Nicolaitanes

[Rdr Iakovos]

Is casual reading like casual sex?
I don't imagine so, but communion within without true unity and covenant is. Being a married man in a covenanted communion, I know little of either.
Of course, you really weren't looking for an answer, that was a rhetorical non-sequitur.

"Order" - not theres a loaded term.
Yes, just as 'freedom' is a loaded term. I look to scriptures to define order. You?

Creative God means creative order. In other words, a mess as seen by most people!

Yes, He seems real catch-as-catch can in Leviticus and Exodus, doesn't He?
"He set in the Church first, Apostles, then prophets, Evangelists, pastors, and teachers..."
Yes, a true egalitarian this 'creative God.' Not the kind of guy to stifle creativity with authority and order in the home and Church. He wouldn't impose authoriy and obedience on people and stifle their creative, expressive side, would He? Is He really that LEFT_BRAINED?

I wouldn't deny that there is order in Chaos- James Gleick wrote a lovely work by that very title, and provided pictures to prove his point.

Likewise, there is order in 'broken' families. Yes, God often blesses those things that are disorderly and broken, because He is Mercy and He is Love.

So it's all good, right? Brave new families, creative church governance, liberties with scripture.
Let's not confuse mercy with license.




http://www.flame-buoyant.com/img/photo2.jpg

FLAME ON
It wasn't a 'flame' as you claim. Rather, it was a retort, and one based in both fact and experience. Non-denominational churches still have order and authority. The pastor is the central figure, often with no accountability whatsoever. The church itself is built/gathered around his teaching gifts, and is often both led and owned by this self-same 'CEO.'

When the charismatic leader dies, leaves, or has a moral failing, the church typically crumbles. That's cult of personality.

When people oppose the direction of the 'CEO,' they are most typically told that they can worship somewhere where they 'agree with the vision.' Whose vision? Why, it's the churches vision- aka, the pastor's vision.

And so those coming from that background who wish to label episcopal/apostolic churches as 'conquering the laity' have a true lack of self-insight.

 

[Rick Otto]

What I find typical is this classic example of redefinition.

I thought when charismatic leaders threaten to create scandal, say for instance, having sex with children, nothing changes except their location.
Wait, I might be confusing organizations...
do I lack insight, or do I simply lack organizational conformity?
I'm sure I'll be "corrected" with a "retort" by our thoroughly "educated" company man.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Being a married man in a covenanted communion, I know little of either. .

Snap.

I think we see eye to eye in places.
"Mess" need not lack order. And "order" need not be "hierarchy".

I did not mention nor mean to imply licenciousness. Afterall the best game provides rules to create tensions but fluid enough to allow exploration. Maybe just like God.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I thought when charismatic leaders threaten to create scandal, say for instance, having sex with children, nothing changes except their location.
The immorality found in every tradition and sect is a grievous matter not to made into sectarian fodder, at the peril of the soul of he or she who choses to do so.
IOW- the proper response to scandal is not "aha!' but 'Lord have mercy."
This truism applies in all directions and in all circumstances.

Wait, I might be confusing organizations...
do I lack insight, or do I simply lack organizational conformity?
Well, you conform well to the anti-conformists, it would seem.
As to your 'insight'- well, why would you have to ask? Perhaps the best person to answer this question walks among the Candlesticks.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Snap.

I think we see eye to eye in places.
"Mess" need not lack order. And "order" need not be "hierarchy".

I did not mention nor mean to imply licenciousness. Afterall the best game provides rules to create tensions but fluid enough to allow exploration. Maybe just like God.

Indeed it would seem that we do see, as it were, eye to eye in some respects.

Regards
James

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

As Chris Rock says "none of us are just Liberal or Conservative, no one is one thing. I am conservative when it comes to crime, but liberal with prostitution".

I have different liberalities to Chris, but it's good to remember. Jesus, after all, conservs the God in all humans and doses us all liberally with liberty.

A "misuse" of anothers misdemeanors (such as a Priests) does not necissarily belittle "truth" nor imply superiority, but difference and perspective.

Why did I have to spell out that we agree in part.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm guessing he equates visible beaurocracy with legitimacy. That is how he thinks he can say "personality cult" and not think it is a general flaming.
He thinks I 'm making "sectarian fodder" (more flaming), but he isn't understanding that my position is that denominationalism, not just sectarinism, is faux pas.

He calls me "anti-conformist" because I don't claim one of these denoms, and their beaurocracy, as legit.
It is an anti-conformity I am happy to conform to.
My problem isn't with conforming, it is with what I'm conforming TO.

I would "have to ask" about my insight, because the insight I offer is already FROM "The guy who walks among candlesticks" as >I< know him, in contradistinction to "the guy" the "denom cults"( ) portray.

 

[icedtea]

I am about to read this thread, but from the title; I've read it was/is churches which separate the people from the laity. We are all priests with equal authority in Christ.

 

[LinkH]

I read the first half of Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History when I was in high school (not an assignment.) In it, he relates a tradition that the Nicolaitans were a sect of people who believed it was okay to commit fornication and eat meat offered to idols. That seems consistent with the text.

There was a traditional story that one of the Seven that the apostles appointed to feed widows, Nicolas, had been accused of being jealous, and offered his wife to any present to disprove the accusation. No one took him up on it, and he wasn't a part of the Nicolaitans, but somehow they got his name because of this. That is how the story went.

So Watchman Nee is not accurate in saying that there are no Nicolaitans in church history. At the very least, there are traditions about them in historical writings.

Nee was echoing certain writings from the Brethren movement on the subject. The Brethren movement was surrounded by other churches that taught one-man pastorates or traditional bishoprics over elders, and thing sof that nature. They went directly with the concept of the bishop/elder being the same person, as seen in scripture. But I think they went to far out on a limb with this Nicolaitan argument.

If you look at the context, it makes more sense to see the Nicolaitans to be libertines in terms of sexuality and idolatry than clergymen. The Brethren movement started in a time when 'folk etymology' was popular. If Nicolaitan means 'he conquers the people', then if we want to get all esoteric about the meaning of names, shouldn't we conclude that these libertines were conquering the people, rather than assuming their sin was being a dominant clergy caste? I just don't see how the idea of Nicolaitans being clergy fits the passage.

This concept of what the Nicolaitans were keeps getting repeated over and over again without proof in the Brethren Movement, the Local Church movement, and the House Church movement.

 

[Rick Otto]

I realize how many problems there are with Nee, but THIS I believe he got right.

To conquer IS to be dominate.

The way it fits the passage is is the same way it fits other passages.

Here is a prime example of Jesus puttin' the vise grips on illigitimate titles & authority:

Luke 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
47: And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
48: And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
49: And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50: And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

 

[Rick Otto]

I can't understand how you mean that "these libertines" were "conquering the people", if all you ascribe to them is sexual licentiousness.

All the passage relates is that Jesus hates their deeds, so directly translate the word.

 

[rdclmn72]

There's no doubt that the word may have meant something to those present. We just don't have much to go on, the meaning might just be lost to history.

If you were to consider all the important events within Revelations as coming from the old testament, it tends to reveal new possiblities.

The importance of this cryptic entity is a problem of practicality, if we can't explain it, we can't make use of it.

It would be nice if someone were to be able to translate it into hebrew, it just might amount to something.

 

[Rick Otto]

It CAN be explained.
And the explanation we give, indicates our thinking on the matter (be not idle):
In the New Testament message to the Churches, we find that Pergamos, "married to power," represents the unlawful marriage between the Church and paganism, or Ahab and Jezebel. The next Church era, that of Thyatira, gives us the results of that marriage. In the Church&#8217;s rise to power on a temporal plane over the kings of the earth, it formed an antichrist system. That is, the popes claimed to rule in place of Christ, calling themselves the Vicar of Christ. There is a direct parallel in this to king Ahab ruling Israel in place of Ethbaal, even as Ethbaal ruled in place of Baal as his vicar.
The name of Jezebel&#8217;s father prophesies to us of the underlying problem in the Thyatira Church era from 529 to 1517 AD. King Ahab of Israel married Jezebel, and in so doing, he joined himself with her god, Baal. Thus, he placed Israel under the power of the kingdom of Baal on earth. This set the stage for an era in which Ethbaal&#8212;through his daughter Jezebel--was the real power behind Israel&#8217;s monarchy. Ahab was a mere king; Ethbaal was a king of kings to all who worshipped Baal. In Israel, the laws of Baal replaced the laws of God as given by Moses, and it became unlawful to think differently. Jezebel then persecuted the true prophets of God and the Remnant of Grace during the days of Elijah (1 Kings 18:13).
I won't link because the site is probably considered "Anti~"
Besides, you can find more than one site just by googlin' it.

 

[Kristos]

So what's your point Rick? Summary...

 

[Rick Otto]

Buyer Beware.
God's authority has been usurped in the name "Church Authority".
The authority of revealed truth has been illegaly copyrighted & franchised.

How was that difficult to see?

Trust in men has been sold in place of trust in God.

 

[LLWHA]

Anybody here know who they are/were?

To make this simple I would say they are just more anti Christ followers of Lucifer.

If you read the Bible slowly and carefully you will read that satan took over the teachings of Jesus very fast.

Today I believe these fakes would be called christian churches. Some might just call them harlots, harlots or the mass murders of the true followers of Jesus.

You know those idol loving churches that celebrate yuletide or some just call it christmas and then there is their is love of and celebration ishtar and her eggs.

I'm sure that some true followers of Christ could go on all night exposing this evil.
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1] "When THE "High-Priest of all time" was crucified by the jewish priests; lawyers and politicians, for challenging their authority, and the "Temple Veil" to the "Holy of Holies" was destroyed, this was to show the world that, from that moment on, the priest-hood was abolished FOR EVER, except for Christ Himself. Since then, through His teachings, of the New Testament (Covenant), EVERYONE has had DIRECT ACCESS TO GOD, if they follow the teachings EXACTLY as written and not as misinterpreted and corrupted by Satan's priests, who have the audacity to say they serve Christ, when they do the opposite of what Christ says. Thereby misleading the people away from God again and into believing that God lives in a house and outside of their hearts, which is the opposite of what God wants. They teach people to sing silly songs, that help no-one, instead of teaching Christ's Teachings, about how to learn from God, how to make the world a better, fairer and safer place, free from poverty and crime, as they should be doing."[/SIZE] JAH


There is no power, control or wealth for these evil followers of the Nicolaitanes doing Gods Will!! Jesus to John in Rev. 2:6 [SIZE=+1]But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes (followers of Santa [Ni]-Claus - Yuletide, Easter [Ishtar - a goddess of fertility - eggs a symbol of fertility] etc.),which I also hate.[/SIZE]


Jesus hates it but these so call Christians love this reveling and idol worship. Satan's cause wins with these fake follower of Christ.[SIZE=+1]


[/SIZE]
Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath NOT planted, shall be rooted up.
[SIZE=+1]15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch (or Pit).[/SIZE]

 

[Rick Otto]

No reason to soft peddle your message, LL!

 

[Kristos]

Buyer Beware.
God's authority has been usurped in the name "Church Authority".
The authority of revealed truth has been illegaly copyrighted & franchised.

How was that difficult to see?

Trust in men has been sold in place of trust in God.

I guess I don't see that when I look at the Church I have come to know. I wonder how our perception could be so different.

 

[Rick Otto]

I guess I don't see that when I look at the Church I have come to know. I wonder how our perception could be so different.

I could suggest some possible ways, but I'm afraid you're not realy seeking a rebuke.

Pr 9:8 - Show Context Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

 

[Kristos]

Then you leave me to speculate.

Although, I attended a RCC parish for almost three years, I have very little knowledge about the RCC. We basically just went there because it was the only english speaking church around. The priest even let us take communion as protestants. I was young, and as soon as we moved, we started going to a protestant church again.

In my mind, the worst abuses of "church authority" in recent memory have come from the Evangelical Right.

Men will always be corrupt. Checks and balances - distribution of authority - help keep everyone on course. Those who remove themselves from the dreaded "hierarchy" will always be at high risk to fall.