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New Jerusalem?

Quasar92

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Same wearisome cultic modernist bilge and bunkum, originating in the "doctrine of ignorance".

In case you missed it, which you did, your own article acknowledges that John Walvoord, who appears in your "esteemed theologians" list, rejects apostasia as rapture.

Add him to the "esteemed theologians" I previously supplied from your list, who shouldn't be there.


Your meaningless opinion without a shred of support to deny the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church is a study in futility. A problem that nothing you post will ever negate. Including your insulting remarks. Which is the common denominator for those who try arguing their views from empty wagons, who are then left with only one recourse, to attack their opponent personally. You've had my last reply to your ongoing attempts to alter the meaning of the Scriptures, on this subject!


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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Your meaningless opinion without a shred of support to deny the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church is a study in futility. A problem that nothing you post will ever negate. Including your insulting remarks. Which is the common denominator for those who try arguing their views from empty wagons, who are then left with only one recourse, to attack their opponent personally. You've had my last reply to your ongoing attempts to alter the meaning of the Scriptures, on this subject!


Quasar92

 
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jgr

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Your meaningless opinion without a shred of support to deny the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church is a study in futility. A problem that nothing you post will ever negate. Including your insulting remarks. Which is the common denominator for those who try arguing their views from empty wagons, who are then left with only one recourse, to attack their opponent personally. You've had my last reply to your ongoing attempts to alter the meaning of the Scriptures, on this subject!


Quasar92
You've accused me (and others) numerous times of calling God, His Son, and His twelve disciples, liars. I have never stooped to the same level of debased rhetoric in return.

But I will never hesitate to defend the historic prophetic faith of the saints from any attack upon it.

Which is what I've been doing, and will continue to do.
 
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Truth7t7

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Show me in any Scripturally supported way, the teachings of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:12-16 and in 2 Thess.2:1-9 contains a single particle inferring those teachings pertain to an apostasy.falling away, instead of what it is about, a rapture of the Church!

Dr.Ice is far from the only esteemed theologian who interpret the Greek term, "apostasia,"as "departure." Below is a list of others who do, as well:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Tell me how your 1499 Geneva Bible translated 2 Thess.2:3!

FROM ANOTHER SOURCE:

2 Thes. 2:3, Falling Away Or Departure? – Grace thru faith


Quasar92
Your list is a fraud Quasar, C.I. Scofield taught "Apostasia" was the apostasy of the professing church.

Quasar you have misrepresented this truth, to promote the false teaching of "Departure" being a secret rapture.

1917 Scofield Reference Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:3

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time 2 Thessalonians 2:7

(2) the apostasy of the professing church 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Luke 18:8 ; 2 Timothy 3:1-8 .
 
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jgr

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Your list is a fraud Quasar, C.I. Scofield taught "Apostasia" was the apostasy of the professing church.

Quasar you have misrepresented this truth, to promote the false teaching of "Departure" being a secret rapture.

1917 Scofield Reference Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:3

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time 2 Thessalonians 2:7

(2) the apostasy of the professing church 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Luke 18:8 ; 2 Timothy 3:1-8 .
You can add Missler, Stanley, McClain, Walvoord, and Darby to that list.

I in fact would not be at all surprised to find that a majority of those in his list reject the fallacy.
 
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Quasar92

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You've accused me (and others) numerous times of calling God, His Son, and His twelve disciples, liars. I have never stooped to the same level of debased rhetoric in return.

But I will never hesitate to defend the historic prophetic faith of the saints from any attack upon it.

Which is what I've been doing, and will continue to do.


Really! Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul all teach the pre-tribulation of the Church, which you deny. Is that not a correct statement? Then it is the same as calling them liars! Is that not also correct! As posted below:

?https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dee...g-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Your list is a fraud Quasar, C.I. Scofield taught "Apostasia" was the apostasy of the professing church.

Quasar you have misrepresented this truth, to promote the false teaching of "Departure" being a secret rapture.

1917 Scofield Reference Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:3

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time 2 Thessalonians 2:7

(2) the apostasy of the professing church 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Luke 18:8 ; 2 Timothy 3:1-8 .


My posts 161, 164, 165,m 168 and 174 prove you to be the fraud. Let me see you try proving your false claims! 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8 teach a rapture of the Church and have nothing whatever to do with OTHER Scriptures that refer to am apostasy of the Church!


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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Really! Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul all teach the pre-tribulation of the Church, which you deny. Is that not a correct statement? Then it is the same as calling them liars! Is that not also correct! As posted below:

?https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dee...g-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92
You effectively label the cited Church Fathers, Reformers, English Bible translators, et al; as fools or liars for accurately recognizing 2 Thess. 2:3 as apostasy rather than rapture.

Is that not a correct statement?
 
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Quasar92

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You effectively label the cited Church Fathers, Reformers, English Bible translators, et al; as fools or liars for accurately recognizing 2 Thess. 2:3 as apostasy rather than rapture.

Is that not a correct statement?


No! It is a false statement! As I have made crystal clear in many places on this suite, 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8, are Paul's teachings about he pre-trib rapture of the Church. Your assessment of my views are like they are from the Scriptures you interpret!


Quasar92
 
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Truth7t7

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My posts 161, 164, 165,m 168 and 174 prove you to be the fraud. Let me see you try proving your false claims! 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8 teach a rapture of the Church and have nothing whatever to do with OTHER Scriptures that do!


Quasar92
100% a fraud, read it again!

Show me in any Scripturally supported way, the teachings of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:12-16 and in 2 Thess.2:1-9 contains a single particle inferring those teachings pertain to an apostasy.falling away, instead of what it is about, a rapture of the Church!

Dr.Ice is far from the only esteemed theologian who interpret the Greek term, "apostasia,"as "departure." Below is a list of others who do, as well:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Tell me how your 1499 Geneva Bible translated 2 Thess.2:3!

FROM ANOTHER SOURCE:

2 Thes. 2:3, Falling Away Or Departure? – Grace thru faith


Quasar92
Your list is a fraud Quasar, C.I. Scofield taught "Apostasia" was the apostasy of the professing church.

Quasar you have misrepresented this truth, to promote the false teaching of "Departure" being a secret rapture.

1917 Scofield Reference Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:3

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time 2 Thessalonians 2:7

(2) the apostasy of the professing church 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Luke 18:8 ; 2 Timothy 3:1-8 .
 
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jgr

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No! It is a false statement! As I have made crystal clear in many places on this suite, 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8, are Paul's teachings about he pre-trib rapture of the Church. Your assessment of my views are like they are from the Scriptures you interpret!


Quasar92
The cited Church Fathers, Reformers, and English Bible translators all disagree with your view of 2 Thess. 2:3.

You claim that your view is Paul's view.

You therefore consider them to be calling Paul a liar.

Is that not a correct statement?
 
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Quasar92

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100% a fraud, read it again!


Your list is a fraud Quasar, C.I. Scofield taught "Apostasia" was the apostasy of the professing church.

Quasar you have misrepresented this truth, to promote the false teaching of "Departure" being a secret rapture.

1917 Scofield Reference Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:3

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time 2 Thessalonians 2:7

(2) the apostasy of the professing church 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Luke 18:8 ; 2 Timothy 3:1-8 .


THE FOLLOW3ING HISTORICAL SCRIPTURAL FACT5 PROVE THE GREEK AND LATIN TERMS OF APOSTASIA AND DISCESSIO MEANT THE DEPARTURE OF THE COMING CHURCH RAPTURE FOR 13 CENTURIES, BEFORE BEING ALTERED TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE! IT HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH A FALLING AWAY OR AN APOSTASY IN THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES! AS WELL AS WHO IT IS WHO CALLS OTHERS A FRAUD! PROVE IT! REVIEW THE FOLLOWING FACTS CAREFULLY:

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3
: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of verse 3. to accommodate the teachings of Augustine's Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7
: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8:
"And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

SEE MY POST #161 FOR THE LISTINGS OF THOSE YOU CALL FRAUDS! AND WHERE DID YOU OBTAIN YOUR QUALIFICATIONS TO TEACH THE BIBLE?


Quasar92
 
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Truth7t7

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THE FOLLOW3ING HISTORICAL SCRIPTURAL FACT5 PROVE THE GREEK AND LATIN TERMS OF APOSTASIA AND DISCESSIO MEANT THE DEPARTURE OF THE COMING CHURCH RAPTURE FOR 13 CENTURIES, BEFORE BEING ALTERED TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE! IT HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH A FALLING AWAY OR AN APOSTASY IN THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES! AS WELL AS WHO IT IS WHO CALLS OTHERS A FRAUD! PROVE IT! REVIEW THE FOLLOWING FACTS CAREFULLY:

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3
: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of verse 3. to accommodate the teachings of Augustine's Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7
: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8:
"And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

SEE MY POST #161 FOR THE LISTINGS OF THOSE YOU CALL FRAUDS! AND WHERE DID YOU OBTAIN YOUR QUALIFICATIONS TO TEACH THE BIBLE?


Quadar92

My posts 161, 164, 165,m 168 and 174 prove you to be the fraud. Let me see you try proving your false claims! 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thes.2:1-8 teach a rapture of the Church and have nothing whatever to do with OTHER Scriptures that do!


Quasar92
100% a fraud, read it again!

Show me in any Scripturally supported way, the teachings of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:12-16 and in 2 Thess.2:1-9 contains a single particle inferring those teachings pertain to an apostasy.falling away, instead of what it is about, a rapture of the Church!

Dr.Ice is far from the only esteemed theologian who interpret the Greek term, "apostasia,"as "departure." Below is a list of others who do, as well:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Tell me how your 1499 Geneva Bible translated 2 Thess.2:3!

FROM ANOTHER SOURCE:

2 Thes. 2:3, Falling Away Or Departure? – Grace thru faith


Quasar92
Your list is a fraud Quasar, C.I. Scofield taught "Apostasia" was the apostasy of the professing church.

Quasar you have misrepresented this truth, to promote the false teaching of "Departure" being a secret rapture.

1917 Scofield Reference Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:3

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time 2 Thessalonians 2:7

(2) the apostasy of the professing church 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Luke 18:8 ; 2 Timothy 3:1-8 .
 
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Quasar92

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100% a fraud, read it again!


Your list is a fraud Quasar, C.I. Scofield taught "Apostasia" was the apostasy of the professing church.

Quasar you have misrepresented this truth, to promote the false teaching of "Departure" being a secret rapture.

1917 Scofield Reference Notes

2 Thessalonians 2:3

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

for that day

The order of events is:

(1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time 2 Thessalonians 2:7

(2) the apostasy of the professing church 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ; Luke 18:8 ; 2 Timothy 3:1-8 .


It is clear you do not read. The unsupported opinions in your above post do not prove anything in my post #192 to contain the contents are about a falling away or an apostasy of the Church. You call others frauds when you clearly miss the facts proving you to be dead wrong. There are other passages of Scripture that reveal a falling away of the Church, but there is nothing whatever in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 that does, in any way shape of form. Either prove that statement to be false by the Scriptures, or get out of the kitchen, where it is too hot for you o handle by the Scriptures.

Those passages are about a rapture pf the Church, clearly proven by the Church being in heaven during the tribulation, for their marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and then returning with Him in His second coming, as recorded in verse 14!

You can find the fraud here by looking in the mirror! Capiche!


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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Those passages are about a rapture pf the Church, clearly proven by the Church being in heaven during the tribulation, for their marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and then returning with Him in His second coming, as recorded in verse 14!

You can find the fraud here by looking in the mirror! Capiche!

The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The verse above proves the error of John Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine.


.
 
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Quasar92

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The Capital "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The verse above proves the error of John Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine.


.


Explain to me how you arrive at the false claim non-believing Israel, who denied Jesus is their Messiah - and the believers in Jesus Christ, His Church - are not two groups of people!

Your crutches of, "the Church is Israel," and the "New Covenanrt," that Israel has NEVER accepted, will NOT provide any answers for you!

FYI, I will use a capitol C when I address the body of Christ, out of reverence for Him and His deity as the Son of God!


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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THE FOLLOW3ING HISTORICAL SCRIPTURAL FACT5 PROVE THE GREEK AND LATIN TERMS OF APOSTASIA AND DISCESSIO MEANT THE DEPARTURE OF THE COMING CHURCH RAPTURE FOR 13 CENTURIES, BEFORE BEING ALTERED TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE! IT HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH A FALLING AWAY OR AN APOSTASY IN THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES! AS WELL AS WHO IT IS WHO CALLS OTHERS A FRAUD! PROVE IT!

Not according to these two brethren, whose commentaries on 2 Thess. 2:3 precede all of your citations by many centuries:

Justin Martyr in Dialogue of Justin
O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy

Victorinus in Victorinus Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Paul the apostle says: "Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped."

The earliest scholars thus confirm Paul's word choice, and the intended meaning of that word.

Apostasy.
 
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jgr

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Explain to me how you arrive at the false claim non-believing Israel, who denied Jesus is their Messiah - and the believers in Jesus Christ, His Church - are not two groups of people!

Because genetic science tells us that ethnically they are now one group of people all possessing Abraham's DNA.

Or does dispensationalism's doctrine of ignorance tell us that genetics, science, and DNA, all of which are creations of God, do not exist?
 
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Quasar92

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Because genetic science tells us that ethnically they are now one group of people all possessing Abraham's DNA.

Or does dispensationalism's doctrine of ignorance tell us that genetics, science, and DNA, all of which are creations of God, do not exist?


You have swallowed a real can of worms! Please tell me which of the following Abraham came from! The Church of Christ consists of most every nation and languave on earth, as follows:

The Table of Nations
10 This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah’s sons, who themselves had sons after the flood.

The Japhethites
2 The sonsa]">[a] of Japheth:

Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshek and Tiras.

3 The sons of Gomer:

Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.

4 The sons of Javan:

Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittites and the Rodanites.b]">[b] 5 (From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)

The Hamites
6 The sons of Ham:

Cush, Egypt, Put and Canaan.

7 The sons of Cush:

Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteka.

The sons of Raamah:

Sheba and Dedan.

8 Cush was the fatherc]">[c] of Nimrod, who became a mighty warrior on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; that is why it is said, “Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Uruk, Akkad and Kalneh, ind]">[d] Shinar.e]">[e] 11 From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir,f]">[f] Calah 12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah—which is the great city.

13 Egypt was the father of

the Ludites, Anamites, Lehabites, Naphtuhites, 14 Pathrusites, Kasluhites (from whom the Philistines came) and Caphtorites.

15 Canaan was the father of

Sidon his firstborn,g]">[g] and of the Hittites, 16 Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, 17 Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, 18 Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites.

Later the Canaanite clans scattered 19 and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, as far as Lasha.

20 These are the sons of Ham by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.

The Semites
21 Sons were also born to Shem, whose older brother wash]">[h] Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.

22 The sons of Shem:

Elam, Ashur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram.

23 The sons of Aram:

Uz, Hul, Gether and Meshek.i]">[i]

24 Arphaxad was the father ofj]">[j] Shelah,

and Shelah the father of Eber.

25 Two sons were born to Eber:

One was named Peleg,k]">[k] because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.

26 Joktan was the father of

Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah and Jobab. All these were sons of Joktan.

30 The region where they lived stretched from Mesha toward Sephar, in the eastern hill country.

31 These are the sons of Shem by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.

32 These are the clans of Noah’s sons, according to their lines of descent, within their nations. From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Not according to these two brethren, whose commentaries on 2 Thess. 2:3 precede all of your citations by many centuries:

Justin Martyr in Dialogue of Justin
O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy

Victorinus in Victorinus Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Paul the apostle says: "Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped."

The earliest scholars thus confirm Paul's word choice, and the intended meaning of that word.

Apostasy.



JESUS WILL RETURN TWO MORE TIMES: THE FIRST TIME FOR HIS CHURCH, TO MEET THEM IN THE SKY AND THE SECOND TIME, HE WILL RETURN TO THE EARTH, WITH HIS CHURCH, FROM THEIR MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN, AS RECORDED IN THE SCRIPTURES BELOW:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92
 
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