Nicene Creed Not Totally Supported By Scripture!!!

[Tellastory]

I believe in the Triune God so let's be clear on that, but the Nicene creed is not totally supported by scripture.

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)

​

Really look at that now.

I have no contention with the first reference: John 14:26

The second reference ( Acts 5:3-4 ) doesn't really refer to that,

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

There is no denying the deity of the Holy Spirit, but the title of Lord is still yet to be proven by scripture as belonging to the Holy Spirit.

This one does it "somewhat" better, but not quite the truth to Who is Lord that the Spirit in us would lead us to confess.

2 Corinthians 3:17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

That verse is not saying that the Spirit is Lord, but the Spirit is of the Lord just as that Spirit is of the Father.

There should be no confusion about Who of the Triune God is mentioned here below.

Matthew 22:44The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Philippians 2:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That's what the indwelling Holy Spirit is leading us to confess. Since the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself in glorifying the Son, and we are to bear witness of the Son as the Holy Spirit is, then that will be our confession and no other as it is to the glory of God the Father.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me:.....

So Whom should we be testifying of as Lord to the glory of God the Father? The Son of God, Jesus Christ the Lord.

The reference to the Holy Spirit being the Giver of Life is way off as well. The reference of Genesis 1:2 used to validate that is in error.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

That verse says nothing about the Spirit being the Giver of life. NOTHING.

The Son of God is the Giver of Life.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

All Bibles testify to that. There is no ifs, buts, nor contentions about that.

But because of errant modern Bible translations, we do have opposing verses which is not found in the KJV nor in all modern Bibles.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. KJV

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. NIV

More irritating changes in His words are found here.

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. NIV

But yet the truth is maintained here below to keep all scripture in line and in agreement with each other because scripture cannot go against scripture.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. KJV

There are a few more modern Bibles that keeps to the KJV renderings of those references, but in those few modern Bibles, there are a few references eslewhere deviating from the message as kept in the KJV, but that is another topic.

Needless to say, I'm going with what all Bibles says as to Who that Giver of Life is in John 6:33-35, and not what the Nicene Creed says nor what most of those errant Bible versions says, but what the KJV says.

The Spirit is life.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Makes sense as Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Ghost and thus is giving us life.

Next is "Who proceeds from the Father" ( John 15:26 ) no problem there.

Who with the Father & the Son together is worshipped & glorified.

That part of the Nicene creed is not seen by that reference below at all.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

That is the Father & the Spirit testifying that Jesus is God in glorifying the Son as God.

That is hardly a reference for worshipping & glorifying the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. There is no clear reference citing believers to do that at all, but there are references why this practise is an iniquity.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7733698/

Read the OP and the second post in that thread at that link as it is placed in Unorthodox Theology as for why scripture reproves that in the Nicene creed because we are led by the Spirit of God to glorify the Son as God in worship just as the Father & the Spirit did at His water baptism.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

May God open the eyes of His bride as to why the Son is called the Bridegroom as He is to be our first love in worship, in fellowship, and in prayer as it is by the Son, we honour & glorify the Father as well.

John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

There is no other way to come to God the Father in worship of Him other than by way of the Son. That's scripture, and not just for eternal life.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

As it is, the Nicene Creed is not totally supported by scripture.

They cannot prove all of it by the scripture listed to it which is why debating the Nicene creed is in Unorthodox Theology.

No one has been able to prove the Nicene creed totally by the scripture.

Scripture reproves the Nicene creed as going against scripture.

One should be careful when using an errant modern Bible let alone a creed that decline from the testimony of the Son Whom the Spirit would lead us to confess as being Lord and the Giver of life to the glory of God the Father as the Father is not glorified any other way than by glorifying the Son.

Psalm 119:157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies. 158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Good observations.

 

[Soulgazer]

I don't limit God to three.

Doth not Sophia (Wisdom) cry? and understanding put forth Her voice? She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
"Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
<>

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:"

 

[hedrick]

I agree that the NT uses Lord for Christ. But I'm not sure you should expect Biblical precedent for every word. Lord can be taken in a broader sense as ruler over. I think you can make a case that the Holy Spirit is the ruler of life. The Trinity is, of course, one God, so the titles don't have to be exclusive. I.e. the fact that Christ is primarily called Lord doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit can't be in some ways.

"Who with the Father & the Son together is worshipped & glorified." I think this is simply part of saying that the Holy Spirit is God. I don't think we need to worship the Holy Spirit separately, but that he is included when we worship God. That's not to say that it's wrong to worship the Holy Spirit separately, I just don't think we need to find Bible passages that explicitly support this, as long as you accept that the Holy Spirit is God, and is included when we worship God.

 

[Tellastory]

I don't limit God to three.

Doth not Sophia (Wisdom) cry? and understanding put forth Her voice? She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
"Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
<>

What Bible version are you using?

Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, KJV

Wisdom is being referred in an allegorical form and not literal.

Because of that and this verse below, you really should limit God to three.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. KJV

 

[Tellastory]

I agree that the NT uses Lord for Christ. But I'm not sure you should expect Biblical precedent for every word. Lord can be taken in a broader sense as ruler over. I think you can make a case that the Holy Spirit is the ruler of life. The Trinity is, of course, one God, so the titles don't have to be exclusive. I.e. the fact that Christ is primarily called Lord doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit can't be in some ways.

"Who with the Father & the Son together is worshipped & glorified." I think this is simply part of saying that the Holy Spirit is God. I don't think we need to worship the Holy Spirit separately, but that he is included when we worship God. That's not to say that it's wrong to worship the Holy Spirit separately, I just don't think we need to find Bible passages that explicitly support this, as long as you accept that the Holy Spirit is God, and is included when we worship God.

There is a witness factor when it comes to worshipping God by ourselves individually as we must do so in spirit & in truth.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

How can our worship of God the Father through the Son be true if by only our singular witness in worship of Him?

Therefore as we are led by the Spirit of God in worshipping Him, we would be sharing the same testimony of the Son of God in worship.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Since this is the role of the Holy Spirit as dwelling within us in leading us what to say as we are led by the Spirit of the Father to say:

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Then we shall be led by the Spirit of God to not speak of Himself, the Holy Spirit, but of the Son, in seeking His glory in worship.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me:

Which brings home the judgment in verse 22 below that there is only one way to honour the Father at all and that is through the Son.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

That means any believer stops honouring the Son, they are no longer honouring the Father that sent Him as God as God is glorified in the Son.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Paul said that about fellowship with God:

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Paul said that because by knowing the Son, we are getting to know the Father because Jesus meant what He has said that He is the only way to God the Father in relating to Him as God sent Him to be the way for us in approaching God by way of the Son in being submissive to Him in all things.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

That is the mind of Christ that the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to have when it comes to worship as the name of the Son is above every other name.

Philippians 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In spite of scripture, it seems churches have allowed an ecumenical creed to endorse a practise that is ignoring the will of the Father in how we are to come in worship of Him in honouring & glorifying Him by way of the Son in honouring & glorifying the Son. The Father receives this honour & glory by no other way.

 

[Phantasman]

Comparing the "scriptures" as we know them, from reading them, how is truth revealed? If the Holy Spirit speaks to men, and they write it down, are not the very words open to reinterpretation and changing at that moment? To have faith that man makes the truth available is mute to me. The Spirit of Truth knows and makes truth appear, even out of lies.

When one prays for truth, will God give them a stone? So how do we know truth? We open our mind to it. If someone believes truth is the Bible, that is their truth. If someone believes that their church preaches truth, then that is their truth as well. If we accept what we are told is truth, is it our truth?

Truth is a spirit. And it is everywhere and in everything. We need to seek it in all things as well. Because it doesn't reside in one place waiting to be found. But in many wanting to be complete.

 

[Tellastory]

Comparing the "scriptures" as we know them, from reading them, how is truth revealed? If the Holy Spirit speaks to men, and they write it down, are not the very words open to reinterpretation and changing at that moment? To have faith that man makes the truth available is mute to me. The Spirit of Truth knows and makes truth appear, even out of lies.

When one prays for truth, will God give them a stone? So how do we know truth? We open our mind to it. If someone believes truth is the Bible, that is their truth. If someone believes that their church preaches truth, then that is their truth as well. If we accept what we are told is truth, is it our truth?

Truth is a spirit. And it is everywhere and in everything. We need to seek it in all things as well. Because it doesn't reside in one place waiting to be found. But in many wanting to be complete.

How can we definitely know the truth? Trust Jesus to be your Good Shepherd at that throne of grace to guide you thru the Spirit in you.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.....26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Phantasman]

How can we definitely know the truth? Trust Jesus to be your Good Shepherd at that throne of grace to guide you thru the Spirit in you.

I agree.

"That is the gospel of him whom they seek, which he has revealed to the perfect through the mercies of the Father as the hidden mystery, Jesus the Christ. Through him he enlightened those who were in darkness because of forgetfulness. He enlightened them and gave them a path. And that path is the truth which he taught them. For this reason error was angry with him, so it persecuted him. It was distressed by him, so it made him powerless. He was nailed to a cross. He became a fruit of the knowledge of the Father. He did not, however, destroy them because they ate of it. He rather caused those who ate of it to be joyful because of this discovery."- Gospel of Truth

 

[Soulgazer]

Wisdom is being referred in an allegorical form and not literal.

Because of that and this verse below, you really should limit God to three.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. KJV

The whole bible is allagorical, or the whole bible is literal, or parts of it are allagorical, or parts of it are literal. I've heard them all.

The Bible is pantheistic, speaking of differing aspects of the Monad. If Sophia is allagorical, then the Holy Spirit is allagorical, or if literal then the other is literal. Perhaps Sophia is literal, and the Holy Spirit allagorical, or perhaps Sophia is the Holy Spirit.

The second century epistles of John tell us what the author(s) believed, and the post trinity era interpolition of "father, son and Holy Ghost" speak to a later era... More decievers, attempting to impose "official"doctrine on the community of believers.

The only way this "trinity" question can be honestly solved is to have them all line up in front of us so we can count. The rest is just "belief" and it is called "belief" because it is not "knowing".

Until such time as "knowing" comes about, I prefer not to blaspheme the holy Spirit by placing numerical or other limitations on the Godhead. You may do as you please.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

I prefer the Apostle's Creed.

 

[rEACHout4all]

I believe in the Triune God so let's be clear on that, but the Nicene creed is not totally supported by scripture.

Triadic gods started in Egypt. The story of Jesus is like Horus's story.

Your thread has invoked more than three gods.

The creeds are arrogant as those who made them are proclaiming that they know something.
Someone says they know, but they actually don't know.

I view creeds as dividing lines and spiritual barriers.

I do agree that the creeds are not biblical.

 

[Tellastory]

I do agree that the creeds are not biblical.

Every believer should go before that throne of grace for wisdom and help from the Good Shepherd in making sure everything they believe is Biblical also. By leading by example in proving everything by the scripture, one can hope it will lead others to do the same instead of just following the crowd and letting the educated appointed leaders do the work for them.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

Triadic gods started in Egypt. The story of Jesus is like Horus's story.

Your thread has invoked more than three gods.

The creeds are arrogant as those who made them are proclaiming that they know something.
Someone says they know, but they actually don't know.

I view creeds as dividing lines and spiritual barriers.

I do agree that the creeds are not biblical.

This post is a good example of why we need creeds.

 

[Tellastory]

I prefer the Apostle's Creed.

Why call a creed that which the Apostles never used?

 

[Tellastory]

This post is a good example of why we need creeds.

Actually, this is an example as to why His disciples should be teaching other believers to be His disciples by continuing in His words. Teaching creeds will hardly do them justice and obviously serving as a modern day cliff's notes in getting out of learning of Him through His words, and allowing His disciples to slack in their jobs of teaching other believers.

Thus why churches are slacking in discipleship in the word as they settle for patented sermons and Sunday school lessons, leaving no times for questions by believers that need a specfic growth in their walk with Him.

John 8: 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free....36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

As the world, the public educational system, and the media are giving misinformation and lies every day and throughout the week, those not rooted in the word will be offended because of the word, and walk away.

Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

As church memberships are dwindlings, obviously the creeds are poor substitutes for continuing in His words.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

A creed is just a brief summary of Christian belief...get over it.

 

[Albion]

Why call a creed that which the Apostles never used?

Honestly, it looks like you have turned serious matters into an exercise in nitpicking ordinary words. Catholic. Apostles. Lord.

I can't get into the reasoning behind running from major truths of Christianity because of how someone worded ideas that are otherwise quite true.

 

[Tellastory]

Honestly, it looks like you have turned serious matters into an exercise in nitpicking ordinary words. Catholic. Apostles. Lord.

I can't get into the reasoning behind running from major truths of Christianity because of how someone worded ideas that are otherwise quite true.

But not everything taught in the Nicene creed is true as to be supported by scripture and in fact, scripture reproves such practise of the Holy Spirit to be worshipped with the Father & the Son because the Spirit would not lead a believer to do that but to glorify the Son.

The thing that every believer is glossing over is how when calling directly on the Holy Spirit in worship that it is the devil that responds with signs and lying wonders in these movements of the "Spirit".

As much as some believers recognize that worshipping the Holy Spirit exculsively is wrong, yet fail to see God would allow a strong delusion to occur unless Jesus wasa prophesizing that this was the iniquity by which many houses were going to fall as denomenational churches did when holy laughter movement went nationwide and denomenational wise in 1994.

So until you discern with His help what that broadening of the way is in His prophesy on how bad churches will be befire His return, maybe all churches should take pause and resort to the word more instead to avoid all appearance of evil of that which broadens the way as prophesied.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7736199/

 

[Albion]

But not everything taught in the Nicene creed is true as to be supported by scripture and in fact

My point is that it doesn't appear to by UNtrue, either. You are just agitated about the choice of perfectly acceptable words used in the Creed.