Nihilism vs. Theistic Existentialism

[SaintJaques]

I am an 18 year old student attending a secular community college in Los Angeles, CA. Most college students my age who have some level of intellectuality, have what's called an "existential crisis", in which they contemplate existence, purpose, reality, morality, futility, destiny, politics, etc.

However, I've been experiencing my existential crisis for about two and a half years. I have been well aware of nihilism for some time, and as depressing as it is, I feel much of it makes sense. Sometimes I feel that the only thing that sets humans apart from animals is that, all man-made aesthetics aside (technology, politics, etc.) we are the only multicellular organisms that are also sentient beings (as far as we're aware of). Sure it's a significant difference, but when comparing grand-scheme of our physiological makeup to a bonobo (which has a 98% similarity to the genetic makeup of homo sapiens), it's such a small thing... we're just intellectually-advanced animals whose only purpose is to procreate. That's so depressing.

I find theistic existentialism to be ideal. It's the thought that God has planned the world to be the way it is today, and He has laid out a scenario for me to work with; however, I have complete and total control over my own life and I am responsible for anything and everything that happens to me and involves me. I find it to be an independent and significantly more optimistic outlook on life, but it's not always that easy to sustain such positivity.

To put it bluntly, I need proof that I am (and that you are) more than just a super-intellectual animal. Not that I have a purpose, but that my life is worth something. That my lonely physical existence on this planet won't be forgotten in 100 years amongst the other 6,709,891,133 people on this planet as of 7/14/08 at 6:20pm GMT. That I'm not just an insignificant speck in the grand-scheme of life, just 1/1,000,000 of an atom of a molecule of a dust particle that just brushed past the continuing train moving a BILLION miles an hour, that is everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen in God's creation. I need to know that I am more than almost nothing.

 

[Drwhat]

Hi bearwolftigerlion,
your thestic existentialism is based on the idea that man has a free-will, can you tell me how you possess such a phantom idea? God is responsible for all of mankind and all the universe and all that is in it. We are only ever held accountable to Him for our actions, I.e., our choices that we make good or bad in circumstances in life that we have no control over, those choices being temporal to us we feel they are of our own volition and to us they are, but to God He knows are every move, before time began. We don't need to get God of the hook He is fully responsible for all our ends and He knows fully what He is doing.

And if your looking for me to tell you that we're more than super intelligent beasts then keep looking. Man is a beast, read the bible.
Eccl 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Eccl 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Nor is man super intelligent he just thinks he is, mans wisdom is but folly to God Almighty. Man is nothing more than clay in the potter's hand, not a puppet, not a robot, but simple clap to be moulded as the potter wills.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Jeremiah [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in my hand, O house of Israel. Happy hunting dude as you slowly come to realise that it is God working all things to His will.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]If you need anymore help with that fertile mind of yours don't hesitate to bug me, I'll be more than happy to show you just how stupid Iam. God bless. [/FONT]

 

[IndomitableAmy]

Sigh. I could tear your post apart, I really could, bwtl.. but what would be the point of that?

I don't know if you'll be forgotten in 100 years or not. But whether you're remembered or not doesn't affect the worth of your life. If you influence another person and, because of that, they influence others in turn.. it is the ripple-effect, you see. So whether your name is remembered years hence or not, you will have still had an effect, your life will have mattered. That is no proof, I am sure, but it is enough for me so maybe it will be enough for you. I consider spreading benevolence a good thing and I know I have affected others. For that, I am happy.

Oh, and, for what it's worth, the entire universe is mostly empty space. Everything is nothing in comparison with the totality.. but each thing has its own place... including you and I. Despair is not worth it.

 

[firstborn888]

To put it bluntly, I need proof that I am (and that you are) more than just a super-intellectual animal.

Yes, there is a animal side to human nature, no doubt. But don't let DNA similarities fool you. There is something so completely radically drastically and totally different about humans that it's not even remotely a close call (and no 'missing link' in sight).

The only way anyone could believe that is to be brainwashed into it, by something like, say... 12 years in a public school?

blessings,
- Byron

 

[Bellicus]

To put it bluntly, I need proof that I am (and that you are) more than just a super-intellectual animal.

There is no proof for this, and there will never be. If your opinion is that we are gods, like Jesus said, then this is based on faith. Scientifically christianity makes no sense at all, this the bible point out by saying it is a foolishness for heathens, and that we are fools for Christ by having faith in him. One day everyone will see what foolishness really are, but not in this life.

 

[christian.soldier33]

Sure scientifically Christianity makes no sense at all but that is because your interpretive framework in fallible, ever-changing, and often contradictory science. It also doesn't help that Christianity noadays is more based of experience and fideism than knowledge and proof (the later is what we are commanded to base it on). Reason is what we should use to interpret and God's revelation of Himself has no flaws.

To answer the OP, we are animals. This is why scientists find so many similarities. The only significance is that God breathed life into us and not anything else. We are logical creatures. This does not take away hope though. It helps us to understand God more fully. The purpose of humankind is to glorify God and enjoy him forever through His works of creation and providence in the things that have been made. This is called the work of dominion and was commanded by God in the creation of man. It is an impossible work for two people which is why they were also commonded to reproduce. The work is cumulative so each and every person (given they are responsible with their time and talent) contributes which is why we have made progress (if only a little) throughout world history in understanding the things that have been made. This is all to say that every single person is significant.

 

[SaintJaques]

I thank all of you for your input on my dilemma. Some of you have provided advice that is very enlightening (particularly ImdonmitableAmy sharing her philosophy of the "ripple effect"). Unfortunately some of it was not only contradictory to my personal beliefs, but came off as somewhat critical and negative.

I suppose I have not provided enough information about my background, I have a feeling that if I do you will understand my situation a bit more. I certainly do not come from the most "ideal" Christian environment. I come from a once conservative Christian family that is now a very liberal and broken family (divorced parents, younger sister has moved out due to confrontations with my father). I have attended public schooling all of my life in a town in the Los Angeles area. I am currently enrolled in my second year of college. I am a practicing artist with very diverse and radical beliefs (most of which are not accepted and in fact looked down upon by the church), my girlfriend is not religious and in fact looks down upon my faith in God, and, above all other things, I'm only 18 years old. I'm still very young, and I'm told that I am wise beyond my years, but there is still much for me to learn (which is why I came to CF in the first place).

Again, thank you all so much for your advice. If you have any other thoughts on this subject, please post them, I'm very interested in hearing them. I am not going to respond to any of you just yet, because I am still making sense of what you had to say. For now I'm just going to watch and listen, but I will let you all know when I have come to a conclusion.

 

[IndomitableAmy]

I thank all of you for your input on my dilemma. Some of you have provided advice that is very enlightening (particularly ImdonmitableAmy sharing her philosophy of the "ripple effect"). Unfortunately some of it was not only contradictory to my personal beliefs, but came off as somewhat critical and negative.

I'm glad you appreciated what I said.. As to things being contradictory to your beliefs, yeah, that's going to happen. There's not agreement within Christianity on many (I daresay most) issues. Everyone would get someone saying something contradictory to their beliefs. Hardly worth mentioning. Critical and negative.. that too. Some people don't have great self-control and others simply do not realize they are being negative. I figure it's best to presume ignorance and vent privately if necessary.

I suppose I have not provided enough information about my background, I have a feeling that if I do you will understand my situation a bit more.

Maybe. Dunno.

I certainly do not come from the most "ideal" Christian environment. I come from a once conservative Christian family that is now a very liberal and broken family (divorced parents, younger sister has moved out due to confrontations with my father). I have attended public schooling all of my life in a town in the Los Angeles area. I am currently enrolled in my second year of college.

What in the world, I wonder, would constitute the most "ideal" Christian environment? I suspect it's a myth, a genuine Utopia (that is, no place.) So there is no worry. None of us is from such a home. Personally, I am from a religious but abusive household. Their professed beliefs are conservative, I suppose, but I hardly think people with conservative beliefs are better. I went to public school and university, too.. but I hardly think those influences my religious beliefs.

I am a practicing artist with very diverse and radical beliefs (most of which are not accepted and in fact looked down upon by the church), my girlfriend is not religious and in fact looks down upon my faith in God, and, above all other things, I'm only 18 years old. I'm still very young, and I'm told that I am wise beyond my years, but there is still much for me to learn (which is why I came to CF in the first place).

I'm sure the people at WWMC would welcome you in sharing your "diverse and radical beliefs" as well as your continuing journey (provided you can play nice and don't think we're evil.)

I know you've probably heard this.. it's probably not a good thing your SO looks down on your beliefs.

I understand you're 18. I don't hold it against you and I hope you don't hold my age against me. I won't call you "wise beyond your years". (Funny phrase, that.) I can see you being 18.

Again, thank you all so much for your advice. If you have any other thoughts on this subject, please post them, I'm very interested in hearing them. I am not going to respond to any of you just yet, because I am still making sense of what you had to say. For now I'm just going to watch and listen, but I will let you all know when I have come to a conclusion.

You're very welcome and I shall... but for goodness sakes don't try to come to a conclusion or at least realize that any "conclusion" is tentative. Learning and growing (hopefully) go on long beyond the age of 18. I don't expect you to come to a conclusion but I do hope you find a comfortable resting-spot.

I know I am important because I have affected others. Not by doing anything big, either. I am nothing you would call great. But I know that I have made a difference and I know that I can continue to make a difference. I know that small things can make a great difference in this world. I know that we humans both as individuals and as a group function best when we keep love, goodwill, etc in mind. As a Christian, yes, I think we were created that way and that this is the basis for the laws of Christ. As an engineer, I know this is what feels right and, well, what works. Not to be Kantian about it, but I do believe it's what would work best if every person on earth held to that... and it doesn't hurt one if others don't abide by it, either. Living this way even makes one feel good. (I don't take that as evidence that there is no such thing as altruism but that we are made for it.)

If I can stop one heart from breaking,
I shall not live in vain;
If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain,
Or help one fainting robin
Unto his nest again,
I shall not live in vain.
-- Emily Dickinson

As I said, the universe being almost entirely empty space, each thing in it is nothing compared to the immensity of the whole, however, all those insignifacant specks, taken together, are the whole thing.

I have not done anything big. I probably will not do anything big. Indeed, most people probably never do any grand act. But all those little things taken together likely add up to the greatest thing in the world. And so I do not despair over that.

 

[Mike77]

Animal dude, you sound like you're ripe for poaching by the mysterious and much maligned field of CONTINENTAL PHILOSOPHY! The resolute attempt to bring together concepts and life. Time, desire, death, freedom, multiplicity, politics, and the pure affirmation of Being!

Ok, I sound liked a used car salesman. But seriously, there's stuff you should read.

Blaise Pascal - Pensees

Friedrich Nietzsche - The Genealogy of Morals

Jean-Paul Sartre - Existentialism is a Humanism

Alain Badiou - Ethics

 

[wayseer]

For now I'm just going to watch and listen, but I will let you all know when I have come to a conclusion.

Dear bwtl, there is no conclusion that needs to be reached.

But as you have rightly noted in your first post, I need to know that I am more than almost nothing - note your use of the word 'almost'. Almost nothing is not nothing - and you have learned a most valuable lesson thus far - a lesson which, I suspect, evades many. Humility is the first lesson.

 

[HighwayMan]

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do".

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Dear bwtl, there is no conclusion that needs to be reached.

But as you have rightly noted in your first post, I need to know that I am more than almost nothing - note your use of the word 'almost'. Almost nothing is not nothing - and you have learned a most valuable lesson thus far - a lesson which, I suspect, evades many. Humility is the first lesson.

Excellent post. Short and to the point. I will add that humility is a important phase in intellectual and moral development. Humility is not to say that man cannot act, or should not, or that man is somehow worthless. It is, instead, an affirmation of man's capacities and a recognition of his conditions; his place in the universal order. Once idealism is destroyed (by nihilism), it is important to rebuild. Humility, I would suggest, is a part of that new foundation.

It is inevitable for idealism to be destroyed because it lacks a firm foundation. It is a preconceived view of how the world ought to be, and when the world does not conform to that view, idealism invariably fails. But the loss of idealism is not necessarily the same as the loss of hope, life, and value. Even the original poster affirmed some value by asserting his desire to know that his life is more than "almost nothing".

I think it is interesting to note the parallels in Nietzsche's philosophy with Christianity. He asserts that men killed God through nihilism. Because God is dead, there are no moral values. Thus it is important for man to reaffirm value and life through the power of his will, in turn destroying nihilism. Hence the 'Over-Man'. The very origin of sin in the Adam and Eve story speaks to this same event -- men "kill" God by rejecting him. It thus became necessary to destroy death. Christ dies and rises, reaffirming value and life through the power of God's will. Is Christ not the "Over-Man"? And if we "walk" Christ's path, are we not likewise affirming value and life as 'Over-Men'?

 

[wayseer]

I think it is interesting to note the parallels in Nietzsche's philosophy with Christianity. He asserts that men killed God through nihilism. Because God is dead, there are no moral values. Thus it is important for man to reaffirm value and life through the power of his will, in turn destroying nihilism. Hence the 'Over-Man'. The very origin of sin in the Adam and Eve story speaks to this same event -- men "kill" God by rejecting him. It thus became necessary to destroy death. Christ dies and rises, reaffirming value and life through the power of God's will. Is Christ not the "Over-Man"? And if we "walk" Christ's path, are we not likewise affirming value and life as 'Over-Men'?

Interesting, and somewhat of a gnostic point. I have not considered the concept in those terms. Thank you.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Interesting, and somewhat of a gnostic point. I have not considered the concept in those terms. Thank you.

In parallelism, perhaps, but certainly not in content.

 

[Mike77]

I think it is interesting to note the parallels in Nietzsche's philosophy with Christianity. He asserts that men killed God through nihilism. Because God is dead, there are no moral values. Thus it is important for man to reaffirm value and life through the power of his will, in turn destroying nihilism. Hence the 'Over-Man'. The very origin of sin in the Adam and Eve story speaks to this same event -- men "kill" God by rejecting him. It thus became necessary to destroy death. Christ dies and rises, reaffirming value and life through the power of God's will. Is Christ not the "Over-Man"? And if we "walk" Christ's path, are we not likewise affirming value and life as 'Over-Men'?

I'll have to disagree with your interpretation of Nietzsche, and of the Fall.

It isn't a matter of "reaffirming" values for Nietzsche - as if nihilism destroyed value X, and the will of the overman rescues value X. No, what Nietzsche calls for is a creation of new values - and this is the hard part - while doing away with the category of value all together. This sort of results in an "abyss of freedom" type thing; we all have to develop our own values, without asserting the old position of value as such. We also have to do away with the concept of "man" - remember, man is nothing other than a "going-over" to the overman. We have no souls to save (souls are a creation of language - the "I do X").

As for the Fall, if you're going to read it as a myth, it is actually the death of man, not God. It was the end of any full and complete human essence. The death of God was on the cross - "why have you forsaken me?" being the end of a unified God.

Yeah yeah, there are a billion theological problems with what I've said; I'm explaining Nietzsche (and 19th-century German philosophy in general).

 

[wayseer]

I'll have to disagree with your interpretation of Nietzsche, and of the Fall.

It isn't a matter of "reaffirming" values for Nietzsche - as if nihilism destroyed value X, and the will of the overman rescues value X. No, what Nietzsche calls for is a creation of new values - and this is the hard part - while doing away with the category of value all together. This sort of results in an "abyss of freedom" type thing; we all have to develop our own values, without asserting the old position of value as such. We also have to do away with the concept of "man" - remember, man is nothing other than a "going-over" to the overman. We have no souls to save (souls are a creation of language - the "I do X").

As for the Fall, if you're going to read it as a myth, it is actually the death of man, not God. It was the end of any full and complete human essence. The death of God was on the cross - "why have you forsaken me?" being the end of a unified God.

Then it appears Highwayman has it right If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do

 

[AmericanCatholic]

I'll have to disagree with your interpretation of Nietzsche, and of the Fall.

It isn't a matter of "reaffirming" values for Nietzsche - as if nihilism destroyed value X, and the will of the overman rescues value X. No, what Nietzsche calls for is a creation of new values - and this is the hard part - while doing away with the category of value all together. This sort of results in an "abyss of freedom" type thing; we all have to develop our own values, without asserting the old position of value as such. We also have to do away with the concept of "man" - remember, man is nothing other than a "going-over" to the overman. We have no souls to save (souls are a creation of language - the "I do X").

As for the Fall, if you're going to read it as a myth, it is actually the death of man, not God. It was the end of any full and complete human essence. The death of God was on the cross - "why have you forsaken me?" being the end of a unified God.

Yeah yeah, there are a billion theological problems with what I've said; I'm explaining Nietzsche (and 19th-century German philosophy in general).

I agree. That was Nietzsche's intent. I only aimed to illustrate several strains of commonality between his philosophy and Christianity -- not to somehow demonstrate that he was Christian. As for the Fall, Nietzsche asserted that God was killed by men on the basis that men no longer recognized him as the origin of morality -- not necessarily that God did not exist. Similarly, one could argue that sin is a kind of "murder" of God because it rejects the authority of God.

 

[SaintJaques]

Animal dude, you sound like you're ripe for poaching by the mysterious and much maligned field of CONTINENTAL PHILOSOPHY! The resolute attempt to bring together concepts and life. Time, desire, death, freedom, multiplicity, politics, and the pure affirmation of Being!

Ok, I sound liked a used car salesman. But seriously, there's stuff you should read.

Blaise Pascal - Pensees

Friedrich Nietzsche - The Genealogy of Morals

Jean-Paul Sartre - Existentialism is a Humanism

Alain Badiou - Ethics

Friedrich Nietzsche wins-- I've read some of his stuff in the past, really good. I actually found this in the back of my grandmother's bookshelf. I asked her if she knew she had Nietzsche material, but she doesn't even know who he is. I'm reading it now, this helps.

 

[SaintJaques]

Excellent post. Short and to the point. I will add that humility is a important phase in intellectual and moral development. Humility is not to say that man cannot act, or should not, or that man is somehow worthless. It is, instead, an affirmation of man's capacities and a recognition of his conditions; his place in the universal order. Once idealism is destroyed (by nihilism), it is important to rebuild. Humility, I would suggest, is a part of that new foundation.

It is inevitable for idealism to be destroyed because it lacks a firm foundation. It is a preconceived view of how the world ought to be, and when the world does not conform to that view, idealism invariably fails. But the loss of idealism is not necessarily the same as the loss of hope, life, and value. Even the original poster affirmed some value by asserting his desire to know that his life is more than "almost nothing".

I think it is interesting to note the parallels in Nietzsche's philosophy with Christianity. He asserts that men killed God through nihilism. Because God is dead, there are no moral values. Thus it is important for man to reaffirm value and life through the power of his will, in turn destroying nihilism. Hence the 'Over-Man'. The very origin of sin in the Adam and Eve story speaks to this same event -- men "kill" God by rejecting him. It thus became necessary to destroy death. Christ dies and rises, reaffirming value and life through the power of God's will. Is Christ not the "Over-Man"? And if we "walk" Christ's path, are we not likewise affirming value and life as 'Over-Men'?

Boy oh boy, I've got a ton of Nietzsche to read. I've also picked up Beyond Good & Evil again, it was pretty difficult to read a couple of years back, but I'm getting back into it now. Thank you for your fantastic insight.

 

[SaintJaques]

Dear bwtl, there is no conclusion that needs to be reached.

But as you have rightly noted in your first post, I need to know that I am more than almost nothing - note your use of the word 'almost'. Almost nothing is not nothing - and you have learned a most valuable lesson thus far - a lesson which, I suspect, evades many. Humility is the first lesson.

This is perhaps the best thing I've seen in this thread. It is reassuring to know that I'm at least making progress. But what do I do now?