NFP for "Spacing"

[Ampmonster]

i think Geo's post #31 summed it up the best...er for me anyway

 

[RhetorTheo]

No, the dictionary does. It is defined as "deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation." http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=contraception

I have no problem with people saying that contraception is good when done by them and wrong when done by others, or contraception is good when done for certain reasons, but let's call a spade a spade. If you are acting to prevent conception, that is contraception.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Shannon,

I agree with all that but what shocked me is this was in the news paper last week and it is for those who aren't poor and can well afford to pay for quality care but won't.

The income level was ridiculous, a family of three can make up to 50,000 and family of 8 around 80,000 almost and if you make over that, you can deduct for child support payments and day care expenses. The qualifications are strictly by income and not based on any assets you have, not even cash in the bank or insurance. I think this is crazy. What this says is that people are just too cheap to spend their money on having a baby, they would rather spend it on other things.

I think nearly all prenatal care in our country is humiliating and treats women with very little respect and dignity-- if we have a system of doctors and healthcare providers who treat pregnancy as a pathology, rather than a joy-- I think that goes a long way in turning people away...
It is a very, very sad thing that people do not get proper pre-natal care, as it is so important for the mom and child!!
I don't think it is just the fault of the women or families, though. ALso- we have insurance, but still have a $600 deductible and then pay 10%-- that adds up quickly- with OB, hospital stay, lab work, pediatricians. I have ongoing health issues- that I cannot address, because we just don't have the money to pay for insurance and medical care....Perhaps it is people like us who this program is aimed at?? (I don't do any pre-natal tests, so pre natal care for me consists of cking my weight, urine, fundal height and baby's heartbeat and position. I think if people were struggling financially, it might be easy to justify to themselves that this is unnecessary. I happen to think that more emphasis needs to be given to proper nutrition and emotional well-being and that would make prenatal care more meaningful)

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I have no problem with people saying that contraception is good when done by them and wrong when done by others, or contraception is good when done for certain reasons, but let's call a spade a spade. If you are acting to prevent conception, that is contraception.

You obviously have reasons for wanting to maintain your current position on the matter- just know that it is not what the Church say about the matter. God Bless you- I will pray for your peace....

 

[geocajun]

If you are engaging in the deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation, for any period of time, during that time you are contracepting.

RT, this is a case where the dictionary has been tainted - similarly if you look up the word 'love' you will find differences between secular and theological understanding. There are tons of other examples.

Contraception, theologically speaking is working against God and actually make sex hostile to procreation - thus sinful.

NFP, properly used, is working WITH God by always respecting the whole purpose of sex - that of unity and procreation.

 

[Ampmonster]

ok so its contraception. what we need to worry about is if its ok to nfp for certain reasons in Gods eyes.. i think if you really really cant afford/raise another kid, God doesnt want married folks to stop doing it

 

[geocajun]

Are you saying that everytime that my husband and I refrain from relations during my fertile time that we are contracepting??

Thats really the part where common sense must kick in huh

"Soo.... by not having sex with my wife today, I am sinning?"

 

[RhetorTheo]

I now know why Catholics use the word "spacing." Is there a reason why Catholics say they are "not contracepting"? I don't think I've ever heard the word contraception used in the active sense like that. Is there some bull or document that says you cannot "contracept" or use contraception?

 

[geocajun]

I now know why Catholics use the word "spacing." Is there a reason why Catholics say they are "not contracepting"? I don't think I've ever heard the word contraception used in the active sense like that. Is there some bull or document that says you cannot "contracept" or use contraception?

Again, Contraception works against God - NFP does not if used properly.

CCC-2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

CCC-2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:


Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

 

[RhetorTheo]

Nature naturally spaces children by making women significantly less fertile while they are breastfeeding. This is intended by nature. Taking temperatures to refrain during parts of a woman's cycle doesn't strike me as natural.

 

[geocajun]

Nature naturally spaces children by making women significantly less fertile while they are breastfeeding. This is intended by nature. Taking temperatures to refrain during parts of a woman's cycle doesn't strike me as natural.

OK, then you might prefer the billings method or Creighton method if you do not like the Sympto-Thermal method.. its up to you.
All are valid forms of Natural Family Planning though - even if thermomitors feel artificial to you.

 

[RhetorTheo]

If contraception has a "theological definition" different from the dictionary definition, where would I find the term used this way in the Church's teachings, defining NFP as not being contraception?

OT: I often hear pro-choicers call abortion "contraception."

 

[geocajun]

If contraception has a "theological definition" different from the dictionary definition, where would I find the term used this way in the Church's teachings, defining NFP as not being contraception?

perhaps your posting faster than your reading the responses to your posts RT.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=2452256&postcount=49

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Nature naturally spaces children by making women significantly less fertile while they are breastfeeding. This is intended by nature. Taking temperatures to refrain during parts of a woman's cycle doesn't strike me as natural.

I neither take my temperature nor do any internal exams-- but a woman's body lets her know when she is fertile-- am I to pretend that those signals don't exist?? I think this is a very natural approach, one that repects the woman immensely!

 

[Ampmonster]

"OT: I often hear pro-choicers call abortion "contraception.""

 

[RhetorTheo]

CCC-2399 morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

CCC-2370 the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.

Okay, thanks, that explains it. The CCC says contraception is unacceptable, but deliberately avoiding conception or pregancy by avoiding fertile periods can be acceptable. It's using the term contraception differently from how the dictionary uses it.

 

[Benedicta00]

I think nearly all prenatal care in our country is humiliating and treats women with very little respect and dignity-- if we have a system of doctors and healthcare providers who treat pregnancy as a pathology, rather than a joy-- I think that goes a long way in turning people away...

That really hasn't been my experience. I get hassled about what I'm going to do about B/C but I do not get treated poorly by doctrors.

It is a very, very sad thing that people do not get proper pre-natal care, as it is so important for the mom and child!!
I don't think it is just the fault of the women or families, though. ALso- we have insurance, but still have a $600 deductible and then pay 10%-- that adds up quickly- with OB, hospital stay, lab work, pediatricians. I have ongoing health issues- that I cannot address, because we just don't have the money to pay for insurance and medical care....Perhaps it is people like us who this program is aimed at??

I would go for that if the income requirements weren’t really high and that it did not matter if you had the cash on hand.

(I don't do any pre-natal tests, so pre natal care for me consists of cking my weight, urine, fundal height and baby's heartbeat and position. I think if people were struggling financially, it might be easy to justify to themselves that this is unnecessary. I happen to think that more emphasis needs to be given to proper nutrition and emotional well-being and that would make prenatal care more meaningful)

The point is, there is no excuse not to get the care one needs, if you truly are not financially able to afford it, the state will pay and they pay for private doctors and hospitals but they now are also paying when you clearly can afford it. It just is speaking to the fact that our priority financially is not where it needs to be. I don't know how many women in our society are indeed neglecting their heath who don't have to and have no excuse not to but you would think by this program that many must be.

I know for my second and third child we had no insurance and there was no such program for us at that time. I paid 100% out of pocket for the proper care. The hospital and doctors have special rates for the non insured, the total coast ran back then around 5000 for a C section patient. The doctor gives you until the 7th month to pay their fee and the hospital will let you slide, as long as you pay a deposit, until your discharge and if you don’t pay in full then, you will be billed total charges.

So my point is, it may take much sacrifice but there are those who could pay if this was a priority to them, IMO. They do have those who can not and that is fine by me but to say that even if you are upper middle class, have two incomes, property, cars, medical insurence and cash in the bank you still may qualify, is insane.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Marcia, I'm only a new Catholic, so I know that my opinion counts next to nothing in this forum, but I wanted to tell you that I agree with you. I feel as though NFP has taken too much liberty with the "serious reasons" clause of Humanae Vitae. But then again, I'm not a real Catholic, so what do I know...

Will you please STOP THAT young man. Right now. (the you're not a real Catholic part)

Michelle

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

RT-- I think this is no longer really a discussion, but it truly appears as if you have an opinion that you are trying to justify-- take it to Adoration, pray about it, ask Jesus to show you the role of NFP in your life... I have friends whose husbands make lots of money, and their health is good, and their children's health is good- and they don't use NFP at all.... but someone like me, my husband does not make much money and my health is rather dubious, and we use NFP so that we can be good stewards to the gifts we are given.... we also try to overcome those difficulties that are in our way- since by waiting a year, my health, for example, will likely be better ( I've had 7 pregncncies and my body is plumb wore out! If we wait a little it makes it safer for the baby and for me...) There seems to be a brick wall in this area that you have erected and don't seem quite ready to knock down. The Church is often presented as stoic and without heart-- but the Church is our Mother and is alwaays looking out for our best interests....

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

That really hasn't been my experience. I get hassled about what I'm going to do about B/C but I do not get treated poorly by doctrors.



I would go for that if the income requirements weren’t really high and that it did not matter if you had the cash on hand.



The point is, there is no excuse not to get the care one needs, if you truly are not financially able to afford it, the state will pay and they pay for private doctors and hospitals but they now are also paying when you clearly can afford it. It just is speaking to the fact that our priority financially is not where it needs to be. I don't know how many women in our society are indeed neglecting their heath who don't have to and have no excuse not to but you would think by this program that many must be.

I know for my second and third child we had no insurance and there was no such program for us at that time. I paid 100% out of pocket for the proper care. The hospital and doctors have special rates for the non insured, the total coast ran back then around 5000 for a C section patient. The doctor gives you until the 7th month to pay their fee and the hospital will let you slide, as long as you pay a deposit, until your discharge and if you don’t pay in full then, you will be billed total charges.

So my point is, it may take much sacrifice but there are those who could pay if this was a priority to them, IMO. They do have those who can not and that is fine by me but to say that even if you are upper middle class, have two incomes, property, cars, medical insurence and cash in the bank you still may qualify, is insane.

On one hand I agree, but on the other I think our money as a nation might be well spent on things such as this-- the attitude of investing in our future and that children are a precious natural resource, it might go a long way into changing our attitudes about pregnancy and birth if the government treated reproduction as something it was willing to pay for....

God bless you!! Your openess to life is so inspiring!!