No cause to celebrate in the Iraq elections.

[EvilDr.Frog]

Perhaps you have seen the news of a high voter turnout in Iraq, and that gives you cause to celebrate. But, unlike you, I am not dancing around and clapping. I am a stick in the mud and a Scrooge (like most critics of the war). Consider these news reports:

AP writer:

No more than 400 people voted in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, and in the heavily Sunni northern Baghdad neighborhood of Azamiyah, where Saddam made his last known public appearance in early April 2003, the four polling places never even opened.
....
Many cities in the Sunni triangle north and west of the capital, particularly Fallujah, Ramadi and Beiji, were virtually empty of voters also.

A low Sunni turnout, if that turns out to be the case, could undermine the new government that will emerge from the vote and worsen tensions among the country's ethnic, religious and cultural groups.

Fox News:

Shiite Muslims, estimated at 60 percent of Iraq's 26 million people, were expected to vote in large numbers, encouraged by clerics who hope their community will gain power after generations of oppression by the Sunni minority.

Are these the signs of a promising future for a stable democratic republic?

 

[jameseb]

Shiite Muslims, estimated at 60 percent of Iraq's 26 million people, were expected to vote in large numbers, encouraged by clerics who hope their community will gain power after generations of oppression by the Sunni minority

Are these the signs of a promising future for a stable democratic republic?

I'm confused... what about that isn't "promising?"

 

[Glaz]

I'm celebrating right along with the Iraqis.

 

[EvilDr.Frog]

I'm confused... what about that isn't "promising?"

I see it as a dangerous sign of division. The Shiites voted in large numbers to gain power over the Sunnis. How do you think the Sunnis will respond?

 

[Glaz]

I see it as a dangerous sign of division.

Dvisions in a democracry.....will wonders never cease?

 

[jameseb]

I see it as a dangerous sign of division. The Shiites voted in large numbers to gain power over the Sunnis. How do you think the Sunnis will respond?

Um.... I don't think they did it simply to get "power" over the Sunnis... I think they just voted for the candidates they thought could best serve their country. Of course the Shiites might elect more Shiite officials... the Sunnis are probalby voting for Sunnis as well, but so what? The Sunnis make up less than 25% of the population of Iraq. A lot of Sunnis---such as that blogger mentioned---will probably just accept the election results while some will be irrate and angry that they no longer have a sugar daddy in charge looking out for them. I think its irresponsible to assume that the Sunnis are all going to react in some violent way simply because democracy will never allow them to rule over the other ethnic and religious diverse people of Iraq.

 

[EvilDr.Frog]

Dvisions in a democracry.....will wonders never cease?

Of course, there are divisions in every democracy. But division can make a big difference when it manifests as a mass boycott and protest is done with AK-47s and bombs.

 

[jameseb]

Of course, there are divisions in every democracy. But division can make a big difference when it manifests as a mass boycott and protest is done with AK-47s and bombs.

And that has been happening already? There are obviously Sunni Saddam supporters who can't let go of the past.... but they are slowly losing ground.... and once a freely elected government asks the US to stay in Iraq until they are completely ready to assume control, they are going to lose all their moral support and a lot of steam will be taken away from their cause as they can no longer propagandize about an "occupation" force.

 

[alaurie]

Perhaps you have seen the news of a high voter turnout in Iraq, and that gives you cause to celebrate. But, unlike you, I am not dancing around and clapping. I am a stick in the mud and a Scrooge (like most critics of the war). Consider these news reports:

AP writer:

Fox News:

Are these the signs of a promising future for a stable democratic republic?

No one but the most starry-eyed optimist thinks today is a resolution to all Iraq's problems. But it's a great start. Large turnouts and much, much less violence than predicted point towards an end to the war you oppose. Do you think that even those of us in support of our involvement in toppling Hussein actually like war? Or wish that loved ones will have to stay in harms way?

Not necessarily pointing a finger at you, although do ask yourself if my question might even in a small way apply... I've wondered today as I've viewed different ideological sites at the lack of praise for the 'relatively' smooth elections at anti-war and anti-republican sites. Are political camps so strong in this country that some can't even rejoice at the first steps of a once tyrannized people towards freedom simply because of political ideology? I hope not.

And if you'll pay attention to posts here, you'll notice that those of us who've prayed fervently for exactly what today brought - high voter turnout with much less bloodshed than expected - still see the need to continue in prayer for this hopefully emerging democracy. I know I've posted the need for prayer for this more than once and have seen it posted by others many times. He's an awesome God we pray to , and he's faithful to hear the voices of his people.

 

[seebs]

Wow, you think that's bad? In the US, nearly everyone who voted was trying to get power for one group over another. Nearly everyone!

 

[EvilDr.Frog]

Um.... I don't think they did it simply to get "power" over the Sunnis... I think they just voted for the candidates they thought could best serve their country. Of course the Shiites might elect more Shiite officials... the Sunnis are probalby voting for Sunnis as well, but so what? The Sunnis make up less than 25% of the population of Iraq. A lot of Sunnis---such as that blogger mentioned---will probably just accept the election results while some will be irrate and angry that they no longer have a sugar daddy in charge looking out for them. I think its irresponsible to assume that the Sunnis are all going to react in some violent way simply because democracy will never allow them to rule over the other ethnic and religious diverse people of Iraq.

I think you are projecting too many ideas from our own culture onto the state of affairs in Iraq. My views are different. A mass boycott of the vote among Sunnis means that the Sunnis have no respect for the elected government. This makes them unlikely to pay taxes, pay fines, sit on juries, obey the laws, and sit quietly while a competing religious group punishes them for their lack of participation in civil affairs.

 

[EvilDr.Frog]

Wow, you think that's bad? In the US, nearly everyone who voted was trying to get power for one group over another. Nearly everyone!

Have you seen any Democrat blow the brains out of a Republican over it?

 

[jameseb]

I think you are projecting too many ideas from our own culture onto the state of affairs in Iraq. My views are different. A mass boycott of the vote among Sunnis means that the Sunnis have no respect for the elected government. This makes them unlikely to pay taxes, pay fines, sit on juries, obey the laws, and sit quietly while a competing religious group punishes them for their lack of participation in civil affairs.

How do you even know what my "culture" is? Regardless, that has nothing to do with this case... the majority of registered voters in Iraq--------Sunnis included------went to the polls and voted. There are of course dectractors... heh, as if the insurgency wasn't a clue of that... but the majority of Iraqis aren't boycotting or blowing people up; they wanted to vote and did just that in the face of dire threats by these very people you are apparently using to suggest there's nothing about today to celebrate. In this you couldn't be more wrong... the fact that so many did go out and vote despite the threats against their lives speaks to their courage and the will of the Iraqi people.

 

[alaurie]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/8056436a-732d-11d9-86a0-00000e2511c8.html


However, some Sunni districts also witnessed high turnout. In one school in the west Baghdad neighbourhood of al-Ameriya, election officials reported that nearly 50 per cent of the voters on the list had shown up to cast their ballots by midday.
The district lies just across a highway from the headquarters of the Muslim Scholars' Front, Iraq's most influential Sunni religious authority, which had said elections under foreign occupation were invalid and called for a boycott.


From abc:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1292065.htm
He says some booths had not opened at first around Sunni areas of western Baghdad and in the stretch of Sunni towns in the Sunni triangle, but that problem has now been solved.

 

[alaurie]

And that's all for me. It's been a great day for many people around the world ...we'll know the long-term effects of the elections ...well, in time

It's a little early IMO to be Scroogish.

 

[EvilDr.Frog]

How do you even know what my "culture" is? Regardless, that has nothing to do with this case... the majority of registered voters in Iraq--------Sunnis included------went to the polls and voted. There are of course dectractors... heh, as if the insurgency wasn't a clue of that... but the majority of Iraqis aren't boycotting or blowing people up; they wanted to vote and did just that in the face of dire threats by these very people you are apparently using to suggest there's nothing about today to celebrate. In this you couldn't be more wrong... the fact that so many did go out and vote despite the threats against their lives speaks to their courage and the will of the Iraqi people.

The group of people who had the most threats against their lives were the Sunnis. And the threats (as well as the mass boycott) has worked. You say that the high voter turnout speaks highly of the courage and the will of the Iraqi people. I say that the high voter turnout speaks highly of the courage and will of merely the Shiites. And I predict that the Sunnis will express their courage and will with much more unpleasant methods.

 

[Redneck]

And that's all for me. It's been a great day for many people around the world ...we'll know the long-term effects of the elections ...well, in time

It's a little early IMO to be Scroogish.

Didn't Scrooge eventually come around and become nice?

 

[jameseb]

The group of people who had the most threats against their lives were the Sunnis. And the threats (as well as the mass boycott) has worked. You say that the high voter turnout speaks highly of the courage and the will of the Iraqi people. I say that the high voter turnout speaks highly of the courage and will of merely the Shiites. And I predict that the Sunnis will express their courage and will with much more unpleasant methods.

Okie-doke. I'm not seeing this discussion going anywhere so I'm just gonna slip out and watch some DVD's for a bit. Maybe later I'll be up for some arguing where neither side gives an inch and no one's opinion is ever swayed.... you know, the usual.

 

[jamesrwright3]

T And I predict that the Sunnis will express their courage and will with much more unpleasant methods.

Well then, those that would use such methods have to be deal with severely. There is really no excuse for such behavior in a democratic society where they have the power to express their views and fight for their interests in a peaceful and constructive manner. The alternative is to let tyranny be the order of the day, and that is wholly unacceptable. The Sunnis have to learn to play by the rules, and I am guessing that they start to do so because Iraq is not going back to the way it was before.

The Sunnis make up about 20% of the population, and maybe half of the elgible Sunnis participated. The vote is still going to relflect the will of the majority of the people within Iraq.

 

[EvilDr.Frog]

Didn't Scrooge eventually come around and become nice?

Bah-humbug.