NFP in Marriage?

[~Anastasia~]

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, in the first edition (1963) of his famous book, “The Orthodox Church”, simply points out:

“Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church.” (did the Truth change, or did Met. Kallistos change?)

Sadly, I fear this must be the question we must be aware of. Given some hints of possible changes on other topics recently ...

 

[gzt]

The OCA Synod states in their encyclial:

Married couples may express their love in sexual union without always intending the conception of a child, but only those means of controlling conception within marriage are acceptable which do not harm a fetus already conceived.

I'll stand with, uh, my bishops. EDIT: https://oca.org/holy-synod/statemen...age-family-sexuality-and-the-sanctity-of-life If you want it. From 1992.

 

[gzt]

Sadly, I fear this must be the question we must be aware of. Given some hints of possible changes on other topics recently ...

It could be that he updated to include more accurate information. If the Church can't be wrong but it's now saying something different from what one source reported earlier, perhaps the earlier source was just this guy, you know? It's so odd that these official statements differ from these random guys on the internet...

 

[gzt]

This is a conversation within the range of Orthodox opinions,.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It could be that he updated to include more accurate information. If the Church can't be wrong but it's now saying something different from what one source reported earlier, perhaps the earlier source was just this guy, you know? It's so odd that these official statements differ from these random guys on the internet...

Well gzt, to be honest -

This isn't a question that affects me. If it were, I'd have to do more research.

But even if several official jurisdications say - softened their stance on same-sex activity - that doesn't mean I'd embrace it. Even if I were a person who was same-sex attracted or for some other reason had deep personal reasons for wanting it to be true.

Sadly, there will be voices in books, sometimes from leadership, and certainly from random people on the internet who will be wrong. It is always our responsibility to search out the consensus of the Church, in any question, is it not?

But opposing a position with a few quotes from either side of any polarized opinion is not enough. Though I would always give more weight to Saints and ECFs than I would to a contemporary priest or metropolitan or even jurisdiction that issues anything "updated".

So it's not really "so odd" unfortunately. It happens. On many topics. And this is the safe path I've found of discovering what to believe.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The OCA Synod states in their encyclial:


I'll stand with, uh, my bishops. EDIT: https://oca.org/holy-synod/statemen...age-family-sexuality-and-the-sanctity-of-life If you want it. From 1992.

This quote doesn't actually say "contraception is perfectly ok".

It says that not every instance of sexual activity needs to have the purpose of creating children. It says that methods of contraception which harm a fetus are not allowed.

The rest needs to be discussed with one's priest. The real spiritual question is the couple's motives. The OP asked if NFP was allowed. Presumably it would be but the real question will be why the couple doesn't want to conceive.

 

[gzt]

But even if several official jurisdications say - softened their stance on same-sex activity - that doesn't mean I'd embrace it. Even if I were a person who was same-sex attracted or for some other reason had deep personal reasons for wanting it to be true.
.

You're dealing in hypotheticals, we're dealing with what is actually the case! Sure, hypothetically, if a synod said murder was fine - but are you really going to assert that this is what's going on right now? That's a pretty weighty accusation. Do you really want to accuse the bishops of the Church who are charged with rightly dividing the word of truth of that?!

 

[gzt]

This quote doesn't actually say "contraception is perfectly ok".

It says that not every instance of sexual activity needs to have the purpose of creating children. It says that methods of contraception which harm a fetus are not allowed.

The rest needs to be discussed with one's priest. The real spiritual question is the couple's motives. The OP asked if NFP was allowed. Presumably it would be but the real question will be why the couple doesn't want to conceive.

I've never said that, either! That's not what's at issue - it's that , to quote my original statement, contraception is not per se wrong and that the Church is not against birth control (and that one poster was wrong to say that people who say that are misinformed or lying). The orthowiki I quoted earlier has a fair statement of what I mean: the Church "may be fairly described as the teaching that non-abortifacient contraception is acceptable if it is used with the blessing of one's spiritual father, and if it is not used to avoid having children for purely selfish reasons." This statement is apparently beyond the pale to some.

EDIT: also to nitpick a nuance, it says "only those means of controlling conception within marriage are acceptable which do not harm a fetus already conceived." It positively states what is acceptable, not what is not acceptable - explicitly stating that some means of contraception are acceptable.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You're dealing in hypotheticals, we're dealing with what is actually the case! Sure, hypothetically, if a synod said murder was fine - but are you really going to assert that this is what's going on right now? That's a pretty weighty accusation. Do you really want to accuse the bishops of the Church who are charged with rightly dividing the word of truth of that?!

This is a bit of hyperbole.

Why on earth do you suggest I accuse the bishops of saying murder is fine? Seriously ... this post is unwarranted.

I merely said that even if modern positions appear to be softened - that doesn't matter if they are in opposition to earlier doctrine. Sometimes priests and bishops do say things in error. It is our duty to find truth in that case. And I stand by that.

 

[gzt]

The direction in your post is just the same as the hyperbolic one I put - you're suggesting a hyperbolic movement that isn't happening, we need to deal with the concrete situation we have in front of us.

 

[Loren T.]

Oh yeah, that works. It's why my mom and dad had 8 kids.

 

[Platina]

God bless you, Anastasia. Your ability to be no-nonsense but remain calm about it is a highlight of this forum!

 

[nutroll]

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, in the first edition (1963) of his famous book, “The Orthodox Church”, simply points out:

“Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church.” (did the Truth change, or did Met. Kallistos change?)

Not to nitpick, but his first edition was published 3 years before he was ordained a priest. Isn't it conceivable that his later editions reflect a better understanding of the issue based on what he saw and experienced pastorally as both a priest and a Bishop? I think that's the problem with threads like this. It's largely a pastoral issue. our bishops should be having these kinds of conversations with each other and with their priests so that they know how to deal with parishioners. Laity should be having the conversation with their priest rather than arguing on the internet.

 

[gzt]

Not to nitpick, but his first edition was published 3 years before he was ordained a priest. Isn't it conceivable that his later editions reflect a better understanding of the issue based on what he saw and experienced pastorally as both a priest and a Bishop? I think that's the problem with threads like this. It's largely a pastoral issue. our bishops should be having these kinds of conversations with each other and with their priests so that they know how to deal with parishioners. Laity should be having the conversation with their priest rather than arguing on the internet.

He was also, like, only in his late 20s at the time.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not to nitpick, but his first edition was published 3 years before he was ordained a priest. Isn't it conceivable that his later editions reflect a better understanding of the issue based on what he saw and experienced pastorally as both a priest and a Bishop? I think that's the problem with threads like this. It's largely a pastoral issue. our bishops should be having these kinds of conversations with each other and with their priests so that they know how to deal with parishioners. Laity should be having the conversation with their priest rather than arguing on the internet.

This is true - it would be much more profitable to ask one's priest and then be able to explore any nuances.

 

[Platina]

Laity should be having the conversation with their priest rather than arguing on the internet.

The problem is if someone just flat-out says that contraception is OK, then this conversation isn't even necessary.

But if we maintain that the Church's standard is against contraception, but yet there is economia, then this conversation comes into play.

 

[nutroll]

The problem is if someone just flat-out says that contraception is OK, then this conversation isn't even necessary.

But if we maintain that the Church's standard is against contraception, but yet there is economia, then this conversation comes into play.

I haven't seen any statements that indicate that all uses of contraception are hunky dory. I see exactly these kind of statements that show it is not the ideal but that a conversation can be had with one's priest if someone is struggling.

 

[Platina]

At least one user in this thread has characterized such a statement as an "extreme." And Met. Kallistos goes from saying contraception is forbidden, to there's differing opinions- talk it out with your spiritual father, to this is a matter for the couple's own conscience (mention of spiritual father is dropped in the 1993 version)- no spiritual guidance needed in such a scenario.

 

[gzt]

Oh good grief.

 

[Platina]

jckstraw72 said: "The Church is opposed to birth control as its standard. Relaxation of that standard can come into play through counsel with one's spiritual father, as Fr. Josiah Trenham teaches, for example."

you replied: Sure, he's toward one extreme of accepted Orthodox thought.

Nutroll has now said: I see exactly these kind of statements that show it is not the ideal but that a conversation can be had with one's priest if someone is struggling.

Yes, you called such a position extreme.

NOTE: I see you've edited your post. Originally you were claiming that what I said was false, thus this post demonstrating that what I said is true.