Nice guy synodrome?

[RadG]

I'm on vacation and a little bored so I decided to go on the Internet and read up on what the secular world has to say about attracting the opposite sex (yeah, I know, but bear with me for just a minute!) The consensus from DeAngelo's "Double your Dating" video series (only saw day one of three) and the other PDFs I read is that to get a woman interested in you is to be "cocky and funny" and not to be a nice guy. You are suppose to not tell them you are interested in them and you are to keep them at a distance so they keep wanting "more". DeAngelo recommends finding a flaw in the woman and then tell her about her flaw so you can communicate with her on a different level (yeah, OK). Of course, he goes into a 45 minute discussion on how Charlie Darwin's evolution theory created all of these reactions in the animal kingdom and eventually us (which I promptly skipped over).

snip...

Cain never had this problem, lucky guy.

And people wonder why the divorce rate is so high. I feel that way sometime, but that is why I look to find a good Christian woman who doesn't go for the games and jerks that the world says that we need to be. If you think about it even if you die single yet are a nice Christian guy you will never really finish last, always remember Romans 12:2

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Also Cain still had to search, God woke Adam up and said "Here ya go."

 

[OhhJim]

As you talk to women, however, they always seem to be with the bad boys or people who treat them like dirt. Very puzzling.

I don't find it puzzling at all, actually. I've done a fair amount of reading on the subject, and I think I understand some of the socialogical reasons why (some) women do it. One reason (just ONE, mind you) is that she wants to irritate or "get back at" her parents/ex-bf/ex-husband/someone else. But there are other reasons, some of them quite logical. I don't pretend to know them all.

 

[TriptychR]

If I'm not mistaken, it's been five pages into a "nice guy" thread and no one has yet recommended reading the book "Wild at Heart." That has to be a record!

 

[Wheezy]

Funny you should mention 'Wild at Heart'. I work at a library and just checked it out to a friend of mine yesterday. I read the byline as it went by, but didn't see much else; what's it about?

Fight on -- Wheezy

 

[boilerblues]

If I'm not mistaken, it's been five pages into a "nice guy" thread and no one has yet recommended reading the book "Wild at Heart." That has to be a record!

While I think John Eldrige writes some very good stuff, and some of it very much needed and impacted me in a great way, not all of his stuff he writes is Biblical. I think he tends to take the machismo a bit too far. I recommend his books, but I also give the warning to make sure to test everything against Scripture.

 

[iwillxa100]

you guys like to read a lot,

unfortanately, reading is one of those things that I'm not very fond of.

 

[boilerblues]

Reading your Bible every day is vital. Beyond that I know that some people are more likely to read than others, some people just have a hard time reading. I've found that it's a vital part of me growing in my faith, I always have to be reading something. I'm a contemplative and a book worm. I started reading novels in 5th grade (or earlier) and I still love to read. My biggest challenge to that is time. But it's something that if you can do it, it's very beneficial.

 

[the_man]

If I'm not mistaken, it's been five pages into a "nice guy" thread and no one has yet recommended reading the book "Wild at Heart." That has to be a record!

There are some people on this board that detest the book with a passion (some having not read it) and there are others that like it and embrace its message with a passion. In the past it has caused bitter debates about it. For some reason, as soon as you mention WAH, it becomes a sore subject.

It's okay to take some of the wisdom that the book points out, just don't mention the book.

 

[Fatolia]

uh oh... FLAMEBAIT!!!

 

[Breetai]

We should define terms here. If 'nice' is to mean wimpy, then I would imagine this is a turn off for women. No woman wants a man that is so nice, he refuses to stand up for himself, refuses to offend people (that should be rightly offended by truth), that has no back bone. But if by 'nice' we mean he is kindhearted when he should be and fierce when he needs to be, then I would imagine that women are more attracted to this.

Christ wasn't a nice guy. No one hates or wants to kill nice guys. Jesus was kind and loving to those that needed it and was fierce and relentless with those that deserved it.

'The Man' is on to something here.

 

[Chino]

I've actually watched the entire video series, and I have a lot of compatible views with Deangelo and some incompatible views (evolution). What he's saying isn't really to make women like you by making fun of her. But it's communicating that you're treating her as equal to you. He also means to do it in a fun way, not the way a jerk would do it. There's a slight difference here, a jerk would abuse and mentally break down a girl, while a nice guy using these skills is just having fun and doesn't mean any harm by it. You can be nice to girls but sometimes you have to keep a woman in check if she's acting really unreasonable. An analogy wouble be if you had a kid, you love them but if they do something stupid like steal money from you, you would have to discipline them. Don't accept bad behavior from your girlfriend just because she's your girlfriend. Deangelo is showing how guys can be the man that girls are interested in. You can be a nice guy but you can't be a nice guy ALL THE TIME is the point. There's actually a lot more manipulative things out there to explain the dating game but I've found Deangelo to have some sort of morals in this field.

Let me also share a little about myself, SuperTech, I'm kind of in your positiion, I've been a nice guy all my life, and we really don't deserve the lack of opportunities to date woman that we should. Deangelo was actually a nice guy himself, but found that being too nice to woman drove them away. I had this experience with this girl where I was funny and interesting to be around, she really liked me but when she went away for the summer, I called her a lot, acted too clingly, became a super nice guy and it drove her away. I'm also average to above average looking and have a lot of things going for me(not to brag) but being a nice guy hasn't worked wonders for me, in fact I've never had a g/f my entire life. Also to reiterate what someone else said earlier but to expand on it, the skills Deangelo teaches are for the intial meetings with women not the entire relationship, you can be teasing at first then reveal your nice guy ness later on.

As for all the girls here that are looking for a nice guy, where are you? I've been looking for a nice girl myself. (I'm also in Cali)
I do believe maybe a few decades ago a nice guy would get his fair share of dates but times have changed(in the US anyways). I alway that I would love to treat a woman like a princess assuming if I was nice to her she'll be nice to me. Can any ladies here agree or disagree on this? Being a princess for so long can become too much for a woman over time.


Also as I study more about relationships and what makes women happy, the more I'm curious how and why God would design us like this, where man is logical/visual and woman is emotional/feeling. Complimentary yet opposites design by the Creator, ingenious, but very tough for us guys to decipher!

 

[Macrina]

Chino, a few different thoughts occurred to me as I was reading your post...

What he's saying isn't really to make women like you by making fun of her. But it's communicating that you're treating her as equal to you. He also means to do it in a fun way, not the way a jerk would do it. There's a slight difference here, a jerk would abuse and mentally break down a girl, while a nice guy using these skills is just having fun and doesn't mean any harm by it.

Thanks for the clarification on what the author was getting at. Still, though, I would caution anyone against adopting this technique wholeheartedly. Yeah, some people are naturally teasing kind of people, but that sort of thing can really open the door to misinterpretation, especially if you don't know the other person very well yet (which seems to be the idea in this case). I would perhaps venture the opposite, in fact -- that that kind of teasing should wait until you know someone better, well enough for them to know you are only just joking. This goes for any kind of interpersonal relationship; when you don't know someone well, it is all too easy to misinterpret teasing. I'm not saying it's always out of line, I'm just saying don't adopt it as a blanket policy, thinking it's going to lead you to a satisfying relationship.

You can be nice to girls but sometimes you have to keep a woman in check if she's acting really unreasonable. An analogy wouble be if you had a kid, you love them but if they do something stupid like steal money from you, you would have to discipline them.

I hope you didn't mean this to come out the way it sounds.

I had this experience with this girl where I was funny and interesting to be around, she really liked me but when she went away for the summer, I called her a lot, acted too clingly, became a super nice guy and it drove her away. I'm also average to above average looking and have a lot of things going for me(not to brag) but being a nice guy hasn't worked wonders for me, in fact I've never had a g/f my entire life.

There's a difference between being "nice" and being "clingy." When I hear male friends of mine complain that "nice guys finish last," what they seem to be talking about is consideration, sensitivity, and lack of aggression or dominance. They look at relationships where the women are dominated by some bully of a "man," and they think "now why would she ever go for a jerk like that when there are nice guys like me around?" "Nice" meaning "not a bully." But you can refrain from bullying without being clingy. Some people get into a relationship with such a sense of desperation that they lose all of their autonomy to the other person. That's not a good idea for either gender!

I alway that I would love to treat a woman like a princess assuming if I was nice to her she'll be nice to me. Can any ladies here agree or disagree on this? Being a princess for so long can become too much for a woman over time.

Again, I think we need to look at how we're defining "nice." I in no way equate a man being nice with his treating me like a princess. If a man worships me, can't be apart from me, and offers slavish wholehearted devotion to me... yeah, that's flattering, but not my definition of "nice." It's not even very attractive, because it seems so unbalanced. A man doesn't have to put me on a royal pedestal in order to be nice or to treat me like an equal. He just needs to be confident enough in himself not to have to try to prove his dominion over me as some kind of warped sign of masculinity.

When I say I want a "nice" man, what I mean is this: A man who thinks of how his words and actions impact others. A man who respects those around him and is aware of the needs and preferences of others. A man who is open, honest, and trustworthy. He is not a pushover, but he is mature enough so that he doesn't feel like he constantly needs to "win." In fact, he doesn't define his relationships in terms of winning and losing, or who has the upper hand over whom -- He simply values the people in his life and with confidence and compassion works at his relationships. This includes his relationships with family, friends... and me.

The flip side of this is that I consider myself a "nice" woman and I would try to treat this "nice" man the same way he treats me. Consideration of the other person goes both ways. Non-dominating behavior goes both ways (in fact, the Bible says that women are not to be domineering). While I do not cease to be an individual when I am with a man, I do choose to respect and honor him, sometimes putting his needs or the needs of the relationship above what might seem individually beneficial to me. To me, that is love, that is committment, and that is what I mean when I say that I want a "nice" guy. I suppose this is also how I interpret the scriptural passages that discuss marital relationships and submission. It is a relationship in which both parties, without desperation or weakness, choose to honor God and the other person above themselves.

 

[Greenriser]

There are really three types of Guys if you must know.

There's the charming ones. The downside is they can be insincere.

There's the bad ones. The downside is they can be irresponsible.

Then there's the nice ones. They are good friends or lovers. The downside is they can be sincere at the worst times, and can be so responsible it can get boring.

That was all a secret - only joking .

 

[desi]

There are really three types of Guys if you must know.

There's the charming ones. The downside is they can be insincere.

There's the bad ones. The downside is they can be irresponsible.

Then there's the nice ones. They are good friends or lovers. The downside is they can be sincere at the worst times, and can be so responsible it can get boring.

That was all a secret - only joking .

Boringness seems to be the deal breaker these days because women don't need a man for food & a roof anymore.

 

[Chino]

Macrina you gave a lot of good insight. Let me clarify some things.

I hope you didn't mean this to come out the way it sounds.

Some girls can be a little demanding, what I mean is you have to set certain rules in a relationship and not tolerate things like lies, and deception. I would never hit a woman.

There's a difference between being "nice" and being "clingy." When I hear male friends of mine complain that "nice guys finish last," what they seem to be talking about is consideration, sensitivity, and lack of aggression or dominance. They look at relationships where the women are dominated by some bully of a "man," and they think "now why would she ever go for a jerk like that when there are nice guys like me around?" "Nice" meaning "not a bully." But you can refrain from bullying without being clingy. Some people get into a relationship with such a sense of desperation that they lose all of their autonomy to the other person. That's not a good idea for either gender!

Yeah I agree, I didn't realize the difference for a long time. Maybe it was all the love songs I liked about being with a girl forever made me clingy but I thought of it as being nice. I'm sure other guys aren't aware of this difference.

Again, I think we need to look at how we're defining "nice." I in no way equate a man being nice with his treating me like a princess. If a man worships me, can't be apart from me, and offers slavish wholehearted devotion to me... yeah, that's flattering, but not my definition of "nice." It's not even very attractive, because it seems so unbalanced. A man doesn't have to put me on a royal pedestal in order to be nice or to treat me like an equal. He just needs to be confident enough in himself not to have to try to prove his dominion over me as some kind of warped sign of masculinity.

This is where it gets tricky for the guys, we equate being "nice" to a woman as treating them like a princess, taking them out to dinner, spending a lot of money on them because we want to show that they mean a lot to us. This is really interesting because guys and girls interpret nice as almost two different things.

When I say I want a "nice" man, what I mean is this: A man who thinks of how his words and actions impact others. A man who respects those around him and is aware of the needs and preferences of others. A man who is open, honest, and trustworthy. He is not a pushover, but he is mature enough so that he doesn't feel like he constantly needs to "win." In fact, he doesn't define his relationships in terms of winning and losing, or who has the upper hand over whom -- He simply values the people in his life and with confidence and compassion works at his relationships. This includes his relationships with family, friends... and me.

That's a great definition of "nice"! I would almost like to argue that it's more closer to "cool".

 

[SuperTech]

There are really three types of Guys if you must know.

There's the charming ones. The downside is they can be insincere.

There's the bad ones. The downside is they can be irresponsible.

Then there's the nice ones. They are good friends or lovers. The downside is they can be sincere at the worst times, and can be so responsible it can get boring.

That was all a secret - only joking .

So what if I am a charming, nice guy with a bad side?

 

[SuperTech]

Let me also share a little about myself, SuperTech, I'm kind of in your position, I've been a nice guy all my life, and we really don't deserve the lack of opportunities to date woman that we should. Deangelo was actually a nice guy himself, but found that being too nice to woman drove them away. I had this experience with this girl where I was funny and interesting to be around, she really liked me but when she went away for the summer, I called her a lot, acted too clingly, became a super nice guy and it drove her away. I'm also average to above average looking and have a lot of things going for me(not to brag) but being a nice guy hasn't worked wonders for me, in fact I've never had a g/f my entire life. Also to reiterate what someone else said earlier but to expand on it, the skills Deangelo teaches are for the initial meetings with women not the entire relationship, you can be teasing at first then reveal your nice guy ness later on.

Chino,

Thank you for posting! It's encouraging to know there are others like me out there. I think my main problem is not I have not socialized much. I always said: after high school I will meet a woman. And then I got into college and said I was too busy with my studies, so after college I will meet a woman. And when I got into my career I said I was too busy to socialize because I need to focus I getting comfortable in my career. And then I went back to school to get some certifications, so I was again to busy to socialize and meet women. I think I am out of excuses now.

I given it to Christ and I am praying about this nightly. Just a very short prayer. I'll put myself in the proper places this year and trust He will guide my ways. Of course once I get this "woman" I will then have to pray about how to treat her and how to deal with my "fleshly desires" in a Godly way. Oh, enough about though.

 

[Chino]

I think there's two parts to it. I do think women tend to want someone exciting. Maybe not every woman wants the bad boy, but I think women tend to look for something that makes the guy exciting. Maybe he's just really witty, maybe he's into extreme sports, maybe there's a bit of rebel in there. I'm the living epitome of Charlie Brown, I haven't been able to do much to attract the attention of the cute little red headed girl.

You're right on here about women want someone exciting, and I think that every guy can be exciting. The more I learn about relationships, I think women want a nice guy but they need some "fun" as well. Fun can be spontainity, unpredictability, romance, humor and happy times.

But I also think that women want a man who is confident in who he is. Many nice guys are full of fear, intimidated by women, or they're just push overs. I think women want a man who respects them, but also protects them. There's still the longing for the knight in shining armor in there. They want a nice guy, but they want a man. This is where I tend to get in trouble, around the women that I'm not concerned about whether they are interested in me I tend to be fairly comfortable and confident. If I have an interest in someone I'm much more self conscious. I'm working on that.

You're onto something here, and I agree a lot with what you say. Women want a man to lead, dominate and to be the person in control. I don't mean this in an abusive way either, but if you're going out to dinner, the man should decide where to go most of time, asking a woman where she wants to go too much, will make her the decision maker which she might or might not be comfortable with. Fear of attractive women is really interesting, (sometimes I wonder why God would design this mechanisn in men's mind to be nervous around a woman they find pretty. ), I always had the problem you're talking about but what I've come to realize is, I'm more closer to my real self when I'm around women I'm not interested in than when I'm around a woman that is in my definition, beautiful. I think we get nervous because we want to get a beatiful woman's approval so bad that we aren't really ourselve s and we become someone were really not. The attitude to have is not to care if she likes you or not because you're projecting your true self not a needy guy.

Now this is just me thinking out loud, but maybe there's an unsaid communication that happens between men and women. Maybe in a relationship between a man and a woman there has to come a point where the man expresses confidence in such a way that attracts her attention. As she begins to give attention to the man he notices that (maybe not in an obvious way) and he responds to that with a greater confidence. The man's confidence has to come first from God, but it also grows at it's nutured by affirmation from the woman. I don't know if that makes any sense at all.

This makes a lot of sense.

I don't know if any of that made any sense at all, I had a long phone conversation in the middle of writing it. Men don't need to be macho, but they do need to be men. Not all women look for the bad boys, but there's a desire for a real man, not a push over.

Relationships are hard but I think woman really want a man to : give her great emotions throughout the relationship(humor, romance, etc), be masculine, be interesting, provide her security, stimulate her mind, take charge/lead, give her love, and create a great future. This is my idea so far and I'm still learning...

 

[Chino]

Chino,

Thank you for posting! It's encouraging to know there are others like me out there. I think my main problem is not I have not socialized much. I always said: after high school I will meet a woman. And then I got into college and said I was too busy with my studies, so after college I will meet a woman. And when I got into my career I said I was too busy to socialize because I need to focus I getting comfortable in my career. And then I went back to school to get some certifications, so I was again to busy to socialize and meet women. I think I am out of excuses now.

I given it to Christ and I am praying about this nightly. Just a very short prayer. I'll put myself in the proper places this year and trust He will guide my ways. Of course once I get this "woman" I will then have to pray about how to treat her and how to deal with my "fleshly desires" in a Godly way. Oh, enough about though.

Wow Wow Wow! This is almost like me to it's scary! I'm also 25 btw, are you Asian too btw? High school was about getting into college, while my other friends excelled at social skills I stagnated, but my academic skills excelled. College was all about studies and preparing for the work world, no time for dating for me. And when a girl was interested I mess it up big time by not being fun and interesting. Now my work is full of guys so no luck with women there.


I also pray about it and it's really hard for us Christian guys to not fall into temptation but few people can realize the kind of life we have of not having a good meaningful relationship with the opposite sex. I'm not here to complain because the single life has a lot of benefits like time for hobbies which I have too much of, but it's almost like an unfullfilling life. Anyways this is really weird SuperTech how similiar we are in life.

 

[SuperTech]

Wow Wow Wow! This is almost like me to it's scary! I'm also 25 btw, are you Asian too btw?

No, but I had Asian friends before does that count? Your nickname keeps reminding me of that outcast kid on that Fox show called the "O.C." His nickname is Chino, but he's not Asian. I think it's because he used to live in "Chino", California.

I think the 20-something nurses work on the weekends where I'm employed. Maybe I'll get called in at the right time someday.