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New vax science shows mandates unwise

whatbogsends

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New scientific findings in the prestigious Lancet Infectious Diseases journal blow a hole in the argument that workers need to get vaccinated to protect those around them. The findings prove the foolishness of forcing police and other public employees to get jabbed or lose their pay. And President Joe Biden should retract his order to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to compel large employers to mandate vaccines.

The journal reported Thursday that COVID-19 vaccines have “minimal” impact on preventing transmission of the delta strain. Delta is the COVID strain currently causing over 99% of U.S. cases.

Vaccines protect the people getting the shots from serious illness, but they don’t stop the delta variant from spreading to others.

Don’t get me wrong. Americans should choose to get vaccinated. The key word is “choose.” Though shots are no guarantee against getting infected and spreading it to others, they provide significant protection (90% or more) against hospitalization and death. I’m triple jabbed.
...
The groundbreaking findings in Lancet show that fully vaccinated people who came down with COVID infected others in their household at the same rate (about 25%) as unvaccinated people did (about 23%). The vaccinated had just as much viral load in their upper respiratory tract, making them just as contagious.


McCaughey: New vax science shows mandates unwise


I believe this is the what is being referenced in the Lancet:

COVID-19 vaccines that have obtained WHO emergency use listing appear to have high efficacy against severe disease and death, but lower efficacy against non-severe infections, and emerging evidence suggests that protection against non-severe disease declines faster following vaccination than that against severe disease and death. What is less clear is whether vaccination not only directly protects individuals but reduces the risk of infection among the contacts of vaccinated people, particularly with respect to the now dominant delta variant. Before the emergence of the delta variant, it was reported that after at least one dose of the mRNA vaccine by Pfizer or the adenoviral vector vaccine by Astra Zeneca, the risk of symptomatic cases in household contacts of vaccinated cases was about 50% lower than that among household contacts of unvaccinated cases.1

The now globally dominant delta variant is more transmissible2
and associated with reduced vaccine effectiveness, particularly against mild breakthrough infections, whereas protection against severe disease is not greatly reduced.3
Data are lacking on whether the effect of vaccination on transmission is lower for the delta variant and new insights on this are provided by a study done in the UK when the delta variant was the predominant strain, reported in The Lancet Infectious Diseases.4
...
To address the primary study outcome to establish the secondary attack rates (SARs) in household contacts, the vaccination statuses for 232 contacts exposed to 162 epidemiologically linked delta-variant-infected index cases were analysed. The SARs in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% in vaccinated and 38% in unvaccinated contacts. These results underpin the key message that vaccinated contacts are better protected than the unvaccinated. All breakthrough infections were mild, and no hospitalisations and deaths were observed. But these results also highlight that breakthrough infections continue to occur in the vaccinated, with an attack rate of 25%. Time since vaccination in fully vaccination contacts was longer for those infected than those uninfected, suggesting that waning of protection might have occurred over time, although teasing out general waning versus reduced vaccine effectiveness due to delta is challenging owing to so many confounding factors.
SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases (25%; 95% CI 15–35) was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (23%; 15–31). Obviously, infection might also have occurred beyond the household level with unknown exposure in the community. Indeed, genomic and virological analysis confirmed only three index-contact pairs. Owing to the small sample size, the authors were not able to establish the vaccine effectiveness against asymptomatic infections versus symptomatic infections. This limitation together with the unconfirmed source of transmission in many of these index-contact pairs, suggests that the low SAR reported here should be interpreted with caution. Nevertheless, the findings raise concern that the effect of vaccination on reducing transmission might be lower for the delta variant compared with the variants that circulated in the UK before the emergence of delta.
...
Although preventing severe disease and deaths remains the primary public health goal in the acute phase of the pandemic, and is still being achieved by available COVID-19 vaccines despite the emergence of the delta variant, addressing SARS-CoV-2 transmission is a crucial additional consideration. Reducing transmission is necessary to reduce virus circulation, reach herd immunity and end this tragic pandemic. This study confirms that COVID-19 vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and also accelerates viral clearance in the context of the delta variant. However, this study unfortunately also highlights that the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context of delta variant circulation. These findings have immediate public health implications. Higher vaccination coverage rates need to be achieved because indirect protection from vaccinated to unvaccinated people remains suboptimal. The question of whether booster doses will improve the impact on transmission should be addressed as a top priority.
7 Research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission. Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay.

DEFINE_ME
 

cow451

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New scientific findings in the prestigious Lancet Infectious Diseases journal blow a hole in the argument that workers need to get vaccinated to protect those around them. The findings prove the foolishness of forcing police and other public employees to get jabbed or lose their pay. And President Joe Biden should retract his order to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to compel large employers to mandate vaccines.

The journal reported Thursday that COVID-19 vaccines have “minimal” impact on preventing transmission of the delta strain. Delta is the COVID strain currently causing over 99% of U.S. cases.

Vaccines protect the people getting the shots from serious illness, but they don’t stop the delta variant from spreading to others.

Don’t get me wrong. Americans should choose to get vaccinated. The key word is “choose.” Though shots are no guarantee against getting infected and spreading it to others, they provide significant protection (90% or more) against hospitalization and death. I’m triple jabbed.
...
The groundbreaking findings in Lancet show that fully vaccinated people who came down with COVID infected others in their household at the same rate (about 25%) as unvaccinated people did (about 23%). The vaccinated had just as much viral load in their upper respiratory tract, making them just as contagious.


McCaughey: New vax science shows mandates unwise


I believe this is the what is being referenced in the Lancet:

COVID-19 vaccines that have obtained WHO emergency use listing appear to have high efficacy against severe disease and death, but lower efficacy against non-severe infections, and emerging evidence suggests that protection against non-severe disease declines faster following vaccination than that against severe disease and death. What is less clear is whether vaccination not only directly protects individuals but reduces the risk of infection among the contacts of vaccinated people, particularly with respect to the now dominant delta variant. Before the emergence of the delta variant, it was reported that after at least one dose of the mRNA vaccine by Pfizer or the adenoviral vector vaccine by Astra Zeneca, the risk of symptomatic cases in household contacts of vaccinated cases was about 50% lower than that among household contacts of unvaccinated cases.1

The now globally dominant delta variant is more transmissible2
and associated with reduced vaccine effectiveness, particularly against mild breakthrough infections, whereas protection against severe disease is not greatly reduced.3
Data are lacking on whether the effect of vaccination on transmission is lower for the delta variant and new insights on this are provided by a study done in the UK when the delta variant was the predominant strain, reported in The Lancet Infectious Diseases.4
...
To address the primary study outcome to establish the secondary attack rates (SARs) in household contacts, the vaccination statuses for 232 contacts exposed to 162 epidemiologically linked delta-variant-infected index cases were analysed. The SARs in household contacts exposed to the delta variant was 25% in vaccinated and 38% in unvaccinated contacts. These results underpin the key message that vaccinated contacts are better protected than the unvaccinated. All breakthrough infections were mild, and no hospitalisations and deaths were observed. But these results also highlight that breakthrough infections continue to occur in the vaccinated, with an attack rate of 25%. Time since vaccination in fully vaccination contacts was longer for those infected than those uninfected, suggesting that waning of protection might have occurred over time, although teasing out general waning versus reduced vaccine effectiveness due to delta is challenging owing to so many confounding factors.
SAR among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases (25%; 95% CI 15–35) was similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (23%; 15–31). Obviously, infection might also have occurred beyond the household level with unknown exposure in the community. Indeed, genomic and virological analysis confirmed only three index-contact pairs. Owing to the small sample size, the authors were not able to establish the vaccine effectiveness against asymptomatic infections versus symptomatic infections. This limitation together with the unconfirmed source of transmission in many of these index-contact pairs, suggests that the low SAR reported here should be interpreted with caution. Nevertheless, the findings raise concern that the effect of vaccination on reducing transmission might be lower for the delta variant compared with the variants that circulated in the UK before the emergence of delta.
...
Although preventing severe disease and deaths remains the primary public health goal in the acute phase of the pandemic, and is still being achieved by available COVID-19 vaccines despite the emergence of the delta variant, addressing SARS-CoV-2 transmission is a crucial additional consideration. Reducing transmission is necessary to reduce virus circulation, reach herd immunity and end this tragic pandemic. This study confirms that COVID-19 vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and also accelerates viral clearance in the context of the delta variant. However, this study unfortunately also highlights that the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context of delta variant circulation. These findings have immediate public health implications. Higher vaccination coverage rates need to be achieved because indirect protection from vaccinated to unvaccinated people remains suboptimal. The question of whether booster doses will improve the impact on transmission should be addressed as a top priority.
7 Research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission. Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay.

DEFINE_ME

DEFINE_ME

Higher vaccination coverage rates need to be achieved because indirect protection from vaccinated to unvaccinated people remains suboptimal. The question of whether booster doses will improve the impact on transmission should be addressed as a top priority.
7Research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission. Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay.
 
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Tanj

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New scientific findings in the prestigious Lancet Infectious Diseases journal blow a hole in the argument that workers need to get vaccinated to protect those around them. The findings prove the foolishness of forcing police and other public employees to get jabbed or lose their pay. And President Joe Biden should retract his order to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to compel large employers to mandate vaccines.


Repeating what @cow451 pointed out, from the article you posted:

"Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay."

Nice to see you supporting lockdowns and mandatory isolations WBS.
 
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Yttrium

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Hmm. Vaccinations are still going to reduce the load on hospitals, and prevent a lot of deaths and long-term health problems from the virus. I don't really see a problem in mandating the vaccine for health care workers, police, and other emergency personnel. I can't really get behind mandating it for everybody.

Clearly it's not doing a great job at stopping the spread of the delta variant. So I can certainly see the continued need for masks, social distancing, and targeted lockdowns.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Even the author of what seems likely to be a biased article notes the difference in measured transmission rates. In the US I have seen statistics that say an unvaccinated person is five times more likely to become ill, and that is with the figures for the new Delta variant. It was even higher in the past:

"The British researchers also found that vaccinated people were only somewhat less likely to contract the virus (25%) compared with the unvaccinated (38%). That conflicts with Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data showing the vaccinated are far less likely to contract COVID."

In the world of medicine one article is never "proof" it is only weak evidence. One needs multiple sources before one can begin to claim to have strong evidence.

In the US it is clear that not only does the vaccine lower transmission rates. It greatly lowers the chance of serious outcomes and lowers the death rate even more. You can see the difference in blue counties versus red counties. The red counties in the US are far more likely to have problems with Covid.
 
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whatbogsends

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Repeating what @cow451 pointed out, from the article you posted:

"Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay."

Nice to see you supporting lockdowns and mandatory isolations WBS.

We should absolutely have social measures in place to limit spread.

Not all protective measures are lockdowns.

I mask, social distance, and don't convene in indoor public spaces, and have no plans on changing that.
 
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whatbogsends

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DEFINE_ME


Higher vaccination coverage rates need to be achieved because indirect protection from vaccinated to unvaccinated people remains suboptimal. The question of whether booster doses will improve the impact on transmission should be addressed as a top priority.
7Research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission. Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay.


Research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission. Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay.

As i have been stating all along, the current vaccines do little to impact the spread of covid.
 
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hedrick

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In the US we no longer need small studies like that, because we have data on whole populations. The vaccines are less effective against infection than against severe consequences, but they are still like 80% against infection. I think NJ is seeing slightly higher effectiveness. In the last 2 weeks NJ had 5 times as many unvaccinated new cases as vaccinated. That would be 80% effective. However we have twice as many vaccinated as unvaccinated, so on a per person basis it’s more like 90%.

Why are there differences between countries? I don’t know, but part of it may be Simpson’s paradox, where different subgroups have different characteristics. I’ve also wondered if it has to do with overall prevalence. If vaccines reduce the probability of getting sick from each encounter, the results could be different in different countries depending upon how prevalent the virus is and other precautions such as masks. But it’s hard to argue with success.
 
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essentialsaltes

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COVID-19 vaccines that have obtained WHO emergency use listing appear to have high efficacy against severe disease and death

You know who has a compelling interest in keeping people alive? We the people.
 
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KCfromNC

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Research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission. Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay.
Yeah, vaccines aren't perfect. I think everyone wants them to improve.

As i have been stating all along, the current vaccines do little to impact the spread of covid.
Are you willing to quantify "little", or is the vagueness an intentional part of the uncertainty in the anti-vaxx FUD?
 
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cow451

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Research efforts should be directed towards enhancing existing vaccines or developing new vaccines that also protect against asymptomatic infections and onward transmission. Until we have such vaccines, public health and social measures will still need to be tailored towards mitigating community and household transmission in order to keep the pandemic at bay.

As i have been stating all along, the current vaccines do little to impact the spread of covid.
Which does not conclude that mandates are not required. Nowhere is that stated in the study.
 
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whatbogsends

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Which does not conclude that mandates are not required. Nowhere is that stated in the study.

No, the study simply concludes that the vaccines don't limit transmission significantly.

The thrust of the mandate is a claim to protect others by the vaccines reducing transmission. As evidence continues to come in, the impact of vaccines in limiting transmission appears extremely limited.

Mandates not being required is simply the logical conclusion to the knowledge that the vaccines don't significantly reduce transmission.
 
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whatbogsends

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Yeah, vaccines aren't perfect. I think everyone wants them to improve.

Everyone wants them to improve, but only some people want to mandate a vaccine which doesn't significantly limit the spread of the virus.

Are you willing to quantify "little", or is the vagueness an intentional part of the uncertainty in the anti-vaxx FUD?

The study referenced did so. That you are trying to ignore what has been posted and focus on semantics is entirely unsurprising.
 
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dzheremi

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I wish we could mandate no more vaccine threads here on CF. That won't stop the virus, either, but it might stop the mind virus of insane anti-vax conspiracy nonsense and/or "mah riiiiights!" hysterics which has infected a significant portion of this formerly edifying website.

Don't want to get vaccinated? Fine. Get covid and roll the dice. But stop glomming on to stuff that you don't understand to push a narrative that is doing nothing but prolonging everyone's misery.
 
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jayem

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as i have been stating all along, the current vaccines do little to impact the spread of covid.

That’s not the primary purpose of immunization. If you were told, or read, that vaccination will greatly reduce transmission, then you were given incorrect information, or you misunderstood. The goal of vaccination is to protect YOU from developing Covid-19 illness severe enough to kill you, or to require hospitalization, or other prolonged medical care. (Which also reduces the burden on our health care system.) The current vaccines are not perfect. They don't work as well for everyone, and they have side effects. (This is true of every medical intervention.) But data clearly shows that populations with high vaccination rates have lower Covid mortality and less hospitalizations. The risk/benefit ratio strongly favors vaccination. Limiting transmission--although related--is a different goal. Masking and social distancing may still be needed. Especially in areas with lower vaccination rates.
 
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rturner76

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Mandates not being required is simply the logical conclusion to the knowledge that the vaccines don't significantly reduce transmission.
But they do so.....
 
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whatbogsends

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That’s not the primary purpose of immunization. If you were told, or read, that vaccination will greatly reduce transmission, then you were given incorrect information, or you misunderstood. The goal of vaccination is to protect YOU from developing Covid-19 illness severe enough to kill you, or to require hospitalization, or other prolonged medical care. (Which also reduces the burden on our health care system.) The current vaccines are not perfect. They don't work as well for everyone, and they have side effects. (This is true of every medical intervention.) But data clearly shows that populations with high vaccination rates have lower Covid mortality and less hospitalizations. The risk/benefit ratio strongly favors vaccination. Limiting transmission--although related--is a different goal. Masking and social distancing may still be needed. Especially in areas with lower vaccination rates.

Why are you telling me this instead of correcting the people who continuously insist that the vaccines prevent transmission?


The Pfizer and Moderna Covid vaccines have a nearly 100% prevention of hospitalization or death from covid. they have 95% success against infection, which is pretty high. Spread isn't fully known but so far results have been good, milder infections generally mean lower viral load which reduces your ability to infect others.

The delta variant is not the fault of science deniers. But the current infection rate is their fault. One can still get infected by the delta variant if one has been vaccinated, but the odds are far less than that of unvaccinated people. So yes, the shaming is well deserved.

The best information I've seen is that 1) those vaccinated with mRNA vaccines have a five-fold reduced risk of infection; 2) when infected have very similar peak viral loads as the unvaccinated; and 3) have high viral loads for a somewhat shorter period of time. Those seem like the relevant facts. What's not known is whether the high nasal viral load in the vaccinated translates into high infectivity.

Again and again, i've been told that these vaccines significantly limit infection, and that the unvaccinated are the ones who are spreading the disease. The evidence doesn't bear out those claims nor conclusion.
 
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whatbogsends

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That’s not the primary purpose of immunization. If you were told, or read, that vaccination will greatly reduce transmission, then you were given incorrect information, or you misunderstood. The goal of vaccination is to protect YOU from developing Covid-19 illness severe enough to kill you, or to require hospitalization, or other prolonged medical care. (Which also reduces the burden on our health care system.) The current vaccines are not perfect. They don't work as well for everyone, and they have side effects. (This is true of every medical intervention.) But data clearly shows that populations with high vaccination rates have lower Covid mortality and less hospitalizations. The risk/benefit ratio strongly favors vaccination. Limiting transmission--although related--is a different goal. Masking and social distancing may still be needed. Especially in areas with lower vaccination rates.

Case in point...

But they do so.....
 
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Blade

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One would think were reading a headline from 2020..no its late almost 2022. Our so called "experts" told us lockdowns were wrong...wait their good.. wait no there wrong. HAHA 2016 then 2019 June prophet said God told him there will be a pandemic world wide but the unscrupulous will take advantage of it (watched him say it)..yep there is video. We heard a PANDEMIC.. that turned into unvaccinated pandemic. Just to find out thats not true. Well in my world here wifes friend that sits by her got coivd.. yes that friend was fully vaccinated. Wife had to stay home a week.. that was last week. Then we found out my sons girl friends mom has covid. Take a guess if she had been fully vaccinated.. Yep! Oh its been a month now and they don't know why shes is still testing positive.. yes again fully vaccinated.

So any MANDATE will not stop this at all. Its hard to really talk about any of this when some are fully and only LEFT or fully only RIGHT!
 
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