No assurance of Salvation is not equal to No Salvation

[Albion]

We will be rewarded for what we have done for Jesus.

If we are among the saved, that is. The point therefore begs the question.

 

[Call me Nic]

If that's the case then James wouldn't have mentioned.
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. "(James 2:19)

James is speaking of a demonstration of faith. A justification of faith, not a justification of righteousness. There is a difference. How can a man justify his faith if he doesn't have works? He can't. But a man can have faith without works and be saved, because God sees inwardly with the Holy Spirit bearing witness of that man's spirit, that he is a son of God (Romans 4:5, Titus 3:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:16).

 

[Oldmantook]

We struggle in doing what is right and loving though.

Indeed we do; I do also. We battle against the flesh. That is why we are instructed to persevere and finish the race.

 

[Jonaitis]

James is saying that faith without works is dead. What is a dead faith? No faith. In other words, if you don't have works, you don't have faith. James then says, how can that sort of faith save him? It cannot, because it doesn't exist, and this is evident by the fruitlessness of that faith. A man is justified by a faith that works. Abraham demonstrated his faith by his works, and it justified him of his faith. This is why he said, show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

 

[ilovejcsog]

If you can't trust in God for your salvation then you better stay on your knees for the rest of your life. You make it sound like one day you lose it and the next you get it back and the next you lose it, etc..................faith in God for your salvation

 

[Call me Nic]

James is saying that faith without works is dead. What is a dead faith? No faith. In other words, if you don't have works, you don't have faith. James then says, how can that sort of faith save him? It cannot, because it doesn't exist, and this is evident by the fruitlessness of that faith. A man is justified by a faith that works. Abraham demonstrated his faith by his works, and it justified him of his faith. This is why he said, show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

I see what you're saying, brother, but let me ask you this. Is it a rule that faith have works in order for that individual to be saved? What if the man who has faith has not works, such as the man to whom God will not impute sin in Romans 4:6-8? Is he not able to be saved, because he didn't prove that his faith isn't dead by his works?

 

[Cement]

well at least i know that when i come and finally meet Jesus face to face he wont say he never knew me.

 

[Call me Nic]

If you can't trust in God for your salvation then you better stay on your knees for the rest of your life. You make it sound like one day you lose it and the next you get it back and the next you lose it, etc..................faith in God for your salvation

That's actually what some people on these forums believe - that one day you may be in the kingdom, and another day, you're out.

 

[Oldmantook]

How do we know that? What I read repeatedly is just that we have to perform works. But if it is quality, are you able to rank the possible good deeds for us according to quality?

I suggest you read 1st John which is an excellent reference on the believer's assurance. I already cited several verses from that book on how we can have assurance based upon the quality of our lives - see my post #11.

 

[Not David]

How about actually reading the whole passage? James clearly states that the discussion is about a faithless person without evident works from faith.

It talks about dead faith.
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." So both faith and works, not faith alone, not works alone.

 

[ilovejcsog]

That's actually what some people on these forums believe - that one day you may be in the kingdom, and another day, you're out.

That's not my savior. We all sin every day so we lose our salvation every day? Poor Jesus. His death didn't mean much did it?

 

[Jonaitis]

I see what you're saying, brother, but let me ask you this. Is it a rule that faith have works in order for that individual to be saved? What if the man who has faith has not works, such as the man to whom God will not impute sin in Romans 4:6-8? Is he not able to be saved, because he didn't prove that his faith isn't dead by his works?

I don't think it is in the realm of reality to be converted and not show some sort of evidence of that faith. Repentance is the first evidence of faith, do you agree? We carry this on throughout the rest of our lives, from the moment we believed, but we also mature toward holiness.

 

[Call me Nic]

It talks about dead faith.
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." So both faith and works, not faith alone, not works alone.

Then how do you reconcile the multitude of scriptures that contradict James, like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5-6, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 10:9-13, Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31, John 3:16, John 3:18, John 5:24, John 6:47, etc?

Hint: they don't actually contradict when correctly compared.

 

[Not David]

Abraham was counted righteous before God prior to Isaac's birth. The offering of Isaac was merely a justification of Abraham's faith. Abraham's faith had already previously justified him before God, however. Scripture is clear in this.

Genesis 15:4 "And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

James is indeed speaking of justification, but Romans 4:2-3 is clear that Abraham's works did not justify him before God. So in who's eyes does works justify a man? Before the eyes of other men.

James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." This is a conversation between two men, one with works, one without. Both have faith, but only one can prove their faith by their works.

This is a core biblical truth, in which men judge the outward appearance, and God judges the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7 "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

Romans 4:2-5 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (This proves that the justification in James of Abraham is not of God, but of men). For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness (in Genesis 15, before Isaac's birth). Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (That is, faith in Christ according to Romans 5:1-2)."

Except that you need to read Genesis. His faith is based on him doing what God told him to do.

 

[Not David]

Yes, boast in Christ for something outside yourself.

I still can do it, boasting in something God gave me and not someone else.

 

[Jonaitis]

I still can do it, boasting in something God gave me and not someone else.

What was different about you, that you chose this path, and not the atheist next door? Ah, something to boast about.

 

[Call me Nic]

I don't think it is in the realm of reality to be converted and not show some sort of evidence of that faith. Repentance is the first evidence of faith, do you agree? We carry this on throughout the rest of our lives, from the moment we believed, but we also mature toward holiness.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't see outlined in scripture a hard and fast rule that says every believer will mature in the faith. I see what believers should and are supposed to do, but I don't see what will happen for every believer. The Corinthians were babes in Christ in the first epistle that Paul wrote to them, carnal and not spiritual. They were having a hard time bearing fruits, yet they were called saints.

I think one can argue that the Holy Spirit influences all believers toward obedience to God and righteous living in accordance to what scripture calls us to do, but the argument is just as valid on the other end that some believers can and will quench the Holy Spirit's work within their lives. They may be saved, but they are the thorny soil that is choked by the cares of the world, and doesn't bring forth fruit to perfection.

 

[CodyFaith]

I believe you can have assurance of salvation.

1 John 5:13 states:
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I don't believe that means if you don't have assurance that automatically means you aren't saved. A lot of people are lost in various doctrines that go against OSAS/eternal security. And so naturally they would not look to God/the Spirit to give them such assurance, because they don't believe it to be possible.

And ultimately the walk is still a walk of faith, so you cannot know in full if you are saved (all the time, anyway) or not, but a part of you knows. As Paul writes, we know "in part":
1 Corinthians 13: 9-10
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

As well in Romans 8:24,
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

This also does not mean you can never lose your assurance or doubt your assurance, because you certainly can and Satan goes back to this one frequently. If you're always busy trying to make sure you're saved, the less you will serve God, reach the lost and build the church.

 

[Not David]

Then how do you reconcile the multitude of scriptures that contradict James, like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5-6, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 10:9-13, Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31, John 3:16, John 3:18, John 5:24, John 6:47, etc?

Hint: they don't actually contradict when correctly compared.

Paul never said faith alone and the works he mentions are the Jewish Law.
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13)
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Paul talking about losing salvation:
"But I discipline my body and keep it under control,[a] lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." (1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Jonaitis]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't see outlined in scripture a hard and fast rule that says every believer will mature in the faith. I see what believers should and are supposed to do, but I don't see what will happen for every believer. The Corinthians were babes in Christ in the first epistle that Paul wrote to them, carnal and not spiritual. They were having a hard time bearing fruits, yet they were called saints.

I think one can argue that the Holy Spirit influences all believers toward obedience to God and righteous living in accordance to what scripture calls us to do, but the argument is just as valid on the other end that some believers can and will quench the Holy Spirit's work within their lives. They may be saved, but they are the thorny soil that is choked by the cares of the world, and doesn't bring forth fruit to perfection.

I will ask again, do you believe repentance (at its beginning) is the first evidence of faith? Let's take the maturity out of the picture, you remain a babe for the rest of your Christian life.