Is Nightwish a Christian Band? Or is Their Music Satanic?

[Arthyron]

Paladin Dave, young'un, don't tell me what I can and cannot have an opinion on. You cannot possibly know what I do and do not know. You are a child, and whether you realize it or not, there are songs that will stunt your growth the way drugs will stunt the growth of your body. I only wish to warn, out of love. If you choose not to heed my warnings, fine - but you are out of your element in criticising me.

bless you in Christ
tal

Firstly, this post is an Ad Hominem fallacy as well as an Appeal to Age fallacy (not one of the recognized ones, but it should be, I guess it overlaps with the Appeal to Authority fallacy).

Instead of addressing the individual and specific claims he made regarding the lyrics and your inaccurate representation of them, you attack his credibility by touting your age as some sort of source of authority on symphonic heavy metal. This is the Ad Hominem.

Secondly after the Ad Hominem, your only rebuttal was the fact that you're old. Now of course with age does sometimes come wisdom, but with it does NOT come omniscience. You have not listened to the band extensively, you are unfamiliar with those who write their songs and their motivations and reasons for doing so (which have largely been explained in some cases). It is you is truly not accredited to speak on such matters. The young may always criticize the old if the old are out of line or preaching falsehoods. If the old were truly correct, then their arguments and wisdom would stand up to scrutiny. Your's did neither.

Do not presume to lecture anyone on matters which you are unfamiliar or uninformed about, regardless of how old you are. Age does not make up for a lack of information. I mean the very fact that you allowed "depressing" music control you to the point where you almost committed suicide...I don't know anyone who has been that influenced by music.

It's all as Christ said. "What goes into a man does not make him unclean, but rather that which comes out of a man, that is what makes him unclean." If you are weak-minded enough to be lead into sin by music, then you probably shouldn't be listening to music. But if you're not such a person, or if the bands you're listening to don't influence you to sin, then there is zero harm in it.

Nightwish is a tremendous band, and many of their songs have been very uplifting and helped me through some tough times. I will not allow people who don't know what they're talking about defame them by quoting isolated snippets of lyrics (which is no different than the heretics who quote isolated Scriptures, it's just as logically erroneus). Are Nightwish a Christian band? No. Does that make them the devil? No. I think their keyboardist (the one who writes all the songs and lyrics) is, like everyone searching for the truth and meaning in his life. I think he was at least at one point a Christian, and very well may still be, but has become disillusioned with the way the modern church acts, hence some of the more inflammatory lyrics.

But if you consider the sum of all their lyrics, instead of deceitfully misrepresenting snippets of lyrics here and there to prove your maligned and misinformed point, you'll see that there is actually a positive spin put on God, even if it denounces the dogmatic institutions of men. And finally "make a joyful noise unto the Lord." Who are you or anyone else on this forum to claim to have the authority to define what is and what is not a joyful noise? You do not know Tuomas Holopainen's heart (the keyboardist), and to claim so is blasphemous, as only he and God know this.

Please be respectful of the things other people like, and don't be so quick to jump on that which is not overtly "Jesus and Happy Flowers" music. Some of you people really need to get outside of your little fantasy world, and take Paul's advice at being "in the world, but not of the world."

 

[Im_A]

Firstly, this post is an Ad Hominem fallacy as well as an Appeal to Age fallacy (not one of the recognized ones, but it should be, I guess it overlaps with the Appeal to Authority fallacy).

Instead of addressing the individual and specific claims he made regarding the lyrics and your inaccurate representation of them, you attack his credibility by touting your age as some sort of source of authority on symphonic heavy metal. This is the Ad Hominem.

Secondly after the Ad Hominem, your only rebuttal was the fact that you're old. Now of course with age does sometimes come wisdom, but with it does NOT come omniscience. You have not listened to the band extensively, you are unfamiliar with those who write their songs and their motivations and reasons for doing so (which have largely been explained in some cases). It is you is truly not accredited to speak on such matters. The young may always criticize the old if the old are out of line or preaching falsehoods. If the old were truly correct, then their arguments and wisdom would stand up to scrutiny. Your's did neither.

Do not presume to lecture anyone on matters which you are unfamiliar or uninformed about, regardless of how old you are. Age does not make up for a lack of information. I mean the very fact that you allowed "depressing" music control you to the point where you almost committed suicide...I don't know anyone who has been that influenced by music.

It's all as Christ said. "What goes into a man does not make him unclean, but rather that which comes out of a man, that is what makes him unclean." If you are weak-minded enough to be lead into sin by music, then you probably shouldn't be listening to music. But if you're not such a person, or if the bands you're listening to don't influence you to sin, then there is zero harm in it.

Nightwish is a tremendous band, and many of their songs have been very uplifting and helped me through some tough times. I will not allow people who don't know what they're talking about defame them by quoting isolated snippets of lyrics (which is no different than the heretics who quote isolated Scriptures, it's just as logically erroneus). Are Nightwish a Christian band? No. Does that make them the devil? No. I think their keyboardist (the one who writes all the songs and lyrics) is, like everyone searching for the truth and meaning in his life. I think he was at least at one point a Christian, and very well may still be, but has become disillusioned with the way the modern church acts, hence some of the more inflammatory lyrics.

But if you consider the sum of all their lyrics, instead of deceitfully misrepresenting snippets of lyrics here and there to prove your maligned and misinformed point, you'll see that there is actually a positive spin put on God, even if it denounces the dogmatic institutions of men. And finally "make a joyful noise unto the Lord." Who are you or anyone else on this forum to claim to have the authority to define what is and what is not a joyful noise? You do not know Tuomas Holopainen's heart (the keyboardist), and to claim so is blasphemous, as only he and God know this.

Please be respectful of the things other people like, and don't be so quick to jump on that which is not overtly "Jesus and Happy Flowers" music. Some of you people really need to get outside of your little fantasy world, and take Paul's advice at being "in the world, but not of the world."

 

[talitha]

Hominem, shmominem. You all are free to throw whatever tantrum you like at me. Doesn't threaten me in the least.

death to death and life to life
tal

 

[Paladin Dave]

Oh good! We weren't even aiming for threatening. Just correcting. We won't throw tantrums(and we haven't, really. Unless presenting a logical arguement is a tantrum), since you quit slandering Nightwish.

 

[talitha]

I have nothing against Nightwish's musicality, nor even most of the lyrics. I do sense the same spiritual force behind it all, though, as I did TMC - and was trying to warn. I do not wish to slander anyone but only to give my opinion, that this stuff is not life-giving, and my background for understanding that spiritual dynamic. I am sorry that I didn't phrase things better, but I do think that you probably ought to respect your elders more.

blessings on you
tal

 

[Paladin Dave]

I WAS being respectful. But when you get angry with me because I pointed out that you were doing something wrong, it makes me lose respect for you... age-wise, anyway. To distort their image by taking words out of context IS a form of slander, and its presenting it as fact, not your opinion. If you said "I believe", "to me", "This is how it makes me feel", then it would have been cool. I would have taken your word for it and not been pushy. Also, you will never convince anyone to see things your way by telling them you are right in what you do because of your age. As my mother, who is older than you, often says, "you cannot have wisdom without knowledge". While you had the experience and knowledge of music that drives you to a bad point, we had the knowledge of Nightwish's content and its effects on most people. This was no matter of phrasing things poorly. I was trying to be nice. I might have believed you. But after the display of character assassination you have been doing in each of your posts up until now, I don't really have much faith in what you sensed. Its harsh, I know, but your initial lack of respect for brilliant musicians or anyone who disagreed with you has turned me off. Keep it to a warning next time. We might listen then. Good day.

 

[talitha]

My age has nothing to do with why I'm right. I apologized for the way I phrased things, and asserting my age may well have been part of that. I do know the spiritual issues at work, but if you want to disregard that, it's a free country, you can.

blessings on you
tal

 

[Arthyron]

Hominem, shmominem. You all are free to throw whatever tantrum you like at me. Doesn't threaten me in the least.

death to death and life to life

Well I'm glad that I have your permission to cut loose, oh aged and authoritative one, however I do not believe that I shall have to partake of said freedom. Not once during the composition of my reply did my demeanor raise above that which it normally functions (even-keel, laid back). I'm a proponent of logic and reason in dealing with faith-based issues, as our God is not a God of blind emotion and uninformed accusations, but one of knowledge, of rationality, and forethought.

Essentially, this response of your's (all the while being yet another Ad Hominem fallacy) only further validates my claims that you only appeal to your age as grounds for the validity of your accusations. You claimed that I should throw a tantrum, implying that I am being immature or childish in the way I conduct myself, and that you, being my elder, are automatically superior in this regard. However, logic would dictate that, by being irrational (the very definition of a fallacy), that your crown of wisdom granted to you through your years of living is not genuine, but has been tarnished by the doctrines of men, and the closed mind that comes through unfortunate experiences.

You had a bad experience with a band, as you were too weak and impressionable to stave off the influence of certain music, and you wish to help others avoid the same situation. There is nothing wrong with this. I would do the same. However, the method you chose to go about this quest is what myself and several others have issue with. We possess knowledge and understanding that you do not, knowledge that cannot be attained through age alone, but through experience. We have experienced this band, and that which it produces, and, following the call and discernment of the same Holy Spirit which you also claim to be relying on to "sense" the "spirit" behind the music, have determined the band to be benign, and in most cases uplifting.

I will not allow the Holy Spirit to be blasphemed, simply because someone read some lyrics (which she doesn't really understand) of a band and has determined them to be backed by a maligned and destructive spiritual influence. All you have to go on is what you claimed to have "sensed" (which I fail to see the validity of such a conclusion, given you are unfamiliar with the band, and have not taken the time to familiarize yourself with the sum of all of it's product), and that you are our elder. We have presented logical, rational, and even Scriptural reasons to substantiate our case, as well as what we have "sensed" and the amount of wisdom that 20 or so years of life has brought us (which, while not as great as 41 years of life, is still no less valid).

You are entitled to believe as you wish as well, but do not presume to dictate to others unless God and logic (one of God's gifts to us, part of the very image in which we are created, the capacity for reason and rational thought) are on your side. The revelations you claim the Holy Spirit has given to you are not sufficient in such a task, because the Holy Spirit has not done the same for us, those who have all the other evidences and reasons to not fear that which the band produces.

 

[Theogonia]

Paladin Dave, young'un, don't tell me what I can and cannot have an opinion on. You cannot possibly know what I do and do not know. You are a child, and whether you realize it or not, there are songs that will stunt your growth the way drugs will stunt the growth of your body. I only wish to warn, out of love. If you choose not to heed my warnings, fine - but you are out of your element in criticising me.

bless you in Christ
tal

No music will do anything to you unless you believe it will.

 

[talitha]

No music will do anything to you unless you believe it will.

That is not true.

 

[kazzman]

That is not true.

Sure it is. Only problem is some people aren't stable enough to take the responsibility for their problems and they have to blame an outside source. And in many cases, music gets the blame.

 

[Arthyron]

That is not true.

Yes, and no. Music can affect you if a vulnerability or flaw is already present in a person's personality that makes them susceptible to the message being presented, but not all people are afflicted thus. So it both is true, and not true at the same time.

 

[Chrome]

Sure it is. Only problem is some people aren't stable enough to take the responsibility for their problems and they have to blame an outside source. And in many cases, music gets the blame.

or movies, or video games, or tv....

life problems are made out to be big blame games. A sad thing really

 

[MetalBlade]

or movies, or video games, or tv....

life problems are made out to be big blame games. A sad thing really

it is indeed. Maybe we should start blaming bad parenting, or bad education, or bad whatever...the real underlying facts of why people turn out the way they do. To blame video games, music, etc. and not blame the person's flaws (i.e. poor parenting, lack of knowledge, no morals, etc.) is a tragedy.

 

[RichardE]

Ahahaha devil music. Give me 30 hours to laugh my head of that this conception still exists.

 

[Kutl3ss]

Haha. Ghost Love Score is the Epic song.

You won't know what the epic song is if you don't go on ytmnd.com

 

[Ice Queen]

What are you guys' personal thoughts on "Master Passion Greed"? The lyrics caught me a bit off guard (Aye, I do know what it's about)...

 

[Paladin Dave]

Isn't it about Marcello, Tarja's... husband, right? I didn't care much for the album as a whole, with this song right up there in the grand fields of "don't care." It was a little unsettling, rather dark, and maybe a little childish. Tuomas and the lads had some bad blood to get out of their system, obviously. @_@

 

[Ice Queen]

Isn't it about Marcello, Tarja's... husband, right? I didn't care much for the album as a whole, with this song right up there in the grand fields of "don't care." It was a little unsettling, rather dark, and maybe a little childish. Tuomas and the lads had some bad blood to get out of their system, obviously. @_@

Yes it is. You can sure feel the anger in the song. I guess it would be a good song to spam if you're having a bad (very bad) day.

 

[Ice Queen]

I also intend on buying Dark Passion Play, having thoroughly enjoyed Imaginaerum. Although I am not fond of Tuomas, that man sure can write music!