If you start with a wrong idea of God it’s extremely hard to get to the correct conclusion of what God has given us in scripture.

[Jeff Saunders]

Aion and aionios are irrelevant because there are numerous passages that refute universalism that don’t use either of those words. “Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God” “but woe to the man who betrays the Son of Man for it would be better for him if he had never been born” “he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven” “do not fear those who are able to kill the body but fear Him who is able to kill both soul and body in hell” “this is the second death, the lake of fire and anyone who’s name was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire”, not to mention all of the passages that say that people who are immoral, impure, wicked, idolators, will not enter the kingdom of God.

God desires a lot of things that He doesn’t get. As you yourself already pointed out He didn’t want to kill everyone in the flood, but He didn’t it anyway, didn’t He? He didn’t want everyone to sin, but literally everyone except God did. He didn’t want the Jews to worship idols. I mean I can sit here all night listing all the things God didn’t want to happen that did happen, one thing the scriptures have taught us consistently from Genesis to Revelation is that man has constantly been a disappointment to God. So that argument that God desires all men to be saved and that none should perish doesn’t negate the passages of scripture that I’ve quoted above that specifically state that not everyone will be forgiven and enter heaven.

Aion and Aionios are not irrelevant at all they are the key to understanding Gods plan to reconcile all his creation to himself 2Cor 5:19 . Even if you use the mistranslation of the English translation of scripture you have to admit that there are scriptures if taken as plainly written that seem to be conflicting . When that happens how do you decide which one trumps the other? Most of Christianity has made eternal hell their foundation and any scripture that talked about God reconciling all to himself are explained away or words are added to fit the translation. I for one start with the telos of God 1Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all , then I work backwards from there . The text that confirms this are my foundation and those scriptures that seem to be in conflict are lesser, but that’s not necessary if one understands Aion/Aionios . I am sorry that the God you follow doesn’t get what he desires, my God does Psalm 86:10 all my desires shall I do. Psalm135:6 All that Yahweh delights he does , Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen.

 

[Der Alte]

Not if you translate the Greek properly. If you translate Aion as age and Aionios as pertaining to the age , or of the age. Most of the Supposedly contradictory verses fit quite well with the story of scripture, if translated correctly. Here are some examples- ****

"aionios" is an adjective it cannot be legitimately translated "pertaining to the age , or of the age" "age" is a noun. How is it this one adjective requires 3-4 words to translate into English?
Here is the definition of aionios from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich one of if not the most distinguished Greek lexicons available.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352). ① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10). ② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57). ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. ἀκαθαρσία, ας, ἡ (Hippo​

​

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33–34.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"aionios" is an adjective it cannot be legitimately translated "pertaining to the age , or of the age" "age" is a noun. How is it this one adjective requires 3-4 words to translate inot ENglish.
Here is the definition of aionios from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich one of if not the most distinguished Greek lexicons available.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352). ① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10). ② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57). ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. ἀκαθαρσία, ας, ἡ (Hippo​

​

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33–34.​

Just because you cut and paste this same thing over and over it doesn’t make it correct. If you would take the time to read books that tell of why those of that believe in Christian Universal Redemption and why we believe what we believe and what we really believe it would go along way for your argument. You show your ignorance of what we believe because you have never studied what we believe and why we do. (staff edited)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Aion and Aionios are not irrelevant at all they are the key to understanding Gods plan to reconcile all his creation to himself 2Cor 5:19 . Even if you use the mistranslation of the English translation of scripture you have to admit that there are scriptures if taken as plainly written that seem to be conflicting . When that happens how do you decide which one trumps the other? Most of Christianity has made eternal hell their foundation and any scripture that talked about God reconciling all to himself are explained away or words are added to fit the translation. I for one start with the telos of God 1Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all , then I work backwards from there . The text that confirms this are my foundation and those scriptures that seem to be in conflict are lesser, but that’s not necessary if one understands Aion/Aionios . I am sorry that the God you follow doesn’t get what he desires, my God does Psalm 86:10 all my desires shall I do. Psalm135:6 All that Yahweh delights he does , Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen.

You didn’t address a single passage I quoted, The only thing aionios has to do with the discussion is the question of whether or not the punishment is eternal in the lake of fire. You still have the death of the soul to deal with.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just because you cut and paste this same thing over and over it doesn’t make it correct. If you would take the time to read books that tell of why those of that believe in Christian Universal Redemption and why we believe what we believe and what we really believe it would go along way for your argument. You show your ignorance of what we believe because you have never studied what we believe and why we do. Until you humble yourself and admit that you are arguing about that which you refuse to study , your argument has no merit.

Why do we need to read a bunch of heretical books to know what universalists believe when we’ve been debating this topic with universalists here in CF for several years?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Aion and Aionios are not irrelevant at all they are the key to understanding Gods plan to reconcile all his creation to himself 2Cor 5:19 . Even if you use the mistranslation of the English translation of scripture you have to admit that there are scriptures if taken as plainly written that seem to be conflicting . When that happens how do you decide which one trumps the other? Most of Christianity has made eternal hell their foundation and any scripture that talked about God reconciling all to himself are explained away or words are added to fit the translation. I for one start with the telos of God 1Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all , then I work backwards from there . The text that confirms this are my foundation and those scriptures that seem to be in conflict are lesser, but that’s not necessary if one understands Aion/Aionios . I am sorry that the God you follow doesn’t get what he desires, my God does Psalm 86:10 all my desires shall I do. Psalm135:6 All that Yahweh delights he does , Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen.

“Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul said that God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself. He didn’t say that everyone would be reconciled in Christ. Everyone who is IN CHRIST will be reconciled to God, not everyone who IS NOT IN CHRIST.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Aion and Aionios are not irrelevant at all they are the key to understanding Gods plan to reconcile all his creation to himself 2Cor 5:19 . Even if you use the mistranslation of the English translation of scripture you have to admit that there are scriptures if taken as plainly written that seem to be conflicting . When that happens how do you decide which one trumps the other? Most of Christianity has made eternal hell their foundation and any scripture that talked about God reconciling all to himself are explained away or words are added to fit the translation. I for one start with the telos of God 1Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all , then I work backwards from there . The text that confirms this are my foundation and those scriptures that seem to be in conflict are lesser, but that’s not necessary if one understands Aion/Aionios . I am sorry that the God you follow doesn’t get what he desires, my God does Psalm 86:10 all my desires shall I do. Psalm135:6 All that Yahweh delights he does , Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen.

“When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yeah when Satan, death, and all the wicked have been destroyed in the lake of fire all things will be in subjection to Him.

 

[Der Alte]

Give me your opinion why would Matthew use two different words for world in one letter?

Hyperbole or figurative. E.g. Peter was not literally Satan when Jesus called him that. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. The sons of John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. But as I have shown the words aion and aionios are never defined in the text as age or ages, of the age, pertaining to the age. etc. But they are defined in the text as aion/eternity, aionios/eternal.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Aion and Aionios are not irrelevant at all they are the key to understanding Gods plan to reconcile all his creation to himself 2Cor 5:19 . Even if you use the mistranslation of the English translation of scripture you have to admit that there are scriptures if taken as plainly written that seem to be conflicting . When that happens how do you decide which one trumps the other? Most of Christianity has made eternal hell their foundation and any scripture that talked about God reconciling all to himself are explained away or words are added to fit the translation. I for one start with the telos of God 1Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all , then I work backwards from there . The text that confirms this are my foundation and those scriptures that seem to be in conflict are lesser, but that’s not necessary if one understands Aion/Aionios . I am sorry that the God you follow doesn’t get what he desires, my God does Psalm 86:10 all my desires shall I do. Psalm135:6 All that Yahweh delights he does , Isa 14:24 Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen.

“Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭135‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB

“The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, “Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭14‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yep and according to the scriptures anyone who does not abide in Christ and endure to the end will be thrown into the lake of fire. That’s what God pleases, that’s His plan, revealed to us over and over in scripture. Those are His rules, that’s why it’s called a covenant.

 

[JulieB67]

I for one start with the telos of God 1Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all , then I work backwards from there

That's your entire problem right there. You take one verse causing you to lose the rest of the Word's entire context. You can't build an entire belief system about our Father, his overall plan, etc from one verse.

If we go up two verses we get the timeline of when God will be in all

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This happens at Judgement Day when everyone that's not found in the book of "life" will be thrown in. Death and hell are both thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second Death. Afterwards then God will be in all. Nothing offensive will be left. We have to rightly divide the Word -chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We are instructed to do so. We can't just pull up one verse and work backwards. We then lose context of what's actually being stated.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Der Alte:
aionios" is an adjective it cannot be legitimately translated "pertaining to the age , or of the age" "age" is a noun. How is it this one adjective requires 3-4 words to translate into English?

ADJECTIVE-Nominative, Singular, Feminine ⓘ
- Greek -
Strongs nt:2315
θεόπνευστος {theh-op'-nyoo-stos}

• θεόπνευστος from θεός and a presumed derivative of πνέω; divinely breathed in: given by inspiration of God.

Because sometimes it is necessary if you want to be faithful to the Scripture. Your personal pet peeve about using more than one word is simply that; your personal pet peeve.

How does the EOB translate the above?

Note: It can be done, as seen below in the NKJV, but do you think this carries the full idea/weight of the word? I don’t …

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,”
‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness | New King James Version (NKJV) | Download The Bible App Now

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

bible.com

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You didn’t address a single passage I quoted, The only thing aionios has to do with the discussion is the question of whether or not the punishment is eternal in the lake of fire. You still have the death of the soul to deal with.

What is the soul that’s really the question. This is my opinion on the soul . I believe we are triune beings, we have a moral body, a soul, and a spirit. We all know we have a mortal body that’s obvious, the soul to me is what we have made of ourselves while in this mortal body. Jesus says to save your soul you must lose it, die to self and live for him. So it sounds like to me that we have the ability to deny ourselves and follow Jesus the best we can with the knowledge we have. The opposite of that is to live for yourself, pursue worldly desires, and just do whatever you think you want and need, Each of us builds something, either die to self and build the kingdom or live for self and build your own kingdom. This is something we have free will to do all by ourselves. This is who we have become, are we Hitler or Mother Teresa . The Spirit is who we are from God that’s us that’s who we are as God created us, this is the part that has no end. We know the mortal body dies and all will get new never ending bodies. Scripture tells us that those who did not follow Jesus while in the mortal body, these go into “Lake of Fire” what scripture calls the second death. As followers of Jesus we do not lose our souls, we just keep going , we are tried by fire and all our works will be judged, wood or hay or stubble will be burned, gold or silver or precious stones survive. We just keep going. Those who go to the second death , death of the soul, lose all they have made they give up everything. I see it like in a video game when the character dies and loses all the stuff they collected but go back to the beginning and start over with nothing. I believe God has given us examples of what it’s like , if someone has total amnesia they can still talk and think and function but their memory is gone , it’s like starting over. This is what I believe those who go into Gods refinery called the Lake of Fire, all that is not of God that has caused them to be there is destroyed, stripped away, and one that is done and there is nothing left between them and God , they will be truly free to choose God and they will, we know because scripture says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Then 1Cor 15:28 will be complete and God will be all in all, Gods telos. Then New Heaven and New earth, Gods creation is complete he has what he set out to do have a creation that fully follows him out of free will , it’s a long process many thousands of years so far. I will give you my hypothesis of what happens to those who go through the Lake of Fire. I think that if Revelation , when talking about the New Earth and Jerusalem coming down, is literally what’s going to happen, then those outside the gates that can’t go in because they don’t have Gods mark on them , they live on the New Earth and do not become citizens of heaven but they are citizens of the New Earth. I believe they have bodies like Adam before the fall but earthly bodies not glorified bodies like those who followed Jesus, who are part of Gods family and joined heirs with Christ. This last part is opinion only not a hill to die on. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Why do we need to read a bunch of heretical books to know what universalists believe when we’ve been debating this topic with universalists here in CF for several years?

Because how can you counter some one who you think are wrong if you don’t know what or why they believe what they do. Most of those that I see on this forum have preconceived ideas of what we believe, but your arguments show a lack of understanding of what you are talking about. That is why you read what others think. For example I am totally against Calvinist beliefs, so I have read and listened to a lot of the teachings to see what and why they believe what they do , only then can I make an informed argument when discussing their views.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

“Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul said that God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself. He didn’t say that everyone would be reconciled in Christ. Everyone who is IN CHRIST will be reconciled to God, not everyone who IS NOT IN CHRIST.

So you think that either God is too weak to get the job done or man’s will is greater than the God who created him ? God will reconcile all to himself, he will not fail , just as Jesus will not fail he is the savior of the world, not a potential savior.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Der Alte:
aionios" is an adjective it cannot be legitimately translated "pertaining to the age , or of the age" "age" is a noun. How is it this one adjective requires 3-4 words to translate into English?

ADJECTIVE-Nominative, Singular, Feminine ⓘ
- Greek -
Strongs nt:2315
θεόπνευστος {theh-op'-nyoo-stos}

• θεόπνευστος from θεός and a presumed derivative of πνέω; divinely breathed in: given by inspiration of God.

Because sometimes it is necessary if you want to be faithful to the Scripture. Your personal pet peeve about using more than one word is simply that; your personal pet peeve.

How does the EOB translate the above?

Note: It can be done, as seen below in the NKJV, but do you think this carries the full idea/weight of the word? I don’t …

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,”
‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness | New King James Version (NKJV) | Download The Bible App Now

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

bible.com

I lived in Hawaii for 3 years and there are words in Hawaiian , one word, that takes a whole sentence in English to describe. Eternal hell is the bedrock that can’t be challenged or the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

“Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭135‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB

“The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, “Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭14‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yep and according to the scriptures anyone who does not abide in Christ and endure to the end will be thrown into the lake of fire. That’s what God pleases, that’s His plan, revealed to us over and over in scripture. Those are His rules, that’s why it’s called a covenant.

I agree 100 % but is the Lake of Fire a refinery or an eternal torcher chamber ? That’s the question and we differ on that.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I lived in Hawaii for 3 years and there are words in Hawaiian , one word, that takes a whole sentence in English to describe. Eternal hell is the bedrock that can’t be challenged or the whole house of cards comes

The concept of hell is built on a beach and is easily washed away if one looks at it honestly!

 

[Jeff Saunders]

That's your entire problem right there. You take one verse causing you to lose the rest of the Word's entire context. You can't build an entire belief system about our Father, his overall plan, etc from one verse.

If we go up two verses we get the timeline of when God will be in all

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This happens at Judgement Day when everyone that's not found in the book of "life" will be thrown in. Death and hell are both thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second Death. Afterwards then God will be in all. Nothing offensive will be left. We have to rightly divide the Word -chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We are instructed to do so. We can't just pull up one verse and work backwards. We then lose context of what's actually being stated.

You have a different perspective than I do . I see the things being destroyed as those things that are contrary to Jesus. God loves his creation ( John 3:16 for God so loved the cosmos) Death will be destroyed, not carry on for all eternity. So the things being destroyed is not people but that which is not of God , that’s what is destroyed. It’s like this , take Hitler for example, if Hitler has all that made him an evil man destroyed he would not be the same Hitler that killed all those people. Like Paul said he died to Christ but nevertheless he lives, as a new person in Christ, the old is gone , dead, and he is a new creation. That’s Gods plan for all his creation, it’s all over the New Testament. You believe God created most of his creation for destruction, I see it differently God knows the beginning from the end , he would never create something he knows he would have to torture forever, constantly maintaining them and keeping the fire burning for ever and having to listen to the screams for all eternity and he will live in grief and misery for all eternity. I just don’t see that in the God of Love , life , and light in whom there is no darkness.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

That's your entire problem right there. You take one verse causing you to lose the rest of the Word's entire context. You can't build an entire belief system about our Father, his overall plan, etc from one verse.

If we go up two verses we get the timeline of when God will be in all

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This happens at Judgement Day when everyone that's not found in the book of "life" will be thrown in. Death and hell are both thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second Death. Afterwards then God will be in all. Nothing offensive will be left. We have to rightly divide the Word -chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We are instructed to do so. We can't just pull up one verse and work backwards. We then lose context of what's actually being stated.

Do you understand what is meant by telos? I don’t think you do, your statement that “ I take one word and lose the rest of the words context” I am no Greek expert, but I can and have looked up words and listened to the “experts “ on what that Greek words mean. I Have been taught that telos is what the end of the story is, or what Gods plan is the end of the story. And 1Cor 15:28 God being all in all is the telos the end of the story. Any ending that does not have this ending is off or not correct. So yes you can get the end of the story first and work backwards from there. Do a study of telos and see if you come up with something different.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What is the soul that’s really the question. This is my opinion on the soul . I believe we are triune beings, we have a moral body, a soul, and a spirit. We all know we have a mortal body that’s obvious, the soul to me is what we have made of ourselves while in this mortal body. Jesus says to save your soul you must lose it, die to self and live for him. So it sounds like to me that we have the ability to deny ourselves and follow Jesus the best we can with the knowledge we have. The opposite of that is to live for yourself, pursue worldly desires, and just do whatever you think you want and need, Each of us builds something, either die to self and build the kingdom or live for self and build your own kingdom. This is something we have free will to do all by ourselves. This is who we have become, are we Hitler or Mother Teresa . The Spirit is who we are from God that’s us that’s who we are as God created us, this is the part that has no end. We know the mortal body dies and all will get new never ending bodies. Scripture tells us that those who did not follow Jesus while in the mortal body, these go into “Lake of Fire” what scripture calls the second death. As followers of Jesus we do not lose our souls, we just keep going , we are tried by fire and all our works will be judged, wood or hay or stubble will be burned, gold or silver or precious stones survive. We just keep going. Those who go to the second death , death of the soul, lose all they have made they give up everything. I see it like in a video game when the character dies and loses all the stuff they collected but go back to the beginning and start over with nothing. I believe God has given us examples of what it’s like , if someone has total amnesia they can still talk and think and function but their memory is gone , it’s like starting over. This is what I believe those who go into Gods refinery called the Lake of Fire, all that is not of God that has caused them to be there is destroyed, stripped away, and one that is done and there is nothing left between them and God , they will be truly free to choose God and they will, we know because scripture says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Then 1Cor 15:28 will be complete and God will be all in all, Gods telos. Then New Heaven and New earth, Gods creation is complete he has what he set out to do have a creation that fully follows him out of free will , it’s a long process many thousands of years so far. I will give you my hypothesis of what happens to those who go through the Lake of Fire. I think that if Revelation , when talking about the New Earth and Jerusalem coming down, is literally what’s going to happen, then those outside the gates that can’t go in because they don’t have Gods mark on them , they live on the New Earth and do not become citizens of heaven but they are citizens of the New Earth. I believe they have bodies like Adam before the fall but earthly bodies not glorified bodies like those who followed Jesus, who are part of Gods family and joined heirs with Christ. This last part is opinion only not a hill to die on. I hope this makes sense.

Those outside the kingdom won’t have access to the river of life or the tree of life.