome. Even in this small country, one mining town is not necessarily like another; they vary enormously.

Yes I am hoping (assuming my husband gets the job) that this mining town on the East Coast is nothing like the town on the West Coast. The only thing I missed were the lovely open WA people. Big city folk are far too reserved and cautious in comparison. At least it won't be the hottest climate in Australia this time.

I am glad that you are able to do that. Being selfish, think what it must be like for a person who has no awareness of anything that God has done for them and who has never experienced God’s promises coming to pass.

It is not easy for me - my natural temperament (or the flesh) is to worry and be anxious over things I can't control.
Read this passage Romans 8:31-39 - and for you personally add "nor lack of feelings/experiences/outward appearances of spiritual growth, nor doubt, nor criticism from outsiders who don't understand my situation..."

 

[losthope]

To joey down under.

You wrote this in response to my comment:
"I recently met one person who led an Alpha course about 15 years ago, he just noted that I was still in the same situation and walked off."
I can picture that - and I want to slap him or box his ears or knock some sense into him.

I don’t think that his congregation would approve of you slapping their senior pastor.

Yes there is no way we can please God in our own strength. I also have read somewhere that christians can fall into two errors there:
1. delude themselves that they are measuring up to God's standards (an all perfect Being who has never sinned!), and become proud and judgemental of others
2. realise they will never measure up and become full of despair - so full of despair they turn away from God.

I have met both types. Fortunately, not very many of them.

I just remembered this ebook for you: Parodies of Piety I think you fit "The Scarecrow Who Tried to Commit Suicide" story.

I will read it when I have the opportunity. Strange story title, though.

That is exactly what I was talking about when I said "faith in faith". Your faith was strong when you believed your faith was real. Your faith was weak when you believed your faith was weak (or why else wouldn't you be hearing from God?), your faith disappeared because you believed you had no faith (otherwise you would have had prayers answered or seen some move of God). Where was your faith in God Himself? The actual Being who created you?

I do not think that my experience was like this “faith in faith” model that you suggest. It was not that I believed that I had no faith. It was more a recognition that something was wrong with my faith. I had faith plus strong doubts about my salvation.

Where is in the Bible there a guarantee that believers in God will communicate with us directly as He did to the Old Testament prophets or the apostles who walked with Jesus personally for 3 years?

That was not what I was expecting. I was expecting some kind of response from God, because that is what other Christians told me they had received, often many times. But I left it for God to choose how to respond.

Some parts in the body have very little feeling you know. Think of fingernails, eyelashes, hair - no feeling in those hairs themselves - it is the nerve cells that feel the pain when hair is pulled out. However those hairs are so important for insulation and protection.

I think that might be taking the analogy in Ephesians 4 a little too far.

There would have been some parts referring to christians feeling abandoned by God that you would think were irrelevant to you because you have never even felt God's presence etc.

Some Christians say that the worst thing about hell would be the separation from God. So I can quite understand why a person who feels abandoned by God would be very depressed.

As he said the study of the Bible would lead to the renewing of the mind and learning what God actually commands for us. Doing that would give far more insight and clarity of thought than looking for supernatural signs that lined up with and excused our secret and often sinful desires.

If you read the Bible without having a renewed mind, then maybe the Bible does not teach you very much. I always thought that it sometimes needed the action of the Holy Spirit to reveal the spiritual meaning of some passages in the Bible.

Studying the Bible is not enough. Unfortunately there are many Christians who study the Bible and find something there to excuse their secret and often sinful desires.

That's interesting - which extra ways of "hearing" God did the preacher you listened to recommend?

I was afraid you might ask me that. I will have to search out the information, because it is at least 6 years since I did the course.

Read this passage Romans 8:31-39 - and for you personally add "nor lack of feelings/experiences/outward appearances of spiritual growth, nor doubt, nor criticism from outsiders who don't understand my situation..."

I agree that lack of feelings, experiences, outward appearances of spiritual growth, doubt and criticism from others are not in themselves separating me from the love of God. The trouble is, something is separating me from the love of God. The things that you listed are just symptoms of whatever the “something” is that is separating me from God. In a sense I see my current spiritual journey as trying to identify what that “something” is, and then dealing with it.

 

[joey_downunder]

I don’t think that his congregation would approve of you slapping their senior pastor.

I need a ROFL symbol. That is a classic....

I will read it when I have the opportunity. Strange story title, though.

The complete book is part cartoon, part metaphor, part explanation. I was hoping to see a cartoon that mentioned seeking guidance and responses to prayer too much but a lot of the other descriptions might interest you. The book identifies errors christians make quite bluntly but lovingly at the same time.

It was more a recognition that something was wrong with my faith. I had faith plus strong doubts about my salvation.

Many christians have strong doubts about their salvation including myself. That is why it is so important to take our eyes off ourself and keep them on Christ. Hebrews 12:1-2 See what the writer says christians have to do first. How can we keep our eyes on Christ if we insist on carrying all the burdens and problems we don't need to?

I was expecting some kind of response from God, because that is what other Christians told me they had received, often many times. But I left it for God to choose how to respond.

God may have responded- can you give a couple of general examples of responses you believed you needed that would have helped your faith?

I think that might be taking the analogy in Ephesians 4 a little too far.

I should have put the 1 corinthians 12 link there.

Some Christians say that the worst thing about hell would be the separation from God. So I can quite understand why a person who feels abandoned by God would be very depressed.

And do you feel abandoned by God because you have always felt separated?

If you read the Bible without having a renewed mind, then maybe the Bible does not teach you very much. I always thought that it sometimes needed the action of the Holy Spirit to reveal the spiritual meaning of some passages in the Bible.

1. How do you think you would know if you had a renewed mind?
2. Do you think you have learnt much from the Bible?
3. How do you think you would know if the Holy Spirit had spoken to you personally through reading the Bible?

Studying the Bible is not enough. Unfortunately there are many Christians who study the Bible and find something there to excuse their secret and often sinful desires.

Yes that is very true. jeremiah 17:9-10 That is a very good reason for christians to not isolate themselves from others and form communities. That way they are challenged as well as strengthened by other christians.

I was afraid you might ask me that. I will have to search out the information, because it is at least 6 years since I did the course.

Of course I have to make you do your homework! How about you just have make a general list of what you had learnt and expand on that further?

The trouble is, something is separating me from the love of God. The things that you listed are just symptoms of whatever the “something” is that is separating me from God. In a sense I see my current spiritual journey as trying to identify what that “something” is, and then dealing with it.

That is fair enough. Your situation is very challenging. Do you believe God is strong enough to identify what that something is for you? Romans 10:5-12 Do you believe that verses 9 and 10 apply to you (even though in this lifetime you may never feel or see any sign of that at all)?

 

[saralynn]

Now that I think about it, I have never felt convicted of my own sin. Not that I imagine I don't sin; I just think I'm about average in the sin department. This comes from reading good literature during my impressionable years. I realized fairly early that most sins are universal and it makes sense to repent and not repeat them, but to bask in guilt is a form of egoism.

The crux of the problem (no pun intended) is struggling against becoming a repeat offender, in which case, admitting your powerlessness over sin and surrendering to God can be very useful, as many 12 Step Programs demonstrate. I don't think you need to beat your breast and proclaim your vileness, however.

I have to admit that I am fascinated by your declared absence of emotion, Lost Hope. When I consider my own emotions, which seem to be muted in comparison to most people I know, they prove to be reliable friends in some instances and untrustworthy villains in others. My own faith has never been built on a foundation of emotion because moods are too vacillating and childish.

I am not trying to rile people up by mentioning Hinduism, but, one thing I like about their belief system is that they emphasize that there are different forms of worship for different kinds of aspirants. Jnana Yoga is the path of understanding reality through knowledge, Bhakti Yoga is the path of devotion to a particular God, Karma Yoga is the path of service, and Raja yoga is the path of detachment, prayer and meditation.

I think the varied branches of Christian monasticism reflect a similar diversity, as do the large number of Christian denominations in existence. An Episcopalian is usually quite different in temperament than a Pentacostal.

What I'm trying to say is that you seem to be comparing yourself to one form of Christian, when, in actuality, there are a wide variety of to select from Some Jesuits are quite intellectual to the point of having scientifically objective mindsets, but, they still feel comfortable calling themselves Christians. Why can't you?

 

[losthope]

To joey down under.

The link that you gave to the story about the scarecrow did not work, but I searched for the story and read it. Not really me though.

You wrote this:
Many christians have strong doubts about their salvation including myself. That is why it is so important to take our eyes off ourself and keep them on Christ. Hebrews 12:1-2 See what the writer says christians have to do first. How can we keep our eyes on Christ if we insist on carrying all the burdens and problems we don't need to?

In Hebrews 12:1 it speaks of having a great cloud of witnesses. To me that implies that doubts about salvation were very far from the mind of the writer when it was written. As for keeping eyes on Christ, it would be great to do that, but if there is a doubt about salvation, shouldn’t that be dealt with?

God may have responded- can you give a couple of general examples of responses you believed you needed that would have helped your faith?

I would prefer to say that there were responses that I expected that would have helped my faith. It was only when they failed to happen that I realised that they were needed. What type of things? Having a prayer answered. Being changed by the Holy Spirit. Understanding spiritual truths.

And do you feel abandoned by God because you have always felt separated?

I do not have a relationship with God. I seem to be far from God, separated from God. But I do not know the reason. Being abandoned by God is one possibility (for example, because my name is not written in the book of life) but there are other possibilities.

1. How do you think you would know if you had a renewed mind?

Not sure. It may be one of those things that I would recognise when it happened.

2. Do you think you have learnt much from the Bible?

I have learned a lot about the Bible and what is in the Bible, from reading and hearing the Bible. Have I learned much that affects my daily life? No.

3. How do you think you would know if the Holy Spirit had spoken to you personally through reading the Bible?

Again it may be something that I would only recognise when it happened. However, my expectation would that it would be something like other Christians have told me about, when they were reading the Bible and they say that the Holy Spirit showed them a special meaning of a passage, or when they suddenly understood some spiritual truth. Although it could be in some completely different way.

That is fair enough. Your situation is very challenging. Do you believe God is strong enough to identify what that something is for you?

Of course. If God were not strong enough to identify what is preventing me from knowing God, then God would not be worthy of worship.

Romans 10:5-12 Do you believe that verses 9 and 10 apply to you (even though in this lifetime you may never feel or see any sign of that at all)?

When I was a believer I certainly confessed with my mouth that Jesus was Lord, and believed that he was raised from the dead. I remember leading a Bible study session on that very topic. But was I saved back then? Am I saved now? I do not know.

You added the bit about me never feeling or seeing any sign of my salvation in this lifetime. That gives me particular problems. I am not interested in what happens after death. If I cannot know God in this life then I have no interest in Christianity. Promises of eternal life and of heaven are irrelevant to me. It means that if I am saved but never get any sign of it in my lifetime, then it has totally failed to meet my greatest needs. And if a religion does not have the hope of satisfying my greatest needs, it is inappropriate for me.

 

[losthope]

To saralynn.

You wrote this:
The crux of the problem (no pun intended) is struggling against becoming a repeat offender, in which case, admitting your powerlessness over sin and surrendering to God can be very useful, as many 12 Step Programs demonstrate. I don't think you need to beat your breast and proclaim your vileness, however.

It is probably just as well that I do not have a problem that is normally dealt with by a 12 step programme. Because I could not surrender to God or any other higher power, not in my current situation.

I have to admit that I am fascinated by your declared absence of emotion, Lost Hope. When I consider my own emotions, which seem to be muted in comparison to most people I know, they prove to be reliable friends in some instances and untrustworthy villains in others. My own faith has never been built on a foundation of emotion because moods are too vacillating and childish.

From what I have seen of emotions in other people, I agree with you that emotions can be valuable in some situations and a real problem in other situations. It means that not having emotions has its good points and its bad points, as I expect you have noticed.

In my case, my faith has never been built on a foundation of emotion because I do not have emotions. I wish I did have them – but for that to happen, I would need someone to give me a hormone injection every time something emotional occurred.

I think the varied branches of Christian monasticism reflect a similar diversity, as do the large number of Christian denominations in existence. An Episcopalian is usually quite different in temperament than a Pentacostal.

What I'm trying to say is that you seem to be comparing yourself to one form of Christian, when, in actuality, there are a wide variety of to select from Some Jesuits are quite intellectual to the point of having scientifically objective mindsets, but, they still feel comfortable calling themselves Christians. Why can't you?

You are absolutely right. In my opinion it is a good thing that there are many different Christian denominations, because different denominations suit different types of people and different types of spiritual needs.

My desire was to serve God, the greatest king. However, in order to do this I need guidance from God about just how to serve. I know that there is general guidance in the Bible, but I would also need personal guidance. That implies knowing God. It means that I am attracted to the denominations that stress knowing God, having a relationship with God, getting feedback from God. The trouble is, each denomination is a total package, and I appreciate some parts of the package and am not interested in other parts of the package.

If you, or anyone else reading this, can suggest a church or a denomination that exists in England and would suit my temperament and my needs, and could cope with the fact that I do not have emotions, please let me know.

 

[saralynn]

Losthope: "If you, or anyone else reading this, can suggest a church or a denomination that exists in England and would suit my temperament and my needs, and could cope with the fact that I do not have emotions, please let me know. "

Impossible, The church that would suit your temperament does not fit your needs and vice versa. So....admit you have a disability that must be accepted, give up your unrelenting search for an answer when there is no answer that could satisfy you, and decide to believe in God, to not believe in God, or to waver indefinitely. I'm not sure which denomination to recommend because not only are they different from each other philosophically, but each congregation has its own personality. Try different churches and find the one in which you are most comfortable, embrace the teachings that resonate within you and toss out the teachings that are not applicable. If nothing resonates within you emotionally, then I suppose you will have to rely on an intellectual appreciation, which sometimes can be very satisfying.

 

[joey_downunder]

In Hebrews 12:1 it speaks of having a great cloud of witnesses. To me that implies that doubts about salvation were very far from the mind of the writer when it was written. As for keeping eyes on Christ, it would be great to do that, but if there is a doubt about salvation, shouldn’t that be dealt with?

You are right that the author of Hebrews is one that writes as if he assumes the readers have no doubt about God and salvation. That is especially important for you to read. Faith is what is needed to please God Hebrews 11 . Yes to your next question - you should be finding out what the Bible actually says about salvation. A christian who is saved will have faith in God, will have repented,( i.e. changed mind, direction, choices), and be living to please God not themselves.

I would prefer to say that there were responses that I expected that would have helped my faith. It was only when they failed to happen that I realised that they were needed. What type of things? Having a prayer answered. Being changed by the Holy Spirit. Understanding spiritual truths.

God does not guarantee obvious answers to every prayer. I know this may be frustrating to you but there are 3 answers that God gives to requests: "yes, wait, or no". God sees the whole picture. If God gave us what we wanted 1. we would never grow in maturity (faith, trust, persistence) 2. we would only go to God for gifts not Himself 3. there could be terrible outcomes we did get what we wanted.
I think I said before the changes in you personally may have been very subtle and may (note MAY) always remain subtle. Assuming a tree is self-aware, that tree will not grow any faster by worrying and taking constant measurements and comparing itself with other species that grow extremely fast.
With the spiritual truths side I think you may have already got them but because you haven't felt them or experienced as others describe you assume that you haven't understood them.

I do not have a relationship with God. I seem to be far from God, separated from God. But I do not know the reason. Being abandoned by God is one possibility (for example, because my name is not written in the book of life) but there are other possibilities.

I think you would be far closer to God than many people ever would be if you stopped looking for spiritual experiences to prove your faith and merely believed in Jesus and what He did for you by dying for you on the cross for your sins. Romans 5:1-10

"But I will never experience feelings of peace with God so I cannot know I am a christian" I can imagine you saying. Think of what Jesus said about those who do not believe in God. Matthew 12:30 People who are not friends with God are enemies of God. Through faith in God we are no longer at war with Him, we are at peace with Him.

Not sure. It may be one of those things that I would recognise when it happened.

Do you believe in the Gospel? Do you understand it intellectually and accept it as true? 2 corinthians 4:3-4

I have learned a lot about the Bible and what is in the Bible, from reading and hearing the Bible. Have I learned much that affects my daily life? No.

What parts of your daily life do you think need to change that would prove to yourself that you are a christian?

Again it may be something that I would only recognise when it happened. However, my expectation would that it would be something like other Christians have told me about, when they were reading the Bible and they say that the Holy Spirit showed them a special meaning of a passage, or when they suddenly understood some spiritual truth. Although it could be in some completely different way.

You have listened way too much to other christians who have a strong feeling component to their faith.
To use a personal example: I have two sons that are totally opposite in personality. One has a maths/science mind, serious like my father but with my husband's sense of humour. My other son is feeling, caring, loves art, does silly things like my husband but has my serious side. He is like my Mum's side of the family. I do completely different things with my second son to my first. Should my first son feel unloved if I never do things with him that I do with my second son, since he has no interest in or ability in those things at all?
Same way with you - you are a completely objective, rational, thinking, non-feeling, logical individual. Why do you think God would approach you in ways He does with people who are very feeling and not capable of thinking deeply about things? You need to stop being jealous of christians who are feeling brothers and sisters in Christ. I bet you understand very difficult topics easily and don't realise that you understand it so easily through God giving you that unique ability.

When I was a believer I certainly confessed with my mouth that Jesus was Lord, and believed that he was raised from the dead. I remember leading a Bible study session on that very topic. But was I saved back then? Am I saved now? I do not know.

Do you really believe that because you haven't ever felt the enthusiasm and intimacy that some christians describe that you therefore mustn't be saved or ever had a real faith to begin with? Boy do I feel like I am typing to myself 5 years ago now.

You added the bit about me never feeling or seeing any sign of my salvation in this lifetime. That gives me particular problems. I am not interested in what happens after death. If I cannot know God in this life then I have no interest in Christianity. Promises of eternal life and of heaven are irrelevant to me. It means that if I am saved but never get any sign of it in my lifetime, then it has totally failed to meet my greatest needs. And if a religion does not have the hope of satisfying my greatest needs, it is inappropriate for me.

I thought you would be troubled like that. However I refuse to give you false hope of one day feeling like you have a relationship with God because you say you have never experienced feelings at all. Would knowing that you have a relationship with God be a comfort to you? If you believe in Him you are a child of God. Romans 8:12-17 So don't you ever forget that. You have to trust Jesus and rest in Him. Matthew 11:25-30, Psalm 37

Read this woman's story. Out of touch: A rare disorder affects woman's sense of touch, pain - The York Daily Record She has no sense of pain but is she alive - yes or no? Compare your spiritual life - you have no sense of feeling God, but are you alive - yes or no? If you have faith in God yes you are. 2 Corinthians 5:17

If I met a christian like yourself who still believed in God and lived to please God despite never having any spiritual experience or obvious prayer answered in their life I would actually take their faith far more seriously than many shallow christians whose faith falters as soon as feelings fade away and things start to go wrong.

 

[losthope]

Losthope: "If you, or anyone else reading this, can suggest a church or a denomination that exists in England and would suit my temperament and my needs, and could cope with the fact that I do not have emotions, please let me know. "

Impossible, The church that would suit your temperament does not fit your needs and vice versa. So....admit you have a disability that must be accepted, give up your unrelenting search for an answer when there is no answer that could satisfy you, and decide to believe in God, to not believe in God, or to waver indefinitely. I'm not sure which denomination to recommend because not only are they different from each other philosophically, but each congregation has its own personality. Try different churches and find the one in which you are most comfortable, embrace the teachings that resonate within you and toss out the teachings that are not applicable. If nothing resonates within you emotionally, then I suppose you will have to rely on an intellectual appreciation, which sometimes can be very satisfying.

You are probably right when you say that I am unlikely to find a church that would fit my temperament and my needs. Given the choice, I would go to the church that gave me hope of fulfilling my needs – and I appreciate that such churches do often seem to be rather emotional in their approach and their worship. If it was a church that had so-called worship at the beginning of their meetings, then I would make sure that I arrived late and would go in when the singing stopped. Because that is something I cannot relate to at the moment as an unemotional non-Christian.

I suppose another alternative would be to belong to two churches, one to suit my temperament and one to suit my needs. But I think that would have to wait until I became a believer again, because being an active member of two churches could be rather time-consuming.

I have tried many of the local churches, of various denominations. It is quite true that each has its own personality, whatever the denominational label. I feel more comfortable in some than in others, but there are none where I feel at home. But then, as an unbeliever, I would not expect to feel properly at home in any church.

You suggest that I could decide to believe, or decide not to believe, or waver indefinitely. Over the years I have done all of these things. Though mostly I remain a “don’t know” – and would still like to find out. But I recognise that there are times when I am an active seeker, and times when I mostly forget about it all.

 

[losthope]

To joey down under.

You wrote this:
Faith is what is needed to please God Hebrews 11 . Yes to your next question - you should be finding out what the Bible actually says about salvation. A christian who is saved will have faith in God, will have repented,( i.e. changed mind, direction, choices), and be living to please God not themselves.

I am going to disagree with you in your definition of a Christian. (I am assuming that you do not mean to imply a difference between a Christian and someone who is saved.) What you describe is a person who appears to be a Christian, who appears to be saved, and who may believe themselves that they are saved. However, what you have missed out in your description is the grace of God. My understanding of the Christian message is that it is not enough for a person to believe in God, to repent and to be living to please God. It is virtuous, but it is not necessarily salvation. A person is not saved when they say a prayer for salvation, no matter how sincere they are. A person is only saved when God answers their prayer for salvation. As you write below, God can respond to a prayer with yes, no or wait. Only a yes answer will mean that a person is saved.

You could say that I am still waiting for God to say yes.

God does not guarantee obvious answers to every prayer. I know this may be frustrating to you but there are 3 answers that God gives to requests: "yes, wait, or no". God sees the whole picture. If God gave us what we wanted 1. we would never grow in maturity (faith, trust, persistence) 2. we would only go to God for gifts not Himself 3. there could be terrible outcomes we did get what we wanted.

My understanding is that there are four answers that God can give to requests. The fourth is to give something that is much better than what the person asks for – Ephesians 3:20.

I appreciate why God does not always answer with a yes.

I think I said before the changes in you personally may have been very subtle and may (note MAY) always remain subtle. Assuming a tree is self-aware, that tree will not grow any faster by worrying and taking constant measurements and comparing itself with other species that grow extremely fast.
With the spiritual truths side I think you may have already got them but because you haven't felt them or experienced as others describe you assume that you haven't understood them.

If the Holy Spirit is making changes in me, then the rate of change must be very slow indeed, because it is now over 37 years since I began as a believer. I have seen nothing, and nor has anyone else. I think it is much more likely that there have been no changes. Of course, the Holy Spirit would not need to make any changes in a person who was already perfect, but I definitely do not fit into that category.

No, unfortunately there are many spiritual truths that I do not understand. To the extent that I am not really sure what a spiritual truth is. I do know that very often when Christians try to explain to me something that they say is a spiritual truth, I do not understand what they are trying to tell me.

I think you would be far closer to God than many people ever would be if you stopped looking for spiritual experiences to prove your faith and merely believed in Jesus and what He did for you by dying for you on the cross for your sins.

Correction. I believed in Jesus as you suggested for two years, the time when I was a believer. During much of that time I certainly thought that I was close to God but I gradually came to realise that this was an illusion, and that in reality I was no closer to God than I had been before I became a believer. It would be out of the question for me to return to that state of being a believer but not getting any response from God, because for me I do not see it as a state of being saved. As I said above, a person is only saved when God answers their prayer for salvation with a yes.

"But I will never experience feelings of peace with God so I cannot know I am a christian" I can imagine you saying. Think of what Jesus said about those who do not believe in God. Matthew 12:30 People who are not friends with God are enemies of God. Through faith in God we are no longer at war with Him, we are at peace with Him.

The only answer I can give to this is that God is spirit, and so far in my life I appear to have had no interactions with the spiritual realm. In this situation it would be impossible for me to be against God.

Besides, I do not adhere to that type of black and white thinking. In Matthew 12:30, Jesus is using over the top language to make a point, but I would not expect it to be taken literally.

Do you believe in the Gospel? Do you understand it intellectually and accept it as true?

Do I understand the gospel intellectually? Yes, recognising that different types of Christians sometimes interpret the gospel in different ways. And recognising that because of my experience I might describe the gospel differently from others – insisting that the prayer of salvation has to be answered before a person is saved, for example. Do I accept the gospel as true? Not sure. But during my time as a believer I definitely accepted it as true.

What parts of your daily life do you think need to change that would prove to yourself that you are a christian?

I do not think that changes in my daily life would prove to me that I was a Christian. I would need some kind of “feedback” from God to prove it to me. It would be up to God to choose how to respond, and it might or might not involve God somehow making a change in my daily life.

Any change would have to come from God. It would not matter what changes I personally made in my daily life. I could spend 24 hours of every day in prayer and reading the Bible, but that would not make me a Christian.

You have listened way too much to other christians who have a strong feeling component to their faith.
To use a personal example: I have two sons that are totally opposite in personality. Same way with you - you are a completely objective, rational, thinking, non-feeling, logical individual. Why do you think God would approach you in ways He does with people who are very feeling and not capable of thinking deeply about things? You need to stop being jealous of christians who are feeling brothers and sisters in Christ. I bet you understand very difficult topics easily and don't realise that you understand it so easily through God giving you that unique ability.

In the same way I have two sisters who have very different personalities, and I do not treat them in the same way.

I agree that I have listened a lot to Christians who have a strong feeling component to their faith – even though many of them would deny that feelings are an important part of their faith. It is hardly surprising that I have learned about being a Christian from Christians with feelings, because in comparison with me, just about everyone is a more feeling person than I am.

I suspect that some spiritual experiences are only available to “feeling” people with emotions. But there are other spiritual experiences in which emotions and feelings are not relevant. Having a prayer answered, for example. Getting divine guidance. Having the Holy Spirit change a person from the inside.

As for understanding difficult topics, it depends what they are. Some things I do understand easily. Others, such as spiritual truths, I struggle with. If God gave me an ability to understand difficult things, then first he gave me that ability long before I became a believer, and second there are some rather large holes in my ability.

Do you really believe that because you haven't ever felt the enthusiasm and intimacy that some christians describe that you therefore mustn't be saved or ever had a real faith to begin with? Boy do I feel like I am typing to myself 5 years ago now.

Not having enthusiasm and intimacy is only part of the picture. I doubt my salvation because I never had any type of response from God. There are lots of ways in which God responds to people, and I appear to have missed out on all of them. For any individual type of response, you could give reasons why I did not receive that type of response from God. But when I consider that I never had any type of response, that is a different situation. Even if every single example could be explained away somehow, there would still remain the basic problem, that God did not respond in any way that I was aware of, which means that as far as I am aware there was no change in me when I became a believer. I did not become a new creation.

However I refuse to give you false hope of one day feeling like you have a relationship with God because you say you have never experienced feelings at all. Would knowing that you have a relationship with God be a comfort to you? If you believe in Him you are a child of God. Romans 8:12-17 So don't you ever forget that. You have to trust Jesus and rest in Him.

I agree that knowing I have a relationship with God would be much better than simply feeling that I had a relationship with God. However ...

Sorry but I do not know that I have a relationship with God. As I have already said, I have no evidence of my prayers for salvation being answered with a yes. I am aware that evangelists and others (including the “Be a Christian” section in Christian Forums) imply that as soon as a person sincerely says a salvation prayer, repenting and asking for forgiveness and giving their life to God, they are saved, have eternal life and have a relationship with God. The evangelists have missed out an important factor. Those blessings come from the grace of God, and unless God says yes they do not happen.

The passage in Romans 8 speaks of being led by the Spirit. I have no awareness of being led by the Spirit. The Spirit does not bear witness with my spirit (because I have no awareness of having a spirit).

Read this woman's story. Out of touch: A rare disorder affects woman's sense of touch, pain - The York Daily Record She has no sense of pain but is she alive - yes or no? Compare your spiritual life - you have no sense of feeling God, but are you alive - yes or no? If you have faith in God yes you are. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I can empathise with the woman recognising that she is missing something that most people have. But I am sorry I cannot understand what point you are trying to make here.

If I met a christian like yourself who still believed in God and lived to please God despite never having any spiritual experience or obvious prayer answered in their life I would actually take their faith far more seriously than many shallow christians whose faith falters as soon as feelings fade away and things start to go wrong.

I would not describe myself at the moment as being a Christian as you said it. However, there was a time when I was like that, for probably the second year when I was a believer. I did have faith, but in my own strength (and no strength from God was available to me) I was unable to sustain that faith indefinitely.

Sorry about the length of this posting.

 

[saralynn]

Lost Hope: You suggest that I could decide to believe, or decide not to believe, or waver indefinitely.

Well, if a photon can be both a wave and a particle, maybe you can be a theist and an atheist. I think I may have accomplished this, although I can't tell you how.

 

[razeontherock]

"Where [is] the way [where] light dwelleth?" (Job 38:19)

Light is both travelling and a place; crude terminology for a wave and a particle, given to inspire our curiosity and intellect.

(2 Cr 1:20) "For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

You said you are waiting for Him to say yes to your prayer for Salvation:

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

This is the stuff Faith is made of!

 

[joey_downunder]

What you describe is a person who appears to be a Christian, who appears to be saved, and who may believe themselves that they are saved. However, what you have missed out in your description is the grace of God.

You're right! I left out a very important thing - God's grace. I was only looking at from our point of view. John 6:37 God calls people and they come to Him. Have you come to Him? Don't worry about lack of feelings or apparent lack of answers to prayer - have you come to Him?

My understanding of the Christian message is that it is not enough for a person to believe in God, to repent and to be living to please God. It is virtuous, but it is not necessarily salvation. A person is not saved when they say a prayer for salvation, no matter how sincere they are. A person is only saved when God answers their prayer for salvation.

I think I said before - meaing from our perspective - a person believing in Christ and repenting (i.e.changing from pleasing self to pleasing God) was merely the first step of a relationship.

Do you really think that God wouldn't answer a person's prayer to be saved immediately? e.g. Acts 16:25-34 My understanding of that passage is that jailer believed and knew he was saved at the same time and as a result he was rejoicing.

My understanding is that there are four answers that God can give to requests. The fourth is to give something that is much better than what the person asks for – Ephesians 3:20.

Great point! Again you're pointing out things from God's perspective - do you think a person without a genuine christian faith is likely to do that?!!!

If the Holy Spirit is making changes in me, then the rate of change must be very slow indeed, because it is now over 37 years since I began as a believer. I have seen nothing, and nor has anyone else. I think it is much more likely that there have been no changes. Of course, the Holy Spirit would not need to make any changes in a person who was already perfect, but I definitely do not fit into that category.

Now looking from God's pespective - God knows your heart. God knows if you have a genuine faith. God's view of you is all that matters. God would have mercy on a child of His that is not able to change for whatever reason. You have a very unusual situation and God knows that.

I do know that very often when Christians try to explain to me something that they say is a spiritual truth, I do not understand what they are trying to tell me.

OK let's say you are genuinely unable to understand a spiritual truth.
1. Why do you assume that an inability to understand a certain truth automatically means you mustn't be a real believer?
2. What kind of spiritual truths do you mean? A doctrinal truth or an experiential truth?

During much of that time I certainly thought that I was close to God but I gradually came to realise that this was an illusion, and that in reality I was no closer to God than I had been before I became a believer.

A-ha - where did that thought *correction* ACCUSATION come that your faith was a mere illusion? 1 peter 5:8 I had that exact same problem - that any faith of mine was a mere illusion, wishful thinking, that I would never really know if my faith was genuine. The Devil's Armor

All these things you are being told - analyse them using the Bible.
1. Does lack of experience = not christian
2. Does lack of feelings = not christian
3. Does lack of answered prayer = not christian
4. Does lack of guidance = not christian

No - lack of faith in Jesus = not christian. Stop listening to Satan. Satan is a liar determined to wreck your faith using the lowest means possible.

 

[joey_downunder]

The only answer I can give to this is that God is spirit, and so far in my life I appear to have had no interactions with the spiritual realm. In this situation it would be impossible for me to be against God.

APPEAR to have no interactions. APPEAR.

Besides, I do not adhere to that type of black and white thinking. In Matthew 12:30, Jesus is using over the top language to make a point, but I would not expect it to be taken literally.

I don't think exaggeration is being used here matthew 12:30. I have never heard or read one single atheist or non-christian defending the christian faith or Jesus from the christian perspective.

Do I accept the gospel as true? Not sure. But during my time as a believer I definitely accepted it as true.

I am not surprised that you are unsure. You have had your faith attacked so badly by your spiritual Enemy and you weren't aware of it at the time.

I would need some kind of “feedback” from God to prove it to me. It would be up to God to choose how to respond, and it might or might not involve God somehow making a change in my daily life.

Do you realise you are being like the Jews demanding a sign from Jesus? Matthew 12:38 God may have chosen not to give you a sign because you genuinely do not need it.
On the doctrinal side: if you are a christian you have all the promises that He gives to His children in the Bible. Salvation, grace, sanctification, redemption.
In your personal life (from what you have typed): you have been kept safe, you have been successful, you have been loved by other people, you have been supported by other people... Reading what you have gone through and how much you must have been looked after by God is vey touching.

I agree that I have listened a lot to Christians who have a strong feeling component to their faith – even though many of them would deny that feelings are an important part of their faith.

Yes people are very feeling creatures generally. I would never have known how much feelings had been part of my faith if I hadn't had the surgery that removed all religious experiences.

But there are other spiritual experiences in which emotions and feelings are not relevant. Having a prayer answered, for example. Getting divine guidance. Having the Holy Spirit change a person from the inside.

Whether God gives divine guidance in addition to what is revealed in the Bible is an area that charismatics and non-charismatics especially disagree over. Since you are not a feeling person you shouldn't be concerned about lack of invisible spiritual guidance at all. In the "new christians" and "christian advice" section there are a lot of people agonising about lack of that as well. I have come to the conclusion that modern Christianity has swung so far away from (excessive) head knowledge focus in the past to (emotional/supernatural experience) heart knowledge in focus that many people like yourself now doubt their salvation.

Have you changed in your personality, your inner person at all over your life? I am not talking mental, emotional or intellectual maturity here.

Others, such as spiritual truths, I struggle with. If God gave me an ability to understand difficult things, then first he gave me that ability long before I became a believer, and second there are some rather large holes in my ability.

There are big spiritual truth "holes" in all of us. We are all imperfect human beings.

 

[joey_downunder]

Not having enthusiasm and intimacy is only part of the picture....... there would still remain the basic problem, that God did not respond in any way that I was aware of, which means that as far as I am aware there was no change in me when I became a believer. I did not become a new creation.

Perhaps yours is a unique situation that truly only God would understand? If you have believed in Jesus you are a child of God. Don't worry about other christians appearing to grow so much in Christ and comparing you to themselves in the process. Perhaps they should stop thinking like the apostle Peter. John 21:20-23

You are a parent. You would have an understanding of how parents make allowances for their disabled children. When I was a nurse in a nursing home there was a very middle-aged Downs' Syndrome woman whose elderly parents would come to visit nearly every day. They knew from the beginning she was never going to improve past a certain point of maturity. They still loved her and cared about her even if she didn't realise how much they did for her.

Sorry but I do not know that I have a relationship with God..... The evangelists have missed out an important factor. Those blessings come from the grace of God, and unless God says yes they do not happen.

I am troubled that you think God may have put you on a rejection list despite you sincerely seeking Him with all your ability. Matthew 7:3-11 God is a God of love and mercy. 1 John 4:16 Substitute word "love" for God in this passage.
1 corinthians 13:4-7

The passage in Romans 8 speaks of being led by the Spirit. I have no awareness of being led by the Spirit. The Spirit does not bear witness with my spirit (because I have no awareness of having a spirit).

Could the Spirit have led you to this forum to type to someone who has lost nearly all spiritual experiences but still has faith in God?

I can empathise with the woman recognising that she is missing something that most people have. But I am sorry I cannot understand what point you are trying to make here.

The woman does not have any feelings but she is alive. You do not have any spiritual feelings but you could be - may be - spiritually alive through faith in God.

However, there was a time when I was like that, for probably the second year when I was a believer. I did have faith, but in my own strength (and no strength from God was available to me) I was unable to sustain that faith indefinitely.

You do not have to sustain your faith. God will. It is a real shame that you believed you needed to feel God's strength when you actually may have had it but didn't realise.

Sorry about the length of this posting.

Don't worry about that. I just had to separate my entry into 3 parts! The coffee must have finally hit! I don't understand how morning larks do it....

 

[losthope]

Lost Hope: You suggest that I could decide to believe, or decide not to believe, or waver indefinitely.

saralynn: Well, if a photon can be both a wave and a particle, maybe you can be a theist and an atheist. I think I may have accomplished this, although I can't tell you how.

Both a theist and an atheist? It would be hard enough for me to be either of those. But both at the same time? If you have accomplished that, you must be very special.

When scientists do experiments involving photons, sometimes the photon appears to act like a wave and sometimes it appears to act like a particle. In reality, a photon is probably neither a particle nor a wave, but something else that has some of the properties of both. It is just that the scientists do not fully understand it yet. When they do understand what a photon is, they may have to think up a few more technical terms to describe it.

You cannot see a single photon. All that you can do is to observe its effects, and draw conclusions from that. A bit like God really; you cannot see God but believers say that they can observe and experience the effects of God and draw conclusions about what God is like. However, any description of God is likely to be inaccurate, because they are only drawing conclusions, not seeing the real thing.

 

[losthope]

"Where [is] the way [where] light dwelleth?" (Job 38:19)

Light is both travelling and a place; crude terminology for a wave and a particle, given to inspire our curiosity and intellect.

(2 Cr 1:20) "For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

You said you are waiting for Him to say yes to your prayer for Salvation:

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

This is the stuff Faith is made of!

I understand why you quoted John 6:37, but what about the ones that the father does not give to Jesus? There is nothing in the verse that prevents them trying to come to Jesus also, but there is no promise that they will not be cast out.

There are plenty of examples in the parables and in the gospels generally where a person thinks that they are saved, but in reality they are not. For example, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:41-46.

Faith needs to be backed up by grace, and only God can supply that. That is why I say that a person is not saved until God answers their prayer for salvation.

Whenever there is a disagreement between Christians, both sides quote the Bible to back up their opposing views. When I am speaking with Christians, I sometimes quote from the Bible as well; they may appreciate it even though they may be surprised that I do it. It probably means that I am not going to be convinced by a verse from the Bible, because I know that somewhere in the Bible there is likely to be a verse that implies something quite different.

 

[losthope]

To joey down under,

You wrote this:
You're right! I left out a very important thing - God's grace. I was only looking at from our point of view. John 6:37 God calls people and they come to Him. Have you come to Him? Don't worry about lack of feelings or apparent lack of answers to prayer - have you come to Him?

Yes I did come to God. Or at least, I tried to. But John 6:37 does not say anything about a person who tries to come to God if the father has not given the person to Jesus. See my comments above to razeontherock regarding this verse.

I think I said before - meaing from our perspective - a person believing in Christ and repenting (i.e.changing from pleasing self to pleasing God) was merely the first step of a relationship.

Do you really think that God wouldn't answer a person's prayer to be saved immediately? e.g. Acts 16:25-34 My understanding of that passage is that jailer believed and knew he was saved at the same time and as a result he was rejoicing.

I agree that a person believing in Christ and repenting is merely the first part of a relationship – but only if God allows the relationship to develop. It takes two to make a relationship; if one of the two decides that they do not want a relationship, it is over, regardless of what the other person thinks.

I understand why Christians like to believe that a person’s prayer to be saved would be answered immediately. I do not believe that it is always answered immediately, and certainly not immediately with a yes. The jailer’s prayer may have been answered immediately, but that is no guarantee that it will be the same for everyone.

Great point! Again you're pointing out things from God's perspective - do you think a person without a genuine christian faith is likely to do that?!!!

Why not? If a person has some knowledge of Christianity and of the Bible, they can use that knowledge. It does not make them a believer. Remember that even Satan more or less quoted from the Bible when tempting Jesus.

Now looking from God's pespective - God knows your heart. God knows if you have a genuine faith. God's view of you is all that matters. God would have mercy on a child of His that is not able to change for whatever reason. You have a very unusual situation and God knows that.

I used to have genuine faith, or at least I thought that I had genuine faith and so did everyone else. Not now, though.

I really cannot believe that I could be unable to change. I agree that I have an unusual condition, but I do not think that being unable to change is one of the symptoms. Surely God could change me, if God wanted to change me.

OK let's say you are genuinely unable to understand a spiritual truth.
1. Why do you assume that an inability to understand a certain truth automatically means you mustn't be a real believer?
2. What kind of spiritual truths do you mean? A doctrinal truth or an experiential truth?

Not being able to understand a certain truth would not mean that I was not a true believer. (There are a lot of negatives in that last sentence, but I hope it is still understandable.) I suspect that I am not saved because of the sum total of all of the ways that I have seen no change since I first came to God.

What kind of spiritual truth, you ask. I did not know that there were different kinds of spiritual truth. I guess I am probably thinking about doctrinal truth.

A-ha - where did that thought *correction* ACCUSATION come that your faith was a mere illusion? 1 peter 5:8 I had that exact same problem - that any faith of mine was a mere illusion, wishful thinking, that I would never really know if my faith was genuine.

That thought – I do not call it an accusation – that my faith was a mere illusion did not come to me until 24 years after I had given up calling myself a Christian. I apologise for previously saying that it happened during the time that I was a believer. Thinking about it again now, I did not think in terms of faith being an illusion during my time as a believer.

All these things you are being told - analyse them using the Bible.
1. Does lack of experience = not christian
2. Does lack of feelings = not christian
3. Does lack of answered prayer = not christian
4. Does lack of guidance = not christian

No one of these things says that I am not a Christian. But taken together they add up to something, they portray a situation that is completely different from the Bible promises to the believer.

No - lack of faith in Jesus = not christian. Stop listening to Satan. Satan is a liar determined to wreck your faith using the lowest means possible.

I agree that lack of faith in Jesus probably means that a person is not a Christian. (I say “probably” because I do not know what other conditions there are that might prevent a person being able to partake in God’s love.)

I do not listen to Satan. Satan is a spirit, and I have no spiritual awareness. If at some time in the future I do gain spiritual awareness and can be influenced by the Holy Spirit, then that will be the time when I would be vulnerable to listening to Satan.

I don't think exaggeration is being used here matthew 12:30. I have never heard or read one single atheist or non-christian defending the christian faith or Jesus from the christian perspective.

That does not necessarily mean that people have to be either for or against.

Do you realise you are being like the Jews demanding a sign from Jesus? Matthew 12:38 God may have chosen not to give you a sign because you genuinely do not need it.
On the doctrinal side: if you are a christian you have all the promises that He gives to His children in the Bible. Salvation, grace, sanctification, redemption.
In your personal life (from what you have typed): you have been kept safe, you have been successful, you have been loved by other people, you have been supported by other people... Reading what you have gone through and how much you must have been looked after by God is vey touching.

It is because of my history of never having any response from God that I am aware of, that I would need a response from God to confirm that my prayer has been answered. I know that this is asking for more than most Christians ask for, but I am not most Christians, I have a disastrous experience of Christianity with no response from God. I could not go through that again. I certainly think that I need some kind of response – not necessarily a sign, as such, but some kind of response.

On the doctrinal side: if you are a christian you have all the promises that He gives to His children in the Bible. Salvation, grace, sanctification, redemption.

That is a big “if”.

In your personal life (from what you have typed): you have been kept safe, you have been successful, you have been loved by other people, you have been supported by other people... Reading what you have gone through and how much you must have been looked after by God is vey touching.

That is not the way it seems to me. I have not been successful, possibly because of the effects of my condition. For the same reason many people did not support me. As for being looked after by God, I have no evidence of that. My condition was never potentially fatal.

Perhaps it is just as well that my brain tumour was not potentially fatal, because otherwise people might have thought of likening me to one of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13.

Yes people are very feeling creatures generally. I would never have known how much feelings had been part of my faith if I hadn't had the surgery that removed all religious experiences.

It has given you a special insight into faith and spiritual experience.

Whether God gives divine guidance in addition to what is revealed in the Bible is an area that charismatics and non-charismatics especially disagree over. Since you are not a feeling person you shouldn't be concerned about lack of invisible spiritual guidance at all. In the "new christians" and "christian advice" section there are a lot of people agonising about lack of that as well. I have come to the conclusion that modern Christianity has swung so far away from (excessive) head knowledge focus in the past to (emotional/supernatural experience) heart knowledge in focus that many people like yourself now doubt their salvation.

If I did still think of myself as a Christian, then I would probably be charismatic rather than non-charismatic – though I would not say that there is a sharp dividing line between the two. More of a continuum with people at some point on the continuum.

You may be right when you imply that part of my problem is that my needs do not gel with the current prevailing attitudes among Christians. Perhaps back in the days when it was head knowledge that mattered, I would have been more comfortable as a believer. Because heart knowledge is something that I can only observe second hand in other people. I do not really understand what heart knowledge is.

Have you changed in your personality, your inner person at all over your life? I am not talking mental, emotional or intellectual maturity here.

I have definitely changed in my personality and in my inner person in some ways, yes. Partly driven by my hormones, I suspect. Of course there are other aspects that have not changed. Although it is difficult to be certain what is real change and what is due to maturing and ageing.

Perhaps yours is a unique situation that truly only God would understand? If you have believed in Jesus you are a child of God. Don't worry about other christians appearing to grow so much in Christ and comparing you to themselves in the process. Perhaps they should stop thinking like the apostle Peter. John 21:20-23

I suspect that my situation is unusual, and maybe only something that God would understand, simply because most people, Christian or otherwise, have difficulty understanding my situation. But I am not unique; there are other people who lack emotions and who have also failed to experience God during their time as believers.

Inevitably I am going to compare myself with other Christians. Not that I would expect to be the same as they are, because God would have a different plan for each of us. But I saw Christians moving forward in their faith and in their intimacy with God, and my situation was so very different.

You are a parent. You would have an understanding of how parents make allowances for their disabled children. When I was a nurse in a nursing home there was a very middle-aged Downs' Syndrome woman whose elderly parents would come to visit nearly every day. They knew from the beginning she was never going to improve past a certain point of maturity. They still loved her and cared about her even if she didn't realise how much they did for her.

There is a disabled child in my family. I personally find it difficult to make too many allowances for his condition, perhaps because nobody in the family ever made many allowances for me. Sorry if that offends you.

I am troubled that you think God may have put you on a rejection list despite you sincerely seeking Him with all your ability.

There are passages in the Bible that imply that some people are chosen to be saved and some who are not in the book of life. Some Christians believe in this aspect of predestination; other Christians say that potentially everyone can be saved. I have to accept the possibility that my name is not in the book of life; that is one of the five possible reasons that I have to explain why God apparently never responded to me. If you want a better description of this than I can give, read the poem “Johannes Agricola in meditation” by Robert Browning.

Could the Spirit have led you to this forum to type to someone who has lost nearly all spiritual experiences but still has faith in God?

It is quite possible. I have said in the past that in my search for God, the next move is up to God, not me – but that God’s move might be to give me an imperceptible nudge in a particular direction.

You do not have to sustain your faith. God will. It is a real shame that you believed you needed to feel God's strength when you actually may have had it but didn't realise.

But the problem was, that God did not sustain my faith. Even though I prayed enough for that to happen. I realise that it would be theoretically possible for me to have God’s strength but not realise it. But that still would have left me unable to draw on God’s strength, so it would not have been much use to me.

If Christians were never aware of what God had done, how long do you think the faith would have lasted? Certainly not 2000 years.

The coffee must have finally hit! I don't understand how morning larks do it....

My wife asks the same question. It just comes naturally to me; it did even when I was a teenager. It does have its advantages, such as two or three hours in the morning to myself before she wakes up.