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[If Not For Grace]

"Do you think that by not giving direct opinions to questions that you are going to help someone"

I have an opinion on everything, but you may not share it. There are many ways to a spiritual life, sometimes it's best you learn for yourself and not be given the answers.

I hear impatience in you post. I can say "Go to Wal-Mart and get me some dog food". It makes me no difference if you drive, ride with a friend, or get someone else to do it as long as I get the dog food. I do not care if you write a check, pay cash or use a debit card. I do not care if you take the interstate, backroad or some combination of the two.

See I don't know where you are on your path--If you can not drive, you must first learn that. If you can not read/write then you may find it difficult to pay by check.

I do not know your stregnths, weaknesses, talents or pitfalls. How I might accomplish a task may not be feasible for you.

I make it a goal not to do for people, what they CAN do for themselves. It's the teach a man to fish rather than feed him theory.

I have even found that in dealing with God, the "teacher does not talk while the student is taking the test".

Sometimes direct is not best, especially when there are better sources (the Bible, God directly) to seek.

I can tell you what I believe--an the enemy will always contradict that. So
for some who are beneath/beyond my spiritual plane this may be too much for them.

It's like giving marital advice. I can tell you what I think, what I have experienced and share my hope.

PS. This post is only meant to offer possible explanations for people who sometimes do not answer as you would have them do.

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

I have an opinion on everything, but you may not share it. There are many ways to a spiritual life, sometimes it's best you learn for yourself and not be given the answers.

I hear impatience in you post. I can say "Go to Wal-Mart and get me some dog food". It makes me no difference if you drive, ride with a friend, or get someone else to do it as long as I get the dog food. I do not care if you write a check, pay cash or use a debit card. I do not care if you take the interstate, backroad or some combination of the two.

See I don't know where you are on your path--If you can not drive, you must first learn that. If you can not read/write then you may find it difficult to pay by check.

I do not know your stregnths, weaknesses, talents or pitfalls. How I might accomplish a task may not be feasible for you.

I make it a goal not to do for people, what they CAN do for themselves. It's the teach a man to fish rather than feed him theory.

I have even found that in dealing with God, the "teacher does not talk while the student is taking the test".

Sometimes direct is not best, especially when there are better sources (the Bible, God directly) to seek.

I can tell you what I believe--an the enemy will always contradict that. So
for some who are beneath/beyond my spiritual plane this may be too much for them.

It's like giving marital advice. I can tell you what I think, what I have experienced and share my hope.

PS. This post is only meant to offer possible explanations for people who sometimes do not answer as you would have them do.

Dyanm, thank you for taking the time to post this. I've been a little slow with responses, a few things going on in life that have slowed me down a little. Let me say that I agree with your post but one part of your post stood-out to me. About me being impatient. I just don't see that in any of my posts. My time here on the forum has shown an insane amount of patience. You would have to look back at my other threads to see that. The other part, I made the mistake in my first thread of using the word, "Answers" that is why I switched it to "opinions" for this thread. Heron posted right before this about me asking for opinions to help me, not answers. In one post I even said, "If I wanted definite answers do you think I would be asking people on the internet"?

I could say your P.S. shows sarcasm just like you have said my post shows impatience, maybe it is sarcasm but then again it may not be. If I wanted people to answer the way I wanted then I would say, "Don't answer this way" and would name off a 1,001 ways not to answer me. This has already been covered in other posts that if someone says they are having trouble relating the Bible to their life then why quote the Bible to them? Your post is very good about learning for yourself but on the other hand, did you ever think, "Non-Christians" are learning everyday when they see, "Christians" judge them? Maybe they are looking to see some good, something helpful from a, "Christian"? I thought with my first thread one word went unnoticed, I asked for, "help". Someone with bad intentions, wanting to dispute the Bible or Christianity would not ask Christians for help, agreed? I just asked for how Christianity helps their everyday life but the majority of the opinions were direct quotes from the Bible.

To me that showed that many knew the Bible but didn't know how it relates to their life. I keep repeating this, hoping that someone will see it, I asked for help. The example I used was, "If someone was falling over a cliff of a mountain and yelled for help. Would you go over and pull them up or stand there and tell them why they were falling over the cliff?" hopefully, you will understand that. I have found a number of members who have been very helpful to me, many through PMs but I also feel like I should in turn try to help some of the Christian members understand how to help Non-Christians. That has been my purpose all along. No one is better than anybody on here. To stop talking down, being sarcastic, being psychological, being psychic (knowing what my words mean or show). My day job is in Human Resources it is my job to listen to people's tone of voice on certain questions and try to figure out if they would be a good employee. It's the hardest part of my job and they are speaking. These are words with no noise coming from them so it would seem impossible to be able to say what a person means just by reading a word.

Thanks for your post, I do hope that you will read this and see my intentions.
Tim

 

[Christian_Victor]

I've asked a few questions in the last couple of weeks. My questions usually are not answered. Instead I received sermons. So my question for today is, "Do you think that by not giving direct opinions to questions that you are going to help someone?" I have read through some recent questions by "Littlelion" and a few others, "Analog" comes to mind. The answers to their questions are the same as the answers to my questions, even though the questions were different.

A non-believer asks questions and the most popular answer is, "become saved, admit your sins to God". Good answer for a believer but this is where we are losing the concept of someone being a, "non-believer". Telling a non-believer to not only all of a sudden believe but put their life in God's hand seems a little pretentious. A couple of really good answers that I did get were about a few books I should read, thanks to Radagast for those posts. Very interesting and helpful books.

Other posts to mine done nothing but make me question their reasoning. If someone says they are tired of being preached at then the obvious becomes not to preach at them. Preaching at you may work but the preach at a non-believer is bordering on not using common sense. There are too many preachers here not enough followers. You want to help a non-believer start by showing them compassion, the same compassion that Jesus showed. Accept that they probably have their reasons for not believing, the same way you have your reasons for believing.

The answers for non-believers are not in the Bible. The answers are from your, as a Christian, witness. Show them how Jesus can change their life not tell them what will happen if they don't accept Jesus. You may not believe that but I am telling you all what I have seen, not just with my life but with many others. You all, the Christian Members, are here to help the non-believers. Don't tell me you are here to help Christians because you wouldn't be in the, "non-Christian" section if that was true. This is where I end this with this thought.

Do you really think that a non-believer. One who doesn't believe the same way you do will understand a scripture from the Bible? A book they probably haven't read but that you have read and studied. It would be like going to Germany and speaking English and expecting someone to understand you. There is a shell around most of the posts on this section of the forum that says, "Fragile". This works for both sides but if someone is here asking questions, give them answers and try to be helpful not push them away.

Thanks

Yes, I really hate it when other Christians can't answer your question, so all they do is try to answer it by saying that you need to be "Saved".

Was the question about being Saved? NO IT WASN'T. So I think Saved shouldn't come to mind.

I know what you're talkiing about. I hate it when Christians, scratch that, ANYBODY pushes aside my questions.

Now, to answer your question: You don't give anybody an answer when you don't give a direct opinion. Some peopel here are "afraid" that if they give their true opinion to the question, other Christian will "get angry at them". Well I say WHO CARES? Who cares if someone get's angry at you because they disagree? That's their own fault if they are so ignorant like that.

So, to answer somebody's question, you need the direct opinion.


Also, here's a link to my post in "Why Jehovah? Why not Allah or Krishna?"

http://www.christianforums.com/t1586301-why-jehovah-why-not-allah-or-krishna.html&page=3

Scroll down to my first post on that page to see the post I'm talking about

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Yes, I really hate it when other Christians can't answer your question, so all they do is try to answer it by saying that you need to be "Saved".

Was the question about being Saved? NO IT WASN'T. So I think Saved shouldn't come to mind.

I know what you're talkiing about. I hate it when Christians, scratch that, ANYBODY pushes aside my questions.

Now, to answer your question: You don't give anybody an answer when you don't give a direct opinion. Some peopel here are "afraid" that if they give their true opinion to the question, other Christian will "get angry at them". Well I say WHO CARES? Who cares if someone get's angry at you because they disagree? That's their own fault if they are so ignorant like that.

So, to answer somebody's question, you need the direct opinion.

Agreed, Maxster touched on this even though I'm not for sure he meant to. I do like his drive though, impressive for his age. Agreed with the direct opinion part as well. I tried to make it more of direct question by adding, "direct". Make it more on a personal level. This is a really good post. The part about not worrying about what others think. We were discussing this on another thread, maybe even some on this one about how some Christians seem to be proving something with their answers, that goes into the holier than thou part. It would be nice wouldn't it? If we could discuss our beliefs, respect opinions by others and get along so to show we understand that we are strong enough in our beliefs that we don't get defensive when someone talks about their beliefs that are different. Better go but thanks for this post.

Tim

 

[Christian_Victor]

Agreed, Maxster touched on this even though I'm not for sure he meant to. I do like his drive though, impressive for his age. Agreed with the direct opinion part as well. I tried to make it more of direct question by adding, "direct". Make it more on a personal level. This is a really good post. The part about not worrying about what others think. We were discussing this on another thread, maybe even some on this one about how some Christians seem to be proving something with their answers, that goes into the holier than thou part. It would be nice wouldn't it? If we could discuss our beliefs, respect opinions by others and get along so to show we understand that we are strong enough in our beliefs that we don't get defensive when someone talks about their beliefs that are different. Better go but thanks for this post.

Tim

No problem for the post.

And yes, it would be good if we can discuss our true opinions without somebody saying "You'll go to Hell for that"

Yes, I will go to Hell for that. Thank you for telling me that. I love to go to Hell because I have an opinion.

 

[LittleLion]

elizabethevangeline,



Why haven't we met earlier?

There's a book written by a Wheaton College prof called The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. I haven't read it yet but this website reviews it thoroughly:
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues...es/scandal.html

I'll try to get it. (Am in Central Europe, might be hard, but.)

Sadly, simple is enough for many. The Gospel is simple, but communicating it well is not, neither is the Christian Life nor understanding God.

Exactly!
So some people who explain it resort to logical patch.ups, which then renders Christianity to be nothing but superstition!

I personally started reading Orthodox theology and realized that I've been content with trite answers and that I've been very gnostic.

All that to say...your assessment is right on LittleLion! You nailed it! So keep asking questions, take answers with a grain of salt, read some good theology. CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia is full of good theology (I'm not kidding!). I would also recommend Timothy (Kallistos) Ware's The Orthodox Way for a deep intro to what the ancient church has always taught.

You truly are a godsend! That is, you have this something that shows right away in the way you speak.
Grand.

I'm so glad you're here.

 

[LittleLion]

Your post is very good about learning for yourself but on the other hand, did you ever think, "Non-Christians" are learning everyday when they see, "Christians" judge them? Maybe they are looking to see some good, something helpful from a, "Christian"?

Sometimes, I don't know what on earth is going on!

I ask a question, and they feel under attack or insulted; take up a defensive mode -- and then you can imagine that the discussion will not be productive.

But there is an explanation for this defensive mode: The Gospel is simple, but explaining it is not. One can wish all one wants for the Holy Spirit to guide one, but if one hasn't studied ALL the scripture carefully and memorized most of it, if one has not trained oneself in informal logics -- one should better stay away from explaining things.

I have found a number of members who have been very helpful to me, many through PMs but I also feel like I should in turn try to help some of the Christian members understand how to help Non-Christians. That has been my purpose all along.

Exactly.

In doing so myself, trying to "get the best out of a Christian", I have been accused of self-righteousness.

I understand that people are very attached to their beliefs, and so anyone challenging them (an no ulterior motives are needed, just an honest lack of knowledge or experience) is also challenging that attachment -- hence the defensive mode.

But then, out of all this, I came to wonder: People would die for their beliefs, but they are offended if someone challenges them?

 

[Radagast]

... People would die for their beliefs, but they are offended if someone challenges them?

Yeah... It is true we could do with a bit more patience here sometimes. But hey, we're not perfect...

-- Radagast

 

[heron]

We are also overwhelmed with the amount of information we could give in so little space, with so little knowledge about each others' backgrounds. (dyanm's "I do not know your strengths, weaknesses, talents or pitfalls," LL's "The Gospel is simple, but explaining it is not.")

One explanation--many of us are geared for the highest speed our human bodies can handle these days, and we work in an arena where quick decisions get the job done quickly. We are more goal-oriented, more loaded with information, and less patient that the generation before us.

When the gospels were written, people used to leave what they were doing, and follow Jesus around all day to listen to his teachings. One time, a group of thousands had followed him into the desert wilderness, when suddenly his disciples remembered that no one had brought a lunch.

Imagine thousands of people today, listening when they hadn't signed up for a conference, spending the whole day when they weren't getting CEU credits for it, not bringing their cell phones so they couldn't order lunchbox deliveries.

Expecting complete and immediate answers on the forum just isn't going to happen. Gaining insights in bits and pieces from each other throughout the week--that is the forum.

Maybe it will help if people give pertinent background when they ask a question. I've seen two extremes: a minimal post, "What makes a Christian business?" where people didn't know where to start answering; and another post of a woman who asked if divorce was religiously permissible, but gave too much personal detail and ended up with a random critique of her life rather than scriptural references...ending up in a more painful place that she already was.

The other weakness in responses that I see, is expecting newcomers to know everything. First-time posters have been told that they posted in the wrong place, due to topic or their religious status. They probably hadn't even read about the site more than five minutes.

We have all heard that our words appear differently on email than in person. I think that some of us just aren't proofing our comments to make sure they don't appear offensive.

"Don't have time"...the slogan of the 2000's.






​

 

[Eagle_Wings]

To me that showed that many knew the Bible but didn't know how it relates to their life.

It's so sad how true this is! I teach the adults Bible Study class on Wednesday nights and right now we are working through "Life Principles from Old Testamant Kings" and they'll be asked a question based on some verses that we just read and 9 times out of 10 someone will just read the scripture back to me...instead of putting it in their own words and then applying it to themselves. Some nights it's like pulling teeth to get anywhere! I think the main reason that a lot of Christians love to quote the scriptures all the time without giving any real-life application is because to do so would require that person to change. They would see that they don't have it all together, face it- nobody has it all together, they would begin to see truths about God and themselves that they don't want to acknowledge. ( starting to preach...I'll stop now!)

As for giving definite, clear cut answers, one of the hardest things about discussing anything, whether online or even face to face is the English language. One word can have many different meanings and implications and the way I meant the word might not be the way you undertsood the word which totally changes the conversation. I usually try to be very careful when choosing my words, especially online, in an effort to ensure that what I say isn't taken the wrong way. Words, themselves can also lend tone to the conversation...not as clearly as voice pitch and facial expressions, but different words can set different tones. Of course, what ultimately sets the tone is the reader's preconcieved ideas, whether it's about the poster or the topic being discussed. Unfortunately, that can only be controlled by the reader, no matter how clear or non-offensive the poster tries to be.

*end rant*

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Yeah... It is true we could do with a bit more patience here sometimes. But hey, we're not perfect...

-- Radagast

Radagast, loved the book, very interesting and helpful. Have plans to look into more books by the same author. Just a short opinion on the last part of your post. Non-believers are not perfect either. Thanks Radagast

Tim

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Why haven't we met earlier?

I usually hang out it The Ancient Way forum. I am in a place of transition so don't feel very qualified to explain my faith...I don't think I'm protestant anymore, but not yet Orthodox.

Exactly!
So some people who explain it resort to logical patch.ups, which then renders Christianity to be nothing but superstition!

One thing I noticed in the last couple of years, in the U.S. we have great Christain bookstores with access to all kinds of information. We gooble up the latest "top 10" sellers, without discerning that some of these favorite authors come from very diverse and sometimes conflicting theological assumptions. It produces a patchwork quilt theology and I found it a struggle to reconcile all the points of doctrine I was supposed to believe.

Since looking into Orthodoxy, I found that theology can be much more cohesive than I thought possible. We don't actually have to know all the details to have a rich experience of God, the gospel is straightforward. But for those of us who need to explain everything, Orthodoxy offers intellectual depth balanced with mystery, not everything can be explained...it's a relief to me to be able to say "I don't know"!. Sorry if that sounds like a sales pitch!

You truly are a godsend! That is, you have this something that shows right away in the way you speak.
Grand.

I'm so glad you're here.

Wow. Thanks. I try to listen carefully.

You mentioned Central Europe. Your english is very good, so is english your primary language? (IOW "where you from?" )

Feel free to PM anytime.

 

[Christian_Victor]

Tim, it is as you wish... you are back on "ignore"...

I won't "pamper" you as others will...you violated the rules in your first postings and then blame me because things didn't go your way.

As for this...

http://www.christianforums.com/t1151579-ga-forum-banplease-read.html

Yes.. please read and heed the posting... ignorance is not excused on Christian forums... Each forum has it's own additional set of rules and it is best to read the forum rules BEFORE posting so there are no misunderstandings.

When you become a Christian, remember... "forgive and forget" all those who have transgressed you in this lifetime.

and Tim, one more thing you need to learn before you post more... that ignore button can be used both ways.


~have a good one~

You say he's "Ignorent" and that you won't "Pamper" him like others do.

Nobody "Pampers" him. What they actually do is respect him, which I see none of in your post.

You say that Christians Forgive and Forget. Christians also respect, and you show no respect in this post. Just because he has a different opinion is no need to show no respect and ignore him because you have no answer.

 

[dllewis1958]

Thank you Tim for opening our eyes as Christians. We sometimes get to a point in our Christian walk that we think we are always right on our beliefs and sometimes we try and push them on non-believers..that is not the way to win a non-believer to Christ. When non-believers have questions we need to be open and honest and give our opinion..sometimes it does not require quoting scripture because non-believers do not believe in the scriptures anyway..we as christians should give our testimony of our lives after all Christ is in us and Christ should show through us..I am reminded of these words from Jesus..He who is without sin cast the first stone..we all sin, non of us are perfect..God commands us to Love one another and that also means to respect one another..

God Bless You,

Diane