Nicene Creed

[TScott]

No cant imagine Jesus doing that. He overturned the tables like it says He did.

I think Flandidlyanders made an excellent point and that perhaps you missed it. While many people say that they can find support for the Creed in scripture, what you won't find is support for the Creed in the words and teachings attributed to Jesus. You also won't find the teachings of Jesus in the Creed.

This gets to the heart of the matter, I think.

The Nicene Creed is Dogma. It is about assigning supernatural status to Jesus. In fourth century Rome this was very important. It wasn't enough that Jesus be a great prophet; a great teacher. He had to be in the mold of past gods, a first century Dionysus (Bacchus). He had to be deified. The teachings of Jesus had to take the back seat, while dogma became the driving force of Christianity. The same is true today. You needn't look far for evidence of this, just look at the rules at CF. You can call yourself a Christian if you believe the Nicene Creed. There is no requirement that you follow the teachings of Jesus.

So, while you may be able to find scriptural evidence for the Nicene Creed, you will not find evidence for it in the teachings of Jesus himself.

 

[ahab]

Hi Tscott,

I think Flandidlyanders made an excellent point and that perhaps you missed it. While many people say that they can find support for the Creed in scripture, what you won't find is support for the Creed in the words and teachings attributed to Jesus. You also won't find the teachings of Jesus in the Creed.

I know and you wont find Jesus reading it either. I can miss a point I have noticed.

The Nicene Creed is Dogma.

Well that’s an opinion. It tends to be dogma to those who have a problem with it The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief statements of the Christian Faith.

It is about assigning supernatural status to Jesus. In fourth century Rome this was very important.

I think that’s crucial to know and proclaim that truth, who Jesus was and what He did.

You can call yourself a Christian if you believe the Nicene Creed. There is no requirement that you follow the teachings of Jesus.

I would say that if you don’t believe the Nicene Creed then you wont believe the teachings of Jesus, because this simple basic statement is from the teachings of Jesus

So, while you may be able to find scriptural evidence for the Nicene Creed, you will not find evidence for it in the teachings of Jesus himself.

Yes you will and how!
I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)

Father (Matthew 6: 9)

Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)

Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)

and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)

Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)

begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)

begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)

Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)

true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)

of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)

through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)

Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)

came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)

and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)

and became man. (John 1: 14)

Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)

under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)

He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)

and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)

Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)

And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)

He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)

And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)

to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)

His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)

Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)

the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)

Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)

Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)

Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)

holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)

catholic (Mark 16: 15)

and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)

I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)

And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

Amen. (Psalm 106:48)


peace

 

[TScott]

Well that’s an opinion. It tends to be dogma to those who have a problem with it

An opinion? The word dogma, in this context, means a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritavely proclaimed by a church. Do you disagree that this definition would apply to the Nicene Creed? If so, why?

I would say that if you don’t believe the Nicene Creed then you wont believe the teachings of Jesus, because this simple basic statement is from the teachings of Jesus

I'm sorry but I don't follow this. What simple basic statement are you referring to? The Creed? It is neither simple, nor basic.

Don't get me wrong, if you or two billion other Christians believe the Nicene Creed, I have no desire to disuade any of you in any way. I am only saying that it is the dogma of the Church, and that it in most cases this dogma is seen as more important than the actual teachings of Jesus.

 

[marvmax]

My biggest qualm with it is the way in which it is used. It is used as sort of a litmus test on this forum for who is and who isn't a Christian. I've read enough of the posts here to know that posters can be some of the most arrogant, condescending, rude, hateful, and unChristlike people on a public forum but, as long as they agree with the Nicene Creed, they are considered to be Christians.

That is one of the problems with creeds and doctrinal statements, they seem to support an ideology that says as long as folks give mental assent to certain statements, no change or transformation is necessary. The result? Evangelical Christianity believes IN Jesus but nobody acts LIKE Jesus. How one conducts one's self become secondary to what one believes. Personally, I think Jesus would have a big problem with that ideology.

bloved

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to bloved again.

 

[ahab]

Hi TScott,

An opinion? The word dogma, in this context, means a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritavely proclaimed by a church. Do you disagree that this definition would apply to the Nicene Creed? If so, why?

I believe it is a creed in that it is “A definite summary of what is believed; esp., a summary of the articles of Christian faith; a confession of faith” rather than a dogma “: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof “

I'm sorry but I don't follow this. What simple basic statement are you referring to? The Creed? It is neither simple, nor basic.

You said the creed didn’t contain the teachings of Jesus, well it does doesn’t it? Father (Matthew 6: 9) for a start. Jesus did teach this didn’t he?

Don't get me wrong, if you or two billion other Christians believe the Nicene Creed, I have no desire to disuade any of you in any way. I am only saying that it is the dogma of the Church, and that it in most cases this dogma is seen as more important than the actual teachings of Jesus.

The creed contains the truth of who we have faith in, you I think are referring to truth of what He did and taught. But many people can do some of what he taught without every knowing the truth of who He is. I believe Jesus Himself makes it clear that His followers (Christians) are those who seek to believe in who He is and seek to do what He has taught.
peace

 

[icbal]

but it's not supposed to be a complete statement of belief.

But it is.

The Nicene Creed tells us what we should believe in order for us to be Christians.
If we do not believe then, we are not true Christians.
This is what the Nicene Creed is.

There are Christians out there who see Jesus as God.
There are Christians out there who see Jesus as the actual flesh and blood, literal son of God.
There are Christians out there who see Jesus as a Prophet, and the metaphorical son of God.
And there are Christians who see him as all three.

A council got together 1600 years ago and decided what was a true Christian.
It seems to me that this council was not appointed by God like a Prophet, and it shows in the number of factions in the Church.
Nobody takes any real notice of the Nicene creed, and that renders it useless. Afterall, faith is without doubt, and if you doubt the creed, you dont have faith in it as being true.

I'm sure God intended for people to make their own interpretations of what He relayed through Christ, he gets more believers this way.

The Qur'an works in the same fasion.

I declare the Nicene Creed null and void.

 

[ebia]

But it is.

The Nicene Creed tells us what we should believe in order for us to be Christians.

Say's who? It tells us some things we are supposed to believe, but not all. The stuff that was not controversial at the time didn't need mentioning.

A council got together 1600 years ago and decided what was a true Christian.

No they didn't. They decided that certain things were wrong. And wrote what they decided was the correct understanding of those things into the creed. It is designed to answer certain specific questions that were controversial at the time.

 

[icbal]

They decided that certain things were wrong. And wrote what they decided was the correct understanding of those things into the creed. It is designed to answer certain specific questions that were controversial at the time.

Like whether or not Jesus is God?

Tell us then the things that were wrong, that the Council of Nicea decided it should rectify.

 

[ebia]

Like whether or not Jesus is God?

Tell us then the things that were wrong, that the Council of Nicea decided it should rectify.

Yes. Like whether or not Jesus is God. Which was controversial at the time. What's your point?

 

[icbal]

Yes. Like whether or not Jesus is God. Which was controversial at the time. What's your point?

My point is, its still contraversial.
Its been contraversial for 2000 years.

Noone takes any notice of the Nicene Creed, or have any faith in it. If they did, there wouldn't be the arguments and divide.

The only people who look at the Nicene Creed and decide it must be true, are those people who believe that men of God would do no harm, and are pure, that priests are infalible and always tell you what is true. The same people who refuse to question anything or find anything for themselves.

If 800 million Christians don't adhere to the Nicene Creed, and even a good proportion of the 1.2billion that do, have doubts in it, whats the point in looking to it?
The arguments persist, the controversy remains, and everyone still believes what they believe despite it.

My point is, it didn't do what it was supposed to do.
This is what happens when men decide how everyone should interpret a book that is individual to everyone.

 

[TScott]

The creed contains the truth of who we have faith in, you I think are referring to truth of what He did and taught. But many people can do some of what he taught without every knowing the truth of who He is. I believe Jesus Himself makes it clear that His followers (Christians) are those who seek to believe in who He is and seek to do what He has taught.
peace

This begs a question.
Would the teachings of Jesus be as significant in their application to the human condition had Jesus been "only" a Prophet and teacher?

 

[ahab]

Hi again TScott

This begs a question.
Would the teachings of Jesus be as significant in their application to the human condition had Jesus been "only" a Prophet and teacher?

Thanks for the question my friend.
IMO 'no' , the teachings would not have been as significant'

peace

 

[UberLutheran]

1) It is not the Nicene Creed which saves us, but rather grace received by faith.

2) Stating that we believe in, or accept the Nicene Creed does NOT make us Christian. Christ received in us, by grace through faith, makes us Christian.

So, if someone says they're Christian -- that's good enough for me.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I would say that if you don’t believe the Nicene Creed then you wont believe the teachings of Jesus, because this simple basic statement is from the teachings of Jesus

Jesus told us he'd send his helper, HolySpirit. the Creed misses this out!

Therefore it is still loo-roll.

 

[DailyBlessings]

So, if someone says they're Christian -- that's good enough for me.

That's always been my policy, I don't understand why that isn't good enough for others.

 

[ebia]

My point is, its still contraversial.
Its been contraversial for 2000 years.

Noone takes any notice of the Nicene Creed, or have any faith in it. If they did, there wouldn't be the arguments and divide.

That doesn't follow. Only if everybody did would there cease to be arguments and division (and then only over issues that it answers definitively).

The only people who look at the Nicene Creed and decide it must be true, are those people who believe that men of God would do no harm, and are pure, that priests are infalible and always tell you what is true. The same people who refuse to question anything or find anything for themselves.

A completely untrue assertion about me and about several other people who have said that they believe the Creed to be true, as you would see if you read any of my posts on virtually any other thread.

If 800 million Christians don't adhere to the Nicene Creed,

Have you got evidence that 800 million christians do not adhere to it?

My point is, it didn't do what it was supposed to do.

Yes it does - it answers the questions concerned. It never claimed to force people to accept its answers.

 

[Cleany]

It is designed to answer certain specific questions that were controversial at the time.

exactly

Yes. Like whether or not Jesus is God. Which was controversial at the time. What's your point?

this is still contravercial

1) It is not the Nicene Creed which saves us, but rather grace received by faith.

this is debatable!

 

[ahab]

Hi Flandidlyanders,

Jesus told us he'd send his helper, HolySpirit. the Creed misses this out!
Therefore it is still loo-roll.

Still the teachings of Jesus, just one you want to take note of rather than ones you dont seem to want to acknowldge.

peace

 

[ebia]

this is debatable!

Hopefully the first half of his sentence isn't.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Hi Flandidlyanders,

Still the teachings of Jesus, just one you want to take note of rather than ones you dont seem to want to acknowldge.

peace

I v#never said the rest weren't good... but withou HolYSpirit, they are pointless... worse even, dangerous and unhealthhy.