New thought about Pascal's Wager

[SinaloaPaisa]

First: Please do not dodge what I said in the post you quoted. I put effort into what I post and desire at least some acknowledgement in doing that. Thank you!

As for my response to what I quoted you as saying: Not from deceit, which is what pascals wager seems to promote. You either thirst for something or you don't. I think the old adage is that, "Standing in the middle of a church makes you about as much of a Christian than standing in the middle of a garage, makes you a Christian."

If you say you believe only to be heard in your head, saying it, there is no depth to it other than the loudness in which it's reverberated.

I didn't dodge anything. As the question I asked you makes the prior irrelevant.

You are dead wrong on that. People can develop true belief from anything. Everyone is different. Just because it doesn't seem like something you would do or agree with doesn't change the fact that it can happen.

Now you are correct in that simply saying you are a Christian or gong to church mean nothing.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

there is no levels of faith in regards to salvation. you can't have 1/2 faith. their is either honest true full faith or not.

Precisely, what I've been saying and this wager seems to indicate that if one runs headlong into faith then it can be gained, which has never happened. You have to already have a spark and a desire.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

I didn't dodge anything. As the question I asked you makes the prior irrelevant.

You are dead wrong on that. People can develop true belief from anything. Everyone is different. Just because it doesn't seem like something you would do or agree with doesn't change the fact that it can happen.

Now you are correct in that simply saying you are a Christian or gong to church mean nothing.

You know. all I ask is a little integrity from those you discuss issues with. Your response to that is absurd in so many ways it isn't even funny. Your previous reply had nothing to do with what I stated. It was addressing my intent in posting and not what I posted. If this is the measure in which you set your standards in replies then I see not need to continue with this.

Please respond to the points I made in the post I am referring to or say goodbye for this session. The balls in your court.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Guess that ends that. Sorry for being real!

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

Precisely, what I've been saying and this wager seems to indicate that if one runs headlong into faith then it can be gained, which has never happened. You have to already have a spark and a desire.

That is merely your opinion i.e. seems, never happened, have to a have etc. You are adding that bit to it. PW is simply a comparison of why one option is better than another. Bottom line is people can develop true belief from anything. Everyone is different. You have no way of knowing what has happened to everyone that has tried to change their belief. You do not have to have any spark or desire. That is opinion once again.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

You know. all I ask is a little integrity from those you discuss issues with. Your response to that is absurd in so many ways it isn't even funny. Your previous reply had nothing to do with what I stated. It was addressing my intent in posting and not what I posted. If this is the measure in which you set your standards in replies then I see not need to continue with this.

Please respond to the points I made in the post I am referring to or say goodbye for this session. The balls in your court.

Please explain how my statement was absurd.

Quote which reply you are claiming I skipped and I will surely address it.

 

[Black Dog]

But that God is not as likely as Yahweh. Now if you want to debate that we can certainly do that. Present your evidence to support this God and i will do the same for Yahweh.

What does any of that have to do with the probability that this God exists? I'm still waiting for the math.

Nope. You would have to prove Pascals Wager was designed for any made up fairy tale. It wasn't, it was designed specifically from an Atheist vs Christianity POV. Two widely accepted popular belief systems.

Widely accepted and popular means nothing regarding somethings veracity.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

What does any of that have to do with the probability that this God exists? I'm still waiting for the math.

You made a reference to there being another in relation to the Christian God and the probability of them. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

Widely accepted and popular means nothing regarding somethings veracity.

Really? So if you have two restaurants across the street for each other. One is very busy with a big line. The other is dead / empty.

There is no evidence to point to which restaurant is better?

 

[Davian]

You made a reference to there being another in relation to the Christian God and the probability of them. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

Really? So if you have two restaurants across the street for each other. One is very busy with a big line. The other is dead / empty.

There is no evidence to point to which restaurant is better?

I don't see the analogy between restaurants and religion/reality. Restaurants, for the most part, deliver on their promise of food, in varying degrees. Religions, in regards to their core principles, never deliver. All they make are promises.

Do you favour your religion because it makes better promises the alternatives?

truth v lies cartoon

• Davian
• Jan 8, 2013

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Please explain how my statement was absurd.

Quote which reply you are claiming I skipped and I will surely address it.

Oh joy now we are going to play this game are we. You know well what post I mean because I quoted it in my response and in the same post I told you why your response was absurd.

I'm not going to continue this with you if you continue playing the "I don't know game."

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

I don't see the analogy between restaurants and religion/reality. Restaurants, for the most part, deliver on their promise of food, in varying degrees. Religions, in regards to their core principles, never deliver. All they make are promises.

Do you favour your religion because it makes better promises the alternatives?

Now how would you know if religions deliver on their promises? In the case of Christianity I presume you have died and some how came back to life?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Intergrity won't mean much if one is in pain / suffering for all eternity. Sometimes things are just not worth it.

You are making some form of hedonism your standard of value here.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

That is merely your opinion i.e. seems, never happened, have to a have etc. You are adding that bit to it. PW is simply a comparison of why one option is better than another. Bottom line is people can develop true belief from anything. Everyone is different. You have no way of knowing what has happened to everyone that has tried to change their belief. You do not have to have any spark or desire. That is opinion once again.

You can call what I say just my opinion all you want in your attempt to justify this mockery of logic, but that too is your opinion. It is true that everyone is different, but to search for some higher power that can not be physically seen requires the individual to have something missing in his life that drives them to search elsewhere for answers and that is what searching for God is all about. You can't arbitrarily add this thirst to anyone no matter how much you want it to work.

The idea that PW is a comparison to anything comes from the perspective of those who already Christian trying to relate to others what reason and logic are. Reason and logic are different for everyone and that includes those who believe and those who disbelieve.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

Oh joy now we are going to play this game are we. You know well what post I mean because I quoted it in my response and in the same post I told you why your response was absurd.

I'm not going to continue this with you if you continue playing the "I don't know game."

Lets go over this again.

Then you misunderstand the use of the term. Heart is the innermost feelings and your most concentrated intents and purposes. What is on your mind can be as shallow and as transient as a notion.

Sure I agree.

Jesus himself said we should love god in this way: Luke 10:25-27
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

I am failing to see how this proves one one can only come to true belief from only certain factors.

True belief can come from any factor. Everyone is different. What seems unlikely or improbable to you can be certainly likely and probable for another.

You need to explain and prove how the below example is not possible

Atheist decides to try and become a Christian due to PW. He starts to go to church, pray, read the bible, fellowship and in doing so something resonates with him and he develops true belief and faith in God.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Wow, your lack of appreciation for doing what is right without consideration of rewards is noted. I guess that Christians are only in it for the Big Payoff.

Imagine someone who is asked to be kind towards others, and who then asks "Yeah, but what's in it for me?" Is that the right attitude?

That's Pascal's Wager in a nutshell.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Please don't add all Christian's into one group. If I had to drag people kicking and screaming into the faith, I would not be in it. People have value on their own and it doesn't depend on who you bend you knee too.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

You can call what I say just my opinion all you want in your attempt to justify this mockery of logic, but that too is your opinion. It is true that everyone is different, but to search for some higher power that can not be physically seen requires the individual to have something missing in his life that drives them to search elsewhere for answers and that is what searching for God is all about. You can't arbitrarily add this thirst to anyone no matter how much you want it to work.

Okay, so please tell how its possible you can know the outcome, mind, and heart of everyone in the past, present and future in addition to what is required for gaining faith in God? That would require some extraordinary supernatural powers of mind reading and God knows what else. Have you even gained faith in God yourself? I am seriously scratching my head here lol

 

[Eudaimonist]

Please don't add all Christian's into one group. If I had to drag people kicking and screaming into the faith, I would not be in it. People have value on their own and it doesn't depend on who you bend you knee too.

I'm just showing him where his logic leads. In any case, I changed the post.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Lets go over this again.



Sure I agree.



I am failing to see how this proves one one can only come to true belief from only certain factors.

True belief can come from any factor. Everyone is different. What seems unlikely or improbable to you can be certainly likely and probable for another.

You need to explain and prove how the below example is not possible

Atheist decides to try and become a Christian due to PW. He starts to go to church, pray, read the bible, fellowship and in doing so something resonates with him and he develops true belief and faith in God.

I don't need to explain or prove anything. I have met and discussed religion to far to many people to think that anyone could miraculously change the entire direction in their spiritual life from a whim. You put up a scenario here that does the shack and bake method of providing a timeline. You don't take into account anything other than the bare essentials.

Why would an Atheist, who is one because of what he perceives as factual truth and enters into a lifestyle that requires him to cast off all his inhibitions about religion and follow a bunch of people who he considers wacked out at the very least, because they go down on their knees and talk to someone that they claim is out there,,,,somewhere... and praise him for everything that they have toiled for, as If they hadn't taken an active part in procuring it?




What was I responding to when I wrote that. It was your response to me about the heart, mind and the soul. You said the heart can't feel and I said you misunderstand the terminology.

These posts follow and order of thought. One behind the other. You bring up points and I, in response address those points and make points of my own. This continues until we run out of points or one of us can't refute the points the other one has made.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

I'm just showing him where his logic leads. In any case, I changed the post.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I appreciate your efforts. This PW is nonsense to me and I'd like to apologize for those who can't seem to understand that fact. Thank you!

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

I don't need to explain or prove anything. I have met and discussed religion to far to many people to think that anyone could miraculously change the entire direction in their spiritual life from a whim. You put up a scenario here that does the shack and bake method of providing a timeline. You don't take into account anything other than the bare essentials.

You made an assertion. You need to back up that assertion. That is how things work. You meeting x amount of people does not prove anything. It is simply an event(s) that leads you to your opinion that people can not do x. As the only way for you to be correct is if you had supernatural powers of mind reading and seeing the past and future.

Why would an Atheist, who is one because of what he perceives as factual truth and enters into a lifestyle that requires him to cast off all his inhibitions about religion and follow a bunch of people who he considers wacked out at the very least, because they go down on their knees and talk to someone that they claim is out there,,,,somewhere... and praise him for everything that they have toiled for, as If they hadn't taken an active part in procuring it?

Why would anyone do anything? You are trying to think you know the thinkings of others or that everyone thinks a certain way you deem is rational or probable when clearly that is not how people work.