"Nicer than God" Grace vs. legalism

[Loki]

Why must Satan be literal? Why not the Id, or temptations of materialism, or anything else that is not literal?

 

[robl]

Why must Satan be literal? Why not the Id, or temptations of materialism, or anything else that is not literal?

Because the enemy of our souls is real. We are engaged in warfare against him. To deny he is real is not to have won the battle, but only to have avoided engaging in it. The problem is, by avoiding the battle and denying the enemy is real, we are short one more soldier. Read Ephesians 6. There are far too many references to satan as a real being in the whole bible to say that he is not literal. If satan is not real, does that mean angels are not real? There were a third of them that went with this mythical, non-literal being to the earth to do nothing more than decieve the human race.

 

[Loki]

Why, may I ask, do you post in _Liberal_ Theology?

We can't even communicate on the same terms. I don't believe souls exist, beyond the psyche, and relabling is just semantics. I don't believe there exists a Satan, Devil, Lucifer, or Angels for that matter. Just because something is referenced many times does not automatically imply it's literal. It could be an extended metaphor.

 

[robl]

I did not realize that I was not supposed to post here. I did not see instructions at the beginning of this area. Most of the places that restrict posts have a notice at the begining. Sorry if I offended you.
In His love,
Rob

 

[PastorFreud]

Because the enemy of our souls is real. We are engaged in warfare against him. To deny he is real is not to have won the battle, but only to have avoided engaging in it. The problem is, by avoiding the battle and denying the enemy is real, we are short one more soldier. Read Ephesians 6. There are far too many references to satan as a real being in the whole bible to say that he is not literal. If satan is not real, does that mean angels are not real? There were a third of them that went with this mythical, non-literal being to the earth to do nothing more than decieve the human race.

I think you have Christianity confused with Star Wars. What you are spouting is mythology, not the teaching of God's Word.

 

[cbk]

I'm glad I didn't bite on this id/Satan business. But, let us draw back to the opening post. Is it possible to be nicer than God? Could the opening poster please address her feelings on the afterlife? Is there one? Is there a judgement? Who will judge? Who will be judged? Please explain to me the picture that you are looking at -- so I can better address your question, since we may not be using the same canvas.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Cbk, here I am *waving*

I'm still around.

In answer to your question, I don't believe in Hell. I am open to the possibility of purgatory, though. I can see God having us relive our sins through the eyes of the people we wronged, perhaps. (I mean, He is all about us learning. We don't exactly learn by burning for all eternity.)

But I've come to an openness to the idea of all being saved because I am now a parent, and I cannot imagine throwing my children away into pain and suffering for eternity no matter what they do.

I think I posted this link before but I will tuck it into this post as well: http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/WhyLiveAGoodLife.html

 

[cbk]

I'm beginning to see your point. You are a mother. But think about it from the father's standpoint for a minute! In course talking during my life in the pigpen, I have heard it said "Mother's baby; Daddy's MAYBE." Kind of funny, I guess. But, there is some truth to it.

You KNOW who is yours, for the child is born of you. But the Father does not have that assurance, lest the child is tested; if you know what I mean.

God (and you may not feel this way), in scripture, is often looked upon as a Father of HIS children. Likewise, from scripture, it is found where Satan ALSO has children. Which child is of Satan and which is of God seems to be the issue with the Bible.

Scripture seems to point that ALL who are begotten of man (who is in sin) are born as the spiritual children of Satan and we are all condemned to die and spend our eternities with our spiritual Father, Satan. But Satan's house is not God's house, therefore, in the end, NO child of Satan will be in God's house. Thus, no child of Satan will enter Heaven... These children will be with their Father, Satan, in Satan's house.

The gospel message teaches us this. But, it teaches us that their IS hope. It teaches us that we can die (and escape being placed in Satan's house) and be begotten of God and be born again as CHILDREN of GOD. There is more, but I will stop here, for you may already know this, or you may lack the interest to discuss along these lines.

However, in the end, I understand the issue from your perspective, for you are a mother who knows WHO is hers. But, I do not believe that God, as a Father, believes that ALL mankind IS HIS. Yet, I do believe that all mankind has the opportunity to BECOME his.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Well, you and I will have to disagree on that in some small respects.

I think He does know us. He knew us in the womb, and He knows us out of it.

He did not design this world as a way to sort out people. He created it so that He would have someone to love and to love Him back. Sin is a conflict that comes between Him and His children and breaks up the intimacy between us. It is like those times when a husband and wife get too busy to spend time together, their intimacy suffers. They may be able to sit in the same room together, but the emotional bond has suffered and their awareness of each other at that level is impaired.

God wants us to be in Him, FEEL His grace and love at all times. But He also knows that we are human, and that we wander off in thought, get focused on something we are doing (sinful or otherwise), that pull us out of conscious awareness of His love. If I am making supper and am not focused on Him I probably do not feel His Grace at that time. Most likely, what I feel is harried. Later, when things are calm again I can tune back in and get in touch with His grace again.

However, making supper does not tempt me to not seek Him again. *l* Therefore, for me it is not a sin. A sin, a temptation, is something that keeps you from seeking Him because it feels good and feels like maybe it can replace Him. (For one thing, at the time sins seem to require less work than living with Him, but they obviously have their downside.)

Reaching out to God is about grounding yourself, recharging yourself. We sleep to recharge our physical selves, we visit with God in order to recharge our spiritual selves.

People who do not know Him, who put things between themselves and Him, are already harming themselves. They have cut themselves off from One who loves them more than life itself. That's already quite a bit of punishment, in my esitmation, so that to throw them away for all eternity for not seeking Him out... well, it just seems petty to me. And I don't believe that God is petty.

What He is is compassion beyond all comprehension. He is there all the time, within us and without. All we have to do is tune Him in and recognize His presence...that warm fuzzy feeling, that moment of Grace, however you experience it, so that you can say "oh, you are God. I know you now too!"

As a parent, there is nothing more thrilling than the first time your baby calls you Mama or Dada... except if you lost that baby but he came back to you. (The Bible speaks on this, of course. )

All people are struggling to find "something" that fits in their hearts, that makes them feel right and safe. That something is God, whether or not they know it or acknowledge it. But He knows it. And He is watching their every step, like any anxious parent who watches their baby stumbling along in a dangerous area. And he is ready to catch them even if they do not yet Know Him. Because he is compassion to the nth degree, and He would not let His baby fall. (Yes, He gives us free will, in the same way parents let go of their child as they walk, but He remains close by to catch us when we need catching.)

 

[cbk]

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts; And in the hidden part thou wilt make me to know wisdom.Psa 51:7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness, That the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, And blot out all mine iniquities.Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me.Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; And take not thy holy Spirit from me.Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; And uphold me with a willing spirit.Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; And sinners shall be converted unto thee.

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Just curious, do you think ALL will enter Heaven?? Although they could have changed in the end, names such as Hiter and Caligula come to mind.. If they did not repent, do you think God in his love will accept them into his home?

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Yes, I do suspect all will enter Heaven. As I said before, I believe in a purgatory where we pay for our sins. Life is not a free ride and there is justice. I just do not believe in an eternal Hell is all.

CBK, you do understand that liberal Christians do not take the Bible to be literal, yes? (And before you start to worry about my view of scripture and whether or not I am picking and choosing what suits me from it, I have to ask how literally do _you_ take it? Do you follow all the codes laid out in the Bible yourself, to the point of not eating pork or shellfish?) http://www.geocities.com/lib_christian_2000/liberal.htm

 

[cbk]

Now, GreenPartyVoter, I am not casting stones. But, my sense of liberal christians is that your views are as various in nature as those of use who 'claim' that we are not liberal in thought. Therefore, for the sake of loving fellowship, I asked these questions to get a better understanding of the ways you feel.

In regards to a purgatory for the Hitlers and cbk's of the world, I would love for such a possibility to be true. I really would.

And, I will not go as far to accuse you of picking and choosing. Now, in regards to me, well, no, I do not follow old laws that are meaningless according to scripture. But, those laws that are scripturally STILL meaningful, yes, I take them seriously.

Now, if I am a picker and chooser because scripture has picked and chosen for me, that which I am to follow and that which I am to reject, then praise God that I too am a liberal, a liberal indeed.

God Bless.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Bless you CBK, for having an interest in listening and not flaming. I wish more Christians, no matter how they view things, felt that way. We need to find fellowship in our similarities, not run away from each other because of our differences.

I think in regards to the Bible, obviously, the issue comes down to how far we go in picking and choosing what is relevant in the Bible for us in these times. And it is hard to decide for sure what is and is not relevant. (Ergo a ban on shellfish, a ban on homosexuality, and other purity laws.)

But this post brings me back to my struggle with legalism. The funny thing is, I am always hearing about "growing in your walk with God" and "having a personal relationship with God" in church, but I've been so hung up on the legalism (gnashing my teeth over those rules and verses I don't like) that I have let it get in the way of trying to make that relationship happen.

I think I'm coming out of my spiritual teenagerhood, not ranting so much at the rules of the great Parent, but trying to get past all that to get to know my Parent. The Bible is not the be-all-end-all of my faith. It's the beginning. It's the map, the guidebook, the arrow. It points the way to God, but it is not God in and of itself. (Yes, yes, inspired word and all that. But still not actually God. I wonder if it's possible to make a Golden Calf of the Word? I surmise yes, seeing how Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and their love for a purity system laden with laws.)

 

[cbk]

And thank you, GreenPartyVoter, for your kindness.

Although I disagree with people, I do not make it a habit to inflame them. Of what purpose would that serve, if not my own?

I agree, we should all grow in God, but, this is done through growth in LOVE for both God and your fellowman. Scripture states this; Christ states this. But, sometimes, this LOVE manifests itself in different ways; ie, acceptance, comfort, even rebuke.

Now, many Christians may feel the need to rebuke you for what they perceive as errors on your behalf. They can rebuke you out of love or anger or even hate, and, sometimes we can not tell their intent. However, as you have probably learned, 99.99% of them will STATE that they do so out of love, but, in the end, it probably isn't no where close to the truth.

You are correct in the fact that you need to know your parent and that the Bible is NOT God and of itself. As such, I am pleased that you use it as a guidebook and arrow pointing to God, and pray that it will continue to enrich you in your (and all mankinds) walk to be closer to God. You may not be as liberal as you think; however, I must jokingly say that your user name makes me think twice!!

Again, in matters of legalism, it is quite simply. Love God and love your neighbors. Find the correct answers to these mix and live it. This is the basis of scripture.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Oho.. don't get me started on the "A vote for a Green is a vote for a Rpub" *lol* (At least, that's what I think your sly wink is implying? *lol*)

As far as folks correcting each other... I still really function from that level of wanting approval, both God's and peoples'. Sometimes more peoples', which is probably not good since what they want from me isn't necessarily what God wants of me. But when those people claim to know what it is God wants, well, it clouds the issue a bit and makes it harder to hear God's voice for myself. Especially when they start flinging scripture at me.

I know, intellectually, that people crave a majority. There is safety in numbers. That's why we have churches, in some ways, and why I am seeking out others like myself online. We long for validation and feel we get it if a large number of others say that the think the same way we do. "Well, 1.5 billion other people can't be wrong." That sort of thing.

Trouble is, that's a false logic. It's the kind of logic that can lull us into justifying things like slavery and war. "Well, everyone else is doing it."

 

[cbk]

As a Republican, I will not reply to your statement on politics. My love for your party expresses itself in my willingness to send it money!

Pleasing both God and the majority is probably an impossibility; Christ Jesus could not accomplish it and he had the power to raise the dead, even. Please God, first and foremost... But, please God in deed, as well as in thoughts and prayers.

Man may not agree because they are wrong, while you are correct.... Or, man may not agree because he is correct and you are wrong... But, then again, man may not agree because both he and you are wrong... And, still again, scripture shows that man may not agree, but in the eyes of God, both could very well be right. Who is correct on any matter? Who knows the truth? God does.... So we must seek him for the answers.

Seek him in prayer.

Seek him in scripture, if he leads you to do so.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Heehee. Geez, all those Dems breathing down my neck about Repub supporters of my party, and it turns out to be true! *l*

You just wait til we get some decent election reform, then you won't have to do that anymore. *l* http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/

But yes, it all comes down to seeking God's wisdom. And it may take decades to figure out what to do. (Ie slavery did not vanish overnight, though many Christians worked hard to get rid of it for a very long time.)

So yes, definitely read the Bible and pray and hope for the best.

 

[cbk]

Seek and you will find.... Vote green and you'll be seen --- be seen crying, that is, on November 2nd.

I usually don't like to jump to conclusions, but, in your case, I guessed you were from the North East!!! And, lo and behold???

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

I'm voting Dem for prez this year, even though it breaks my heart to do so. *siiigh*

I have voted for a repub now and then, though, too. Olympia Snowe, for one.