• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

New transitional hominin species

Jig

Christ Follower
Oct 3, 2005
4,529
399
Texas
✟23,214.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Oh my goodness, anything with a chimpanzee-sized skull must automatically be considered for chimpanzeehood or you can blame those eeeeeevil evolutionists for distorting the evidence in favor of their made-up theories.

This is not the creationist position. Plus, you have attempted to misrepresent my position even further by introducing ridicule.

First off, creationists are evolutionists. We understand and observe change in organisms (i.e. dogs breeds). What we do not subscribe to is the philosophy of Darwinism.

Second, proper creation theory does not teach that evolution (or evolutionists) is/are evil.

Third, proper creation theory does not suggest that honest Darwinists are distorting the evidence, it instead suggests that they are misinterpreting the full history of the evidence by presupposing a naturalistic origin.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Third, proper creation theory does not suggest that honest Darwinists are distorting the evidence, it instead suggests that they are misinterpreting the full history of the evidence by presupposing a naturalistic origin.



I don't see how this can be called "misinterpretation". Basically, what you are saying is that the evidence shows what scientists says it does and unless God acted via a non-natural miracle, the correct interpretation of the evidence is evolution via natural selection from common ancestors.

It can't be rationally interpreted any other way except by presupposing that God miraculously created "kinds" (including "kinds" that only exist as fossils) in such a way that a person relying only on the evidence would conclude that the theory of evolution is an accurate representation of natural history.

But that hypothesis is untestable.

So how can it be said that the scientific theory is a misinterpretation of the evidence?

All it really comes down to is whether one believes that the evidence came about via God's working through nature or via God's working in a non-natural mode that imitated natural process. And that is a matter of faith, not of presuppositions leading to a misinterpretation of the evidence.

You are actually agreeing that the scientific interpretation is rational and that scientists could come to no other evidence-based conclusion unless they believe it is all a grand miracle. But, of course, that option is not evidence-based.
 
Upvote 0

philadiddle

Drumming circles around you
Dec 23, 2004
3,719
56
44
Canada
Visit site
✟4,522.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
proper creation theory
I didn't know there was a proper creation theory. Where can I find this? Does it explain what species were originally made? Or what species were taken onto the ark? These are questions about creationism that I've never found an answer for, and you'd think that a proper theory would have those details worked out so that they can be tested.
 
Upvote 0

troodon

Be wise and be smart
Dec 16, 2002
1,698
58
40
University of Iowa
Visit site
✟24,647.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why does this matter to me?

Because it falsifies your statement:

"Classic secular taxonomic classifications rely on the assumption of common decent."

I agree...if we look at this through a purely natural worldview where a supernatural mature creation did not take place. However, if God supernaturally created different kinds of animals, then superficial similarity gains profound meaning in that each kind has a common designer.
This is true.
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Papias said:
Jig, you are aware that the taxonomic classification system was established and in use long before common descent was proposed by Darwin, right?

It's also worth noting that some of the first people to notice the anatomical similarities between humans, apes and monkeys (such as 17th century physician Edward Tyson) were theists - all before The Origins of Species was written.
 
Upvote 0

Jig

Christ Follower
Oct 3, 2005
4,529
399
Texas
✟23,214.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't see how this can be called "misinterpretation".

It is a misinterpretation of reality. In reality the universe, our planet, and the biological life contained within did not spring forth from a naturalistic source - it was all created mature by a supernatural being.

Basically, what you are saying is that the evidence shows what scientists says it does and unless God acted via a non-natural miracle, the correct interpretation of the evidence is evolution via natural selection from common ancestors.
No, but close. If this universe and this planet developed into maturity without supernatural intervention from a divine being - such as God - then there must be a naturalistic explanation.

However, since this is not the reality of our origins it is a hopeless endeavor to try and explain our origins under the philosophy of naturalism. This means many natural-based origin theories are more than just wrong - many are impossible (i.e. abiogenesis, etc.).


Taking the example noted above, most scientists would consider abiogenesis a necessary factor in believing in a purely naturalistic origin theory. I agree that this is the naturalistic interpretation of the evidence. I just don't believe it nor do I feel it is possible.

All it really comes down to is whether one believes that the evidence came about via God's working through nature or via God's working in a non-natural mode that imitated natural process.
This is a false dichotomy because you added the clause "that imitated natural processes". Creation is not the imitation of natural processes. It is a real supernatural act.

It boils down to two main philosophical presuppositions. The universe, our planet, and all biological life has either a supernatural origin or a natural origin.

You are actually agreeing that the scientific interpretation is rational and that scientists could come to no other evidence-based conclusion unless they believe it is all a grand miracle.
I never said their interpretation was rational.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jig

Christ Follower
Oct 3, 2005
4,529
399
Texas
✟23,214.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I didn't know there was a proper creation theory. Where can I find this? Does it explain what species were originally made? Or what species were taken onto the ark? These are questions about creationism that I've never found an answer for, and you'd think that a proper theory would have those details worked out so that they can be tested.

It doesn't need to explain what "kinds" were originally made. It doesn't need to explain what "kinds" were taken into the Ark. These are interesting questions and many have attempted to assume their answers, but theses questions are not necessary to answer for this theory to be correct.

...so that they can be tested.
Do your really believe supernatural acts can be tested using the scientific method?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jig

Christ Follower
Oct 3, 2005
4,529
399
Texas
✟23,214.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's also worth noting that some of the first people to notice the anatomical similarities between humans, apes and monkeys (such as 17th century physician Edward Tyson) were theists - all before The Origins of Species was written.

Modern taxonomic classifications go beyond anatomical similarities. Much of these original groupings have since been revised to improve consistency with the Darwinian philosophy of common decent.
 
Upvote 0

Notedstrangeperson

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2008
3,430
110
36
✟19,524.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Jig said:
Modern taxonomic classifications go beyond anatomical similarities. Much of these original groupings have since been revised to improve consistency with the Darwinian philosophy of common decent.
This is partly because genetic evidence gives us a clue about our family tree even more than anatomical evidence does. The system has to update itself when new evidence comes along.
 
Upvote 0

philadiddle

Drumming circles around you
Dec 23, 2004
3,719
56
44
Canada
Visit site
✟4,522.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It doesn't need to explain what "kinds" were originally made. It doesn't need to explain what "kinds" were taken into the Ark. These are interesting questions and many have attempted to assume their answers, but theses questions are not necessary to answer for this theory to be correct.
If it doesn't explain things then it's not a proper theory.
Do your really believe supernatural acts can be tested using the scientific method?
The act itself would not be testable but the relationship between species is testable. Setting out what species came off the ark would allow us to make predictions about what we will find in phylogenetic trees (genetics) and we will be able to falsify if it is true that there was a separate creation, or at least falsify that the species set out to be the originals were the originals or not.

So I ask again, where can I find a copy of this "proper" creation theory that you speak of?
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP

It is a misinterpretation of reality. In reality the universe, our planet, and the biological life contained within did not spring forth from a naturalistic source - it was all created mature by a supernatural being.


But the theory of evolution is not a theory about reality. Any Christian would agree that reality did not simply spring forth. It is a creation.

Evolution is a process within that reality and I don't see how it misinterprets reality as it is not about the nature of reality.

Science is not about the nature of reality at an ontological level. That's a matter for philosophers and theologians to discuss. Scientists focus on what we can learn about empirical phenomena----whatever the nature of reality.





No, but close. If this universe and this planet developed into maturity without supernatural intervention from a divine being - such as God - then there must be a naturalistic explanation.

That's true enough, but that is not what the theory of evolution is saying because that is not what it is about. It is not even what science is about.

Do you not agree that within God's creation there are natural processes which can be accounted for without specific miracles for each and every one? Like the cycle of day & night and of the seasons? Like rainfall and tides? Like the processes of conception and intrauterine development?

Do you not agree that such processes occur in nature and can be explained as natural processes without detracting in any sense from your first statement that the nature of reality as such is that it is a supernatural creation.

The theory of evolution is a theory about such a natural process. That's all.

And so far, you have not spoken at all to the evidence supporting the theory of evolution and how the understanding of the nature of reality you & I agree on leads to misinterpreting that evidence.



However, since this is not the reality of our origins it is a hopeless endeavor to try and explain our origins under the philosophy of naturalism. This means many natural-based origin theories are more than just wrong - many are impossible (i.e. abiogenesis, etc.).


What I fail to see is how the theory of evolution is an attempt to support the philosophy of naturalism. That makes no more sense to me than saying the science of optics (which explains how rainbows form) is an endeavour to explain rainbows under the philosophy of naturalism or that the science of gravity is an endeavour to explain the origin of tides under the philosophy of naturalism.

Surely science can offer an understanding of nature in its own terms apart from replacing a theistic view of the reality of nature.

It seems to me that it is a gross distortion of evolution to treat it as a principle of philosophy rather than as an explanation of a natural phenomenon.


Taking the example noted above, most scientists would consider abiogenesis a necessary factor in believing in a purely naturalistic origin theory. I agree that this is the naturalistic interpretation of the evidence. I just don't believe it nor do I feel it is possible.

Well that takes me back to my first point. Would you say the same of evolution? Would you agree that it is a naturalistic interpretation of the evidence?

If so, why call it a misinterpretation? Even if you don't believe it nor feel it is possible, you are not showing that the evidence has been misinterpreted.





This is a false dichotomy because you added the clause "that imitated natural processes". Creation is not the imitation of natural processes. It is a real supernatural act.


I agree, creation is not the imitation of natural processes. But go back to what I said earlier. Surely the universe God created does have natural processes that do not require specific supernatural actions in addition to the supernatural origin of creation itself.

I believe these natural processes themselves do depend on the constant presence and power of their Creator; but that is a different matter than specific supernatural actions.

My point was that if and when God chooses to intervene in history with a supernatural action, that action may be obvious as contrary to what ordinarily occurs in nature -- like the parting of the sea during the Exodus--or it may imitate nature--as Mary's pregnancy was apparently like any other pregnancy. God may have brought each and every species into creation by a separate supernatural act. But if he did, he did so in such a way that the evidence is identical to what it would be if he brought each and every species into existence via common descent and natural selection.

How then can we know from the physical evidence that evolution is not a natural process?


It boils down to two main philosophical presuppositions. The universe, our planet, and all biological life has either a supernatural origin or a natural origin.


I agree this is an important question and one on which a Christian necessarily opts for a supernatural origin of the created order: universe, space-time, gravity, light, galaxies, stars & planets, life.

But it is an issue entirely outside the theory of evolution and interpreting the evidence adduced for evolution.


I never said their interpretation was rational.

By rational I meant an interpretation that does not depend on God stepping in with a specific supernatural action. e.g. when a city is left without power during a severe thunderstorm a non-rational (not necessarily irrational) explanation would be that God called up this specific thunderstorm and its impact on the power-grid. A rational explanation would see the thunderstorm as part of a meteorological pattern and not a specific supernatural action.

I call the latter a rational explanation because it depends on observation and reasoning from those observations to understand the formation of thunderstorms. The explanation that this particular thunderstorm is an exceptional supernatural act could be true, but all one can do is assert it. No evidence-based reasoning leads to that view.

So, it seems to me that you accept that, unless one calls on a supernatural act to explain the origin of each species (or closely related group of species), the application of rational logic to the evidence does lead to the theory of evolution and is not, per se, a misinterpretation of the evidence.

Any such rational interpretation is undercut by appeal to the supernatural. But that doesn't make it a misinterpretation because rationality cannot foresee the intervention of a supernatural action.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is not the creationist position. Plus, you have attempted to misrepresent my position even further by introducing ridicule.

First off, creationists are evolutionists. We understand and observe change in organisms (i.e. dogs breeds). What we do not subscribe to is the philosophy of Darwinism.

Second, proper creation theory does not teach that evolution (or evolutionists) is/are evil.

Third, proper creation theory does not suggest that honest Darwinists are distorting the evidence, it instead suggests that they are misinterpreting the full history of the evidence by presupposing a naturalistic origin.

Of course I would have been misrepresenting your position - if I had been responding to you. But I was responding to mark kennedy, who (and this is just one instance of hostile hyperbole) has often talked about "extending the right hand of fellowship to evolutionists" if only they meet some vague criterion of his like, oh, I don't know, bowing at the feet of Answers in Genesis and accepting that creationism is true.

Who do you not fellowship with? Mockers and scorners and wicked people, that's who - read Psalm 1. So it's not an exaggeration to say that mark kennedy really does believe that evolutionists are evil in some sense - he certainly talks to us as if we are.

As for the question of distorting evidence, did you see what he actually wrote?

At around 420 cubic centimeters, A. sediba's puny brain compares to those of other Australopithecus specimens and chimpanzees.​
It was found near the site where the Taung Child was found, both of them have chimpanzee size brains....Ok don't laugh....this is going to sound crazy....Has anyone considered the possibility that they are chimpanzee ancestors....

Ok, stop laughing, I'm being serious right now darn it!

He wasn't accusing us of not taking into account some kind of supernatural origin of the fossil. (And is that what you're suggesting to us, by the way, or are you going to cop out and simply stammer that "y-y-your presuppositions are wrong!" without ever being able to say exactly which once again?)

No, he is actually presupposing some kind of entirely naturalistic origin of the fossil, namely one in which they are chimpanzee ancestors. That's not a miraculous origin! That just means they're a different kind of animal from what we evolutionists think, that's all. No miracles involved.

Finally, as far as ridicule is involved, his argument consists entirely of the following:

This fossil skull was found near the Taung Child.
This fossil skull is 420cc.
=========
This could be a chimpanzee ancestor!

I hope even you can see that with standards that low, just about any skull of a similar size could be a chimpanzee ancestor - which is precisely the point I've been trying to make.

So why don't you go educate mark kennedy and all the other creationists here about what proper creation theory actually teaches? It probably stands to reason that if you can't change the minds of even them, you probably can't change the minds of evolutionists like us. Do them a favor and show them the light, so that their theories will stop being faintly, hmmm, ridiculous.
 
Upvote 0