New question

[TheTruthinFiction]

I've asked a few questions in the last couple of weeks. My questions usually are not answered. Instead I received sermons. So my question for today is, "Do you think that by not giving direct opinions to questions that you are going to help someone?" I have read through some recent questions by "Littlelion" and a few others, "Analog" comes to mind. The answers to their questions are the same as the answers to my questions, even though the questions were different.

A non-believer asks questions and the most popular answer is, "become saved, admit your sins to God". Good answer for a believer but this is where we are losing the concept of someone being a, "non-believer". Telling a non-believer to not only all of a sudden believe but put their life in God's hand seems a little pretentious. A couple of really good answers that I did get were about a few books I should read, thanks to Radagast for those posts. Very interesting and helpful books.

Other posts to mine done nothing but make me question their reasoning. If someone says they are tired of being preached at then the obvious becomes not to preach at them. Preaching at you may work but the preach at a non-believer is bordering on not using common sense. There are too many preachers here not enough followers. You want to help a non-believer start by showing them compassion, the same compassion that Jesus showed. Accept that they probably have their reasons for not believing, the same way you have your reasons for believing.

The answers for non-believers are not in the Bible. The answers are from your, as a Christian, witness. Show them how Jesus can change their life not tell them what will happen if they don't accept Jesus. You may not believe that but I am telling you all what I have seen, not just with my life but with many others. You all, the Christian Members, are here to help the non-believers. Don't tell me you are here to help Christians because you wouldn't be in the, "non-Christian" section if that was true. This is where I end this with this thought.

Do you really think that a non-believer. One who doesn't believe the same way you do will understand a scripture from the Bible? A book they probably haven't read but that you have read and studied. It would be like going to Germany and speaking English and expecting someone to understand you. There is a shell around most of the posts on this section of the forum that says, "Fragile". This works for both sides but if someone is here asking questions, give them answers and try to be helpful not push them away.

Thanks

 

[wayfaring man]

Personally ,

I welcome your opinion , even though , I don't entirely agree .

There are people who gave their lives for the sake of translating The Bible into " the language of the common people " . So that we , who aren't scholars , can understand what is written therein .

Furthermore , through the efforts of many , it has been translated into every major language in the world .

Yes , The Bible is sometimes quoted without the proper thoughtfulness or sensativity .

But it would be foolhardy to abandon referring to It , because it is sometimes improperly applied . It makes more sense to abandon the thoughtlessness instead !

I myself , ( and I'm not alone in this ) , was first introduced to The Saving Faith of Jesus Christ , by reading and thinking on the words of The Bible , in the absence of others .

The way I'm normally led to witness is to express from both personal experience / understanding and with corroborating quotes of Scripture .

If you were to make it clear to me that quoting the Bible offends you , I'd likely refrain from quoting it to you ; but would still continue to express the inspired instructions and principles contained therein . And if you were disinterested in those things as well , I'd move on ... there's plenty of other people who may well appreciate my gift / labors .

John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven . <-----> John 3:27

Scripture is an extremely valuable tool / weapon which we are counselled to learn to handle and apply to every aspect of our life , our being .

That same Sword which may have smacked you in the face , when held by a inexperienced " wanna be " , can be a life-saving surgical instument , which separates us from deadly , spiritually defiling " cancers " of deceit and disbelief .

May The Lord be Pleased To Bless .

wm

 

[novcncy]

I've asked a few questions in the last couple of weeks. My questions usually are not answered. Instead I received sermons. So my question for today is, "Do you think that by not giving direct opinions to questions that you are going to help someone?"

Actually, I should think an answer is a direct as possible. I think there's a flaw in your logic. You ask someone, a Christian, a question. This Christian tells you up front that they believe the Bible to be the literal word of God, and that as such is their guide in every aspect of their life. They will not attempt to change the meaning of the Bible to fit their thinking, but will attempt to change their thinking to fit the meaning of the Bible. They admit that this is faith; faith that an omnipotent, omniscient, onmipresent God is capable of encapsulating His word in a book, and then preserving it so that any man can read it to find out God's opinion on any subject. So all of this is a given, both the Christian's faith, and his source of authority. In fact, you knew it before you asked the question.

Then, you ask them to answer a question, without referring to the Bible! Did you forget about the given? That's what the Christian bases (or should base) every opinion on, the word of God! So you are asking him to answer a question without utilizing his orientation or authority. It's like asking a astronomer to work without his telescope or mathematics...the foundational tools of his work.

It's fine if you don't want to believe, and please, fell free to talk about any topic you wish. But it may be a little naive and unrealistic to expect a dialogue with Christians wherein they do not refer to the Bible. If they didn't rely on the Bible, they wouldn't be Christians, and this would be any other bulletin board.

I'm going to look at your other posts, and see what your points are. I will attempt to refrain from preaching, but I cannot refrain completely from referring to God's word.

Take care, and I hope we can get a dialogue going on your questions that you percieve as topical.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I've asked a few questions in the last couple of weeks. My questions usually are not answered. Instead I received sermons. So my question for today is, "Do you think that by not giving direct opinions to questions that you are going to help someone?" I have read through some recent questions by "Littlelion" and a few others, "Analog" comes to mind. The answers to their questions are the same as the answers to my questions, even though the questions were different.

A non-believer asks questions and the most popular answer is, "become saved, admit your sins to God". Good answer for a believer but this is where we are losing the concept of someone being a, "non-believer". Telling a non-believer to not only all of a sudden believe but put their life in God's hand seems a little pretentious. A couple of really good answers that I did get were about a few books I should read, thanks to Radagast for those posts. Very interesting and helpful books.

Other posts to mine done nothing but make me question their reasoning. If someone says they are tired of being preached at then the obvious becomes not to preach at them. Preaching at you may work but the preach at a non-believer is bordering on not using common sense. There are too many preachers here not enough followers. You want to help a non-believer start by showing them compassion, the same compassion that Jesus showed. Accept that they probably have their reasons for not believing, the same way you have your reasons for believing.

The answers for non-believers are not in the Bible. The answers are from your, as a Christian, witness. Show them how Jesus can change their life not tell them what will happen if they don't accept Jesus. You may not believe that but I am telling you all what I have seen, not just with my life but with many others. You all, the Christian Members, are here to help the non-believers. Don't tell me you are here to help Christians because you wouldn't be in the, "non-Christian" section if that was true. This is where I end this with this thought.

Do you really think that a non-believer. One who doesn't believe the same way you do will understand a scripture from the Bible? A book they probably haven't read but that you have read and studied. It would be like going to Germany and speaking English and expecting someone to understand you. There is a shell around most of the posts on this section of the forum that says, "Fragile". This works for both sides but if someone is here asking questions, give them answers and try to be helpful not push them away.

Thanks

Your post should be reqiured reading for all christians, I hope many read it. You know more about God than you think you know. I don't tread this forum usually, because I know preaching a sermon does not help geraly, I can't tell you what God can do for you, because the grace He gives you might be in a diffrent form than the grace He gives me. What I can do is pray, and trust my Father, He has never let me down. If you would like to just talk, ask questions, or if you just need a friend, please PM me I would be glad to get to know you and what you do believe.

God bless you.
Love much, me.

 

[Tavita]

Did you actually say you were tired of being preached at, and having scripture given you? If not then you can't point the finger to those who have honestly tried to help you as best they can. Even though I can see your point in not wanting to hear scripture, do you want to hear what man says or what God says? There were a couple of people Jesus used scripture with, most times His disciples, but when talking to people He was always direct and to the point and challenged the beliefs they already held.

When I was a non-believer, I used to read the bible a lot, even though I could hardly understand a word. So I asked this God who I didn't know, to show me, and show me He did.

Please just understand that as christians we are compelled to answer from the knowedge and truth we have been shown in His word, the Bible, and if you have ventured into a forum for people to ask questions of christians about christianity, then you should expect non other.

 

[Sketcher]

There's a time when you're right and a time when you're wrong. A Christian can be overzealous and not really listen to the question or the need, but other times, we are saying exactly what you need to hear. Not only that, the answers to some questions are very complex and if you really want an answer, you'll have to sit through a sermon. Scripture is where we get our answers from, and when you want an answer, that is the natural thing for us to do.

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Did you actually say you were tired of being preached at, and having scripture given you? If not then you can't point the finger to those who have honestly tried to help you as best they can. Even though I can see your point in not wanting to hear scripture, do you want to hear what man says or what God says? There were a couple of people Jesus used scripture with, most times His disciples, but when talking to people He was always direct and to the point and challenged the beliefs they already held.

When I was a non-believer, I used to read the bible a lot, even though I could hardly understand a word. So I asked this God who I didn't know, to show me, and show me He did.

Please just understand that as christians we are compelled to answer from the knowedge and truth we have been shown in His word, the Bible, and if you have ventured into a forum for people to ask questions of christians about christianity, then you should expect non other.

Ok, this will be short. First thank you for replying. In my questions, I ask for, "opinion". I'm told by another post that Christians base all opinions they make on the Bible. Here we go again. If I am not a believer as you all are than what good does quoting the Bible do? If I pulled out a, "Book of Shadows" belonging to a Wiccan and read from it, would you listen? Didn't think so. My point being, as a human, is it not possible to answer a simple question without screaming, "sinner" at me? Some of you have and I appreciate that. One day I will post a link to my website to let you all read and understand. Until then, I am looking for opinions not statements that say, "the truth".

I understand and completely agree that Christians are more than likely going to throw the Bible at me when I ask questions. Here is where I asked Christians to understand that that does not work for a non-believer. I've said it before, I believe in Jesus, I talk to him sometimes but my problem seems to be with the attitudes of some Christians. Everything is too one-sided, you want me to hear your words but you don't listen to mine. I was told by a member of this forum that my posts had made him/her decide to look into the actual word, meaning, of Christian. After telling me that, I decided to look into some of the scriptures they had posted to me. This is about being fair to both sides. I'm rambling which means it is time to eat, Ha. Thanks

 

[Tavita]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you really want. If you don't want a christian answer, then why come here to ask? Why not go to apologetics or something, and ask those of all other persuations. Of course a christian is going to answer you from the bible, it's been built into their lives. Scripture goes into and lives in the heart, and that's where it comes from when they answer you. It's the perspective they see things from.
It's like you want a christian answer, but you don't want a christian answer..

BTW... I hope you're enjoying this... no sermons and no scripture.

 

[dllewis1958]

Tim,

Just when I thought I had you all figured out..you go and throw a curve ball..lol I must not be getting it today..Tim what exactly are you asking???? Tell Cami Hi!!!!

Diane

 

[Tavita]

I THINK I get it... you don't want to be answered in the typical christian language. The new language we pick up when we become christians. You don't want the use of christian 'cliches', church speak, and scripture. You'd like the 'interpreted' scriptures given to you in every day non christian words. Am I on the right track? If so, it's a difficult call for christians, but I think, one we should really look at.

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Tim,

Just when I thought I had you all figured out..you go and throw a curve ball..lol I must not be getting it today..Tim what exactly are you asking???? Tell Cami Hi!!!!

Diane

Hi Diane, I'm trying to get people to understand that we are all humans lol. It just doesn't seem to work, no matter how hard I try, they don't listen. It's such a broad spectrum that I am trying to touch on here that I am missing it. We are people, created by the same God, if one asks a question that they don't understand then I would expect the group to say, "Okay, here is my opinion" but I don't usually get that. I am told to go ask the other religious groups. No way, they are believing in hocus pocus hoodoo voodoo junk. I'm still not over being told to throw my Buddha statue away. Buddha was a good man, not a God but I can't get anyone to listen to this.

I don't pray to said Buddha statue. Just have him standing there in a fountain. It's reaching a level of silliness for me to try and get answers. For one thing, I'm looked at as some angry teenager who thinks they hate God and wants to argue but nope, just looking for opinions on how Christians feel about whatever I ask. Trying to fit in, you know? It's in me to make others think but most of the people here don't want to think, it would take away from their sarcasm towards non-believers if they done that. Including sarcasm towards me for not believing exactly the way they do. Do I need to throw a hissy-fit lol?

It seems so hard for anyone to show tolerance for anything that is not what they believe or have been taught. I try to explain, I wasn't taught that way that is why I ask you questions but nope, still didn't work. I use a word, "Non-believers" soon I am a non-believer to everyone reading my post. I use a word, "Christians" soon I am talking about EVERY Christian. No, no, no lol. For instance, one person that has got through to me about Christianity is Max Cavalera, lead singer of Soulfly. A brutal heavy metal band from Brazil. This man puts scriptures on his cd cover but is not accepted by most Christians because he uses four letter words. It's like there is this blur of reality that I cannot seem to find a way to focus. The man's stepson was murdered, so yeah he has some anger but it doesn't make him any less Christian. It is in the Bible to not take God's name in vain which I have not heard him do ever. So it would seem that someone else has come up with this idea that there are 15 other words you are not supposed to say. See what I mean?

*hissy fit warning* First of all, seeing someone 6 foot, weighing 230 pounds throw a hissy fit is not a pretty sight. Here it comes, too many people have changed the words of the Bible to fit their lives. Too make themselves look better while in turn showing what a terrible person someone else is. Jesus didn't do that. Yes, you are humans so you make mistakes but the question becomes do you continue to make the same mistakes over and over just because they think it shows what a good Christian they are? I ask for opinions, I am hit with scriptures and sent to live with Satan. Now if someone does this once, twice, three times even, ok but eventually that mistake becomes some sort of self-justification in your own beliefs, "I am better than that. I would never say a four letter word. See how holy and righteous I am? Ok so no one seen it that time. I will try it again" Ahhhhh, forget it. I give up, oh and Diane thanks for being nice and helping and Cami says nothing she just watched a 6 foot 230 pound man throw a hissy fit. HA HA just kidding see says hi.

Thanks

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

I THINK I get it... you don't want to be answered in the typical christian language. The new language we pick up when we become christians. You don't want the use of christian 'cliches', church speak, and scripture. You'd like the 'interpreted' scriptures given to you in every day non christian words. Am I on the right track? If so, it's a difficult call for christians, but I think, one we should really look at.

Hey, hey, hey, you are getting it, thank you. By the way, thanks for getting the Men at Work song stuck in my head. What I have trouble with is the twisting of the Bible. I explained that during my hissy fit on another post. So many people will take the words and apply them to their own life even though it's obvious the words do not mean what they are taking them as, make sense, probably not. In saying that, I ask for opinions. Why would anyone go to Hell was one of my questions. It was a simple question. One that could have been answered in a few words by someone's own opinion but I didn't get that. I think that thread had over or around 40 replies to it but none answered the question without directly quoting the Bible.

It would be like this. If you walked up to a doctor and asked him, 'Why do I have high blood pressure". Doctor would then say, "Because you eat too much pork" or whatever his opinion is. We would say, "ok, no more pork" but if the Doctor said, "Well what is happening is that you are eating food that is high in sodium so it causing your hypertension to be a problem. During this problem if you will excrete the excess sodium as waste but until you rid your bloodstream of the sodium-rich products you will continue to struggle with hypertension". By this time, I am shaking old Doc saying, "What are you saying?" See what I mean? I honestly come here to try and help others and myself but it does seem like no one listens.

In my questions, I ask for opinions to help me understand but I also ask for those opinions to make some of the people here, think. To me a Christian would become a stronger Christian if they actually thought about an opinion than just quoting the Bible. Maybe I am wrong but just trying to help.

 

[dllewis1958]

Well Tim all married woman would agree with this statement that I am about to make..All Men are Big Babies so you throwing a hissy fit is not a surprise to me..lol

I can understand totally what you are saying now..thanks for being a bit more clearer..lol I really do not like throwing out scriptures to people..because a non-believer wouldn't know if you were saying scripture to him or making it up...I try to give my opinion the best that I can. Sometimes it is really hard to write down in words what you are trying to say.

I have to say to you AMEN on the part about people changing the words of the bible to fit their life. That is so true. People will read a scripture key word "A"..not the whole chapter..not the whole book..but "A" scripture and say this is what it means..in reality it doesn't mean that at all...Like for instance the scripture about Jesus turning water into wine..oh so that means it's ok to drink because Jesus turned the water into Wine..now come on...I think it takes longer to ferment..lol Wine in those days was grape juice..but anyway that's just an example...

The Buddah thing got to me also..I really hope that you follow my advice on that one though....think about it ok...Yes I gave you my opinion on that and yes I did tell you to go talk with your pastor..only because your pastor needs to know what this person said to you. The pastor needs to know that someone in his flock is running people out just by saying something stupid like that..Let me put it this way..if you leave that church and you never go back to church again and if you never live your life for Christ again over what that person said to you..guess what your blood is on that person's hands..they will be judged by God for what they said and did....ok..sure they may deserve it but you don't deserve to leave a church that you apparently liked over something somebody said..So my turn for a hissy fit and guess what woman are allowed. (especially menopausal woman)...lol Go back to that church, walk in there with your head held high, sit down and forget what that person said..they were ignorant..and like you said we are human..that so called Christian is human..and they made a big mistake...let it go..

I heard something really cute at Church Sunday night...and I just gotta share it with someone..The visiting minister said Hey give God a try if you don't like it don't worry Satan will take you back..I am still laughing over that..lol Anyway, Tim I gave you my opinion...I did not throw any scripture at you...did I pass..lol

Diane

 

[Tavita]

Okay. How would I answer your question "Why would anyone go to hell?"... because if the same Holy Spirit that was in Jesus is not in you, then God can't raise you from the dead and stop you going to hell. Or, because we've sinned against God by not obeying His commandments and haven't accepted the blood sacrifice of Jesus to clean us from sin, then we'll end up in hell because God can't allow sin into heaven.

Now, you would say that's christian speak... but how in the world am I gonna tell you that any differently? Tell me how I could answer that any other way.

 

[TheTruthinFiction]

Okay. How would I answer your question "Why would anyone go to hell?"... because if the same Holy Spirit that was in Jesus is not in you, then God can't raise you from the dead and stop you going to hell. Or, because we've sinned against God by not obeying His commandments and haven't accepted the blood sacrifice of Jesus to clean us from sin, then we'll end up in hell because God can't allow sin into heaven.

Now, you would say that's christian speak... but how in the world am I gonna tell you that any differently? Tell me how I could answer that any other way.

Nope, I would say thank you for your opinion. There is no scripture in your post. It may have come from scripture but, believe it or not, your post just opened my eyes to a few things. I asked that same question but was completely frustrated with most of the answers. On to your answer

You just explained to me why I need the Holy Spirit in me. Before I had no clue. Then with one sentence you said that I could not be lifted to Heaven without it, great answer. You may not believe this but I have never heard that. I've been told I'm sinner, which I already knew. Been told I need to seek forgiveness for my sins, which I already knew but never had someone use words like these, that made it that simple. Without the Spirit, a person couldn't fly to Heaven, right? (I would take this as not, "having wings" without the spirit) Thank you, then you gave me the reason that I need to ask for forgiveness of these sins. Because I cannot get into Heaven with sins, which would make me dirty, right? Now I am understanding. Do you know that this post that you expected me not to accept may be the greatest explanation that I have ever received? Thank you Tavita, I'm really bad at overcomplicating things. What you just done was made it simpler for me to understand, to even be able to picture a body without the Spirit not being able to go to Heaven. Thanks again

 

[Tavita]

Well Tim, is it? Thanks for that, now I know what would help non-believers. Youv'e just helped me and hopefully, others, to gain understanding. Good on you

But, one last thing... we also need the Holy Spirit to HELP us live by God's commandments, and to do the things we humans find that we can't do on our own, like, follow His commandments, do the work for Him that He wants us to do (not what we want), to speak to us in our hearts and minds and show us how to live. Hope that helps too. There's much more that could be said.

 

[heron]

"Your post should be required reading for all Christians"


We've collected some data. Inquisitive minds don't respond well to:

• quotes from sources not yet respected (building logic on unaccepted logic)
• clichés, terminology without explanation
  
• put-downs and blunt statements like "you're wrong"
  
• smug answers and condescension
• requests to jump off a cliff with no wings
  
• pushes into blind corners

Have we explained why one would want to live this life? If you've read Tim's past posts, you found plenty of quick you-should-do-it-then answers. Has anyone talked about the joys in their lives? The times that God has helped them? The emotional and physical healing they've received? The mercy over life gone wrong? The power you've felt flow through you when you're with someone in need?

I've seen some wonderful answers on other threads, but Tim seems to be a magnet for competition. Sorry, Tim.

The good news is about freedom, about mercy, about God's care for us that he would go to extreme lengths to make us one with Him.


"I will rejoice in doing them good, and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul." Jer. 32:41 Ha! I quoted scriptures.

 

[heron]

Talking about heaven and hell--

We rented the video of What Dreams May Come this week. (Robin Williams in a serious role, Cuba Gooding in 1998, Annabella Sciorra.) It's certainly not a religiously-correct version of heaven and hell, but leads the viewer through some of the thought processes about choice and loss and fairness.

It's a very depressing movie, and is probably more gory than you want to watch with your kids.

 

[heron]

P.S. Their dog made it to heaven.

 

[LittleLion]

heron,

We've collected some data. Inquisitive minds don't respond well to:

quotes from sources not yet respected (building logic on unaccepted logic)

clichés, terminology without explanation

put-downs and blunt statements like "you're wrong"

smug answers and condescension

requests to jump off a cliff with no wings

pushes into blind corners

I love this! I'll put it in my Practical Handibook!


* * *


I feel with TheTruthInFiction.
Religion is often explained in terms that are incomprehensibly abstract to me. I have not the least problem with quoting Scripture, in fact, I often demand biblical support for this or that claim.

Yet so many things are so abstract. So I ask a lot of questions -- you've probably noticed this. The thing is though that many religionists are not used to this kind of discussion, to such "inquisition". Some probably even think that I am asking all those questions out of spite or joke.

For example, acknowledging God's authority over oneself. Christians take that for granted. A non-Christian, however, has to first figure out why, and how to acknowledge God's authority over herself -- as all further inquiry about God is rather pointless and theoretical unless one first acknowledges God's authority over oneself.


And there is a blank wall in front of me ...

To acknowledge God'a authority over myself, I would first have to have reason to do so. I can't just give God authority, without having any idea what God is like, and without having any evidence that God is what the Bible says He is like.

I'd first need some grounds upon which I could say that the teachings of the Bible apply to *me*; I would need some grounds upon which I could recognize God's work, distinctly recognize it is His work indeed. And that work would have to be in *my* life, true for *me*, if I am to believe.

But how?

It takes a believer to know God? But one first has to know God in order to become a believer?