No Compusion?

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

The nun he refers to I do accept as well as other sources. That's enough for me. I only picked Ibrahim's article because it was the one I found that didn't have graphic images.

It's not enough for Syrian Christians for Peace.

1.) According to various articles, Sister Raghad, if she really exists, is in France. When did she personally witness this event? The link you posted says she said something about how the Muslims asked the Christians if they want to die like their teacher (Jesus peace be upon him). Which Muslim would say that Jesus (peace be upon him) was crucified? Muslims specifically believe that he has not died, been crucified, or died by crucifixion. So that's one thing that makes this story suspicious.

2.) Syrian Christians for Peace have said (to the same website that Raymond Ibrahim linked to) that this news seems like a fabrication by the Syrian regime/its supporters and they criticized those spreading (likely false) information for not verifying it before propagating it. Who is this Sister Raghad, is she really a nun, what's her real & full name, what monastery is she associated with, does the school they mentioned she is a part of really exist, what year did she join it, etc.

They also say that the Syrian regime has invented/introduced a new nun to support their image after the previous nun (Mother Agnes) who was allied with them was pretty much exposed. If this one is also exposed, the regime will put another one in her place.

3.) Even if Raghad is real and she's telling the truth, where does it say that the fighters were from Jabhat an-Nusrah?

I can only go on what you write. To this reader, your world view is almost entirely politicized and fundamentalist. If I'm wrong, then you are not getting through and you can't just blame the reader.

I'm all for judging by the apparent but how does that translate to saying I don't believe Muslims harm anyone? I would hope that people would believe that I only try to look at everything through Islaamic lenses. This is why I will condemn those who torch churches specifically, regardless of who does it. This is why I will condemn those who force non-Muslims to convert to Islaam since it goes directly against a verse of the Qur'aan.

 

[smaneck]

Outta control in Syria.

Contra,

Look at that picture carefully. No way would someone die crucified in that manner (except maybe of heat exhaustion.) His legs and arms are tied to the cross, not nailed. And the legs are tied in such a way that that it helps bear his weight, if that were needed. And I doubt if it would be because the cross in question is leaning against something. meaning this guy is really in a reclining position. Not exactly comfortable but it doesn't look all that tortuous, let alone deadly.

I don't know exactly what is going on here, but this is not the sort of 'crucifixion' that could kill someone or even injure them badly.

 

[smaneck]

Than we have the horrors of Boko Harm in Nigeria which is now in the news as are other area's of Africa. Syria has become all about Muslim against Muslim and threatens to grow to surrounding countries. Iraq, the same. And Afghanistan as well. Egypt has major issues and Libya is still pretty unstable with it's militias.

I now wonder if a large part of Islam is broken beyond repair. But if not, what will it take to bring it back into balance?

.

Do we say that Christianity is broken beyond repair because of Rwanda?

 

[smaneck]

No compulsion in religion has been abrogated

Funny the number of Christians who insist this is true but I have never heard a Muslim no matter how radical, argue this.

 

[smaneck]

I don't care about Ibrahim or your gripes with him. The nun he refers to I do accept as well as other sources.

Do you actually have what this nun says or only what Ibrahim says she said?

I'd like to see the evidence from the nun herself because the blood libel of the other nun was so obviously bogus.

 

[dlamberth]

Do we say that Christianity is broken beyond repair because of Rwanda?

I did not ask if the religion of Islam is broken beyond repair. I asked of a portion of it is. It sure seems that way to me and I wanted to see what others thought. And yes, not only in Rwanda, but elsewhere I feel Christianity is broken as well. That's a whole different thread. The OP of this thread was directed towards Islam, and so it is towards Islam which I ask my question.


.

 

[Supreme]

With acts like this being propagated by Islamist factions in Syria, it's not really surprising that Syrian Christians overwhelmingly support Assad. Assad is a butcherer, sure, but you'd be out of your mind to support the other side when they're like to crucify you and stop you pracitising your religion.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Outta control in Syria.

As usual.

Typically.

...umm...who's in charge of Muslims? Who keeps them in line according to their religion? Who rules on who gets executed and how?

With acts like this being propagated by Islamist factions in Syria, it's not really surprising that Syrian Christians overwhelmingly support Assad. Assad is a butcherer, sure, but you'd be out of your mind to support the other side when they're like to crucify you and stop you pracitising your religion.

Have to read the story carefully.

The 2 men crucified were Muslim rebels. This was done as a non-life threatening warning to other Muslim rebels.

The story about crucified Christians are from a Nun that seems to have lost credibility regarding her accusations.

 

[Supreme]

Have to read the story carefully.

The 2 men crucified were Muslim rebels. This was done as a non-life threatening warning to other Muslim rebels.

The story about crucified Christians are from a Nun that seems to have lost credibility regarding her accusations.

Nonetheless, you only need to look at when the extremists took of Maloula to see why Christians prefer Assad. Their actions in Maloula were utterly disgraceful, and if Christians and other minorities were unsure before who to get behind, they were definite after hearing about what happened there.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Nonetheless, you only need to look at when the extremists took of Maloula to see why Christians prefer Assad. Their actions in Maloula were utterly disgraceful, and if Christians and other minorities were unsure before who to get behind, they were definite after hearing about what happened there.

I have to agree the happenings at Maloula would encourage Christians to support Assa

 

[Zoness]

When you're on the ground in Syria, the "can't we all get along" ideas that we can comfortably discuss here in the West simply don't fly when survival is at risk. I think Christians would be remiss to support the rebels as it currently stands but Assad is at least as awful as the rebels.

And here we all thought this was going to be a quick revolution. I guess that's what happens when you take the hands off approach but hey...America would be blamed for more Imperialism if they had entered the Middle East again.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Nonetheless, you only need to look at when the extremists took of Maloula to see why Christians prefer Assad. Their actions in Maloula were utterly disgraceful, and if Christians and other minorities were unsure before who to get behind, they were definite after hearing about what happened there.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7820796/#post65554698

After they were swapped for some Sunni women prisoners held by Bashar, the nuns appeared on television and said they were treated very well by Jabhah an-Nusrah.

There is also this video of the swap of the prisoners and the trip to that meeting place (you can see the ease with which the rebels and the nuns talk and the nuns are thanking them for their good treatment of them):

[youtube]L3ZZyRv3kSo[/youtube]

These nuns were called traitors by Syrian regime supporters because the nuns' version of events does not sit very well with pro-Bashar rhetoric.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

A number of armed men then entered the St Takla monastery in the north of the village and asked the nuns there whether there were any government soldiers hiding there.

"There were around 20 of them. They looked like Islamists, but they did us no harm," one of the nuns told the BBC a few days after the incident.

"They told us they were after Bashar al-Assad and his army, not Christians," the nun explained.

On their second visit, the nun explains, the men asked the nuns to make a video statement to the effect that they hadn't been harmed or attacked by the rebels, which was then posted on YouTube.

The rebels then left their arms outside the monastery and climbed up to film the village from above in an attempt to prove that they left without causing damage or attacking the churches, according to the nun the BBC spoke to.

BBC News - Christian villagers cast doubt on Syria jihadist threat

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

And this will be my last one for now. Very relevant to this thread:

Abdulnour founded Syrian Christians for Peace, a pro-opposition humanitarian organization that distributes aid inside Syria. The group’s work also counters the regime-led narrative that Christians support the regime. He denounces the regime’s manipulation of Syrian Christians’ fears of strict Muslim rule in Syria, and in this interview, candidly answers Abdulrahman al-Masri’s questions about whether Syrian Christians really support the regime

Q: Why is the Christian Syrian community seemingly distant from the revolution? Is the regime giving them a lot?

A: The regime played the sectarian card from the first day [of the revolution]. Even before there were Islamic movements or Islamic slogans, Bashar al-Assad and Buthaina Shabaan toyed with Syrians’ emotions on Syrian television. That succeeded in scaring Christians inside and outside Syria through their relatives.

Other regime methods include attacks against them by the shabiha [pro-government militias], which are takfiri Islamist groups without a future if Bashar’s regime fails. Yet these attacks and propaganda succeeded in scaring a large number of people.

--
"...a number of priests are connected and have interests with the regime. We are asking the Christian community still in Syria to withstand this..."

Christians are active participants in the Syrian revolution Ayman Abdulnour - Syria Direct

This is similar to Egypt. The shabiha (government thugs) commit atrocities and then say it was the rebels/opposition that did those acts in order to scare people nationally & internationally about what will happen if the opposition comes into power.

 

[Zoness]

A number of armed men then entered the St Takla monastery in the north of the village and asked the nuns there whether there were any government soldiers hiding there.

"There were around 20 of them. They looked like Islamists, but they did us no harm," one of the nuns told the BBC a few days after the incident.

"They told us they were after Bashar al-Assad and his army, not Christians," the nun explained.

On their second visit, the nun explains, the men asked the nuns to make a video statement to the effect that they hadn't been harmed or attacked by the rebels, which was then posted on YouTube.

The rebels then left their arms outside the monastery and climbed up to film the village from above in an attempt to prove that they left without causing damage or attacking the churches, according to the nun the BBC spoke to.

BBC News - Christian villagers cast doubt on Syria jihadist threat

The problem with any of this is that one story is not always indicative of any case. Islamists didn't cause Christians trouble now? Great but what about the occasions when they did? That same question applies in any number of combinations with other religions and ethnicities.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be anywhere any villages where the Al-Nusra Front or ISIS was in control. Same would apply with the army. Luckily these armed insurgents don't seem to be either of those groups. Of course if the government came I'd be out of there in a hurry too. They're just as bad.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

The problem with any of this is that one story is not always indicative of any case. Islamists didn't cause Christians trouble now? Great but what about the occasions when they did? That same question applies in any number of combinations with other religions and ethnicities.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be anywhere any villages where the Al-Nusra Front or ISIS was in control. Same would apply with the army. Luckily these armed insurgents don't seem to be either of those groups. Of course if the government came I'd be out of there in a hurry too. They're just as bad.

Actually, Jabhat an-Nusrah was there and they were among the armed insurgents (often different factions fight together) from what I gathered. It seems that none of the rebels harmed the non-combatant villagers.

And did you watch the video of the 16 (?) nuns? They appeared in front of reporters later and said that they were treated very well by Jabhat an-Nusrah. Keep in mind that they were kept under JN's care for 4 months and they said that all of their needs were seen to. Bashar loyalists didn't like that and proceeded to call these nuns traitors.

Can you give me specific examples of JN mistreating non-combatant Christians? I gave a specific example, the words of a Syrian Christian organization, and the version of events some Christian villagers gave.

 

[Zoness]

Actually, Jabhat an-Nusrah was there and they were among the armed insurgents (often different factions fight together) from what I gathered. It seems that none of the rebels harmed the non-combatant villagers.

And did you watch the video of the 16 (?) nuns? They appeared in front of reporters later and said that they were treated very well by Jabhat an-Nusrah. Keep in mind that they were kept under JN's care for 4 months and they said that all of their needs were seen to. Bashar loyalists didn't like that and proceeded to call these nuns traitors.

Can you give me specific examples of JN mistreating non-combatant Christians? I gave a specific example, the words of a Syrian Christian organization, and the version of events some Christian villagers gave.

I'm pleased to say that a cursory search does not indicate to me that Jabhat an-Nusrah has harmed non-combatant Christians intentionally. I found some interesting attacks of Christians but none of them seemed to be linked directly to Jabhat an-Nusrah.*

That said I think my primary point stands: this is a group that is allied with al-Qaeda, its convenient enough now to be nice to non-combatants because frankly the rebels need all of the PR they can get. Though if we talk about the possibility of an ISIS or Jabhat an-Nusrah ran Syria, I doubt that hospitality towards Christians will last if they want to install Sharia law and a Caliphate as they claim. (Source)

Even given their slightly less oppressive brand of leadership I do not support them on the principle of supporting al-Qaeda. I am absolutely ideologically opposed to anything they represent and the same thing applies to groups affiliated with them. A government ran by such groups has no chance of being open and free as they claim.

So when it comes to Jabhat an-Nusrah, maybe they aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be; I'd have to do a lot more research before I committed to believing that. However its open season anarchy in Syria with many competing, cannibalizing factions that hate each other and those who don't share their religion so I won't hold my breath that moderate groups will hold up against extremist groups.

*I don't have all night to scour the internet but if I can't find something reliable on a reputable news source then that's good enough for now.

 

[wn123455]

I'm pleased to say that a cursory search does not indicate to me that Jabhat an-Nusrah has harmed non-combatant Christians intentionally. I found some interesting attacks of Christians but none of them seemed to be linked directly to Jabhat an-Nusrah.*

That said I think my primary point stands: this is a group that is allied with al-Qaeda, its convenient enough now to be nice to non-combatants because frankly the rebels need all of the PR they can get. Though if we talk about the possibility of an ISIS or Jabhat an-Nusrah ran Syria, I doubt that hospitality towards Christians will last if they want to install Sharia law and a Caliphate as they claim. (Source)

Even given their slightly less oppressive brand of leadership I do not support them on the principle of supporting al-Qaeda. I am absolutely ideologically opposed to anything they represent and the same thing applies to groups affiliated with them. A government ran by such groups has no chance of being open and free as they claim.

So when it comes to Jabhat an-Nusrah, maybe they aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be; I'd have to do a lot more research before I committed to believing that. However its open season anarchy in Syria with many competing, cannibalizing factions that hate each other and those who don't share their religion so I won't hold my breath that moderate groups will hold up against extremist groups.

*I don't have all night to scour the internet but if I can't find something reliable on a reputable news source then that's good enough for now.

Jabhat al-Nusra's Damascus Suicide Bombings Kill 50+ Civilians & Injure 230+ Others (18+) - YouTube

 

[ContraMundum]

It's not enough for Syrian Christians for Peace.

1.) According to various articles, Sister Raghad, if she really exists, is in France. When did she personally witness this event? The link you posted says she said something about how the Muslims asked the Christians if they want to die like their teacher (Jesus peace be upon him). Which Muslim would say that Jesus (peace be upon him) was crucified? Muslims specifically believe that he has not died, been crucified, or died by crucifixion. So that's one thing that makes this story suspicious.

2.) Syrian Christians for Peace have said (to the same website that Raymond Ibrahim linked to) that this news seems like a fabrication by the Syrian regime/its supporters and they criticized those spreading (likely false) information for not verifying it before propagating it. Who is this Sister Raghad, is she really a nun, what's her real & full name, what monastery is she associated with, does the school they mentioned she is a part of really exist, what year did she join it, etc.

They also say that the Syrian regime has invented/introduced a new nun to support their image after the previous nun (Mother Agnes) who was allied with them was pretty much exposed. If this one is also exposed, the regime will put another one in her place.

3.) Even if Raghad is real and she's telling the truth, where does it say that the fighters were from Jabhat an-Nusrah?

I'm all for judging by the apparent but how does that translate to saying I don't believe Muslims harm anyone? I would hope that people would believe that I only try to look at everything through Islaamic lenses. This is why I will condemn those who torch churches specifically, regardless of who does it. This is why I will condemn those who force non-Muslims to convert to Islaam since it goes directly against a verse of the Qur'aan.

LBaM,

Christians in Muslims countries always downplay their plight publically. They are intimidated- this is well known. Go over the to the Oriental Orthodox forum and you will soon find out for yourself that organised churches are afraid to speak up in a Muslim country for fear of retribution. When in a free country, they speak up. This is why the nun in question could only speak up when she is out of Syria. And if you are objective, her story isn't that much of a tall tale considering the news coming out of Syria from just about every other source.

Secondly, just because one group is nice ot them doesn't mean all of them are. There's sufficient evidence coming through that a lot of Christians are getting seriously persecuted in Syria.

 

[ContraMundum]

Contra,

Look at that picture carefully. No way would someone die crucified in that manner (except maybe of heat exhaustion.) His legs and arms are tied to the cross, not nailed. And the legs are tied in such a way that that it helps bear his weight, if that were needed. And I doubt if it would be because the cross in question is leaning against something. meaning this guy is really in a reclining position. Not exactly comfortable but it doesn't look all that tortuous, let alone deadly.

I don't know exactly what is going on here, but this is not the sort of 'crucifixion' that could kill someone or even injure them badly.

Umm...that's a horrible post. A person dies and you want to get into the details for political or religous points? I know you like to make apology for Islam here but seriously, that's just trivialising the killing of a person.

FYI- have a look at the photos on the BBC pages. The one you are referring to is the tamest one. The rest are far more brutal. I didn't link them here because I think it's not fitting for this forum.

Doesn't it concern you that whacking a dead person on a crucifix is really more about making a statement than just killing someone? What do you think that statement is?