New here - question

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum. I was searching for a place to ask for some help and found this forum. I read through some pages here and really like the interaction everyone has. I am hoping to get some opinions and possibly help understanding how to deal with my situation.

I have a few issues, but I want to bring up one that has been bother me for a very long time.

First of all, I am married (almost 20 years) with 4 kids. I got married young (16.5 years old) and still married to the same man. I do love my husband very much and I think that is why I'm so effected by some of the things he does, or doesn't do.

Current issue is finances, well... this is an ongoing issue since we got married. I can't seem to find a way to make this better.

Recently he had "invested" in a car (he is a mechanic and does this a lot), but decided to make it a project for our 16 year old son. He gave him the car and will work with him to restore it. It is an old Camero, I think (I'm not good with cars, I just know it's an old sports car, really beat up and torn apart on the inside.. but it is drivable.)

So here is my problem. This is not the first time he has done this sort of thing. Buy something major without even consulting with me. I wish he would have told me the moment he decided to give this car to our son. His excuse is that since I was the one who suggested that he teaches our son some sort of life skills, this is the project he came up with. (I always try to suggest that he implicates himself in our kid's lives, in a kind way, of course.) But he finds ways to use it against me, one way or another, I feel.

A few years back I was organizing some papers in the office and found out that he bought a piece of land somewhere in Colorado without ever letting me know. Other times he spent large amounts of money without letting me know. At times he will remember to call me and tell me about it, after the fact.

We were seeing a Christian counselor for a while but due to time constraints and tight finances we could not continue. I am working full time and in school full time. He recently was laid off work but runs his auto business for income. He had two jobs for over 8 years, which caused another level of stress in our lives. But left me tending to the kids all this time. I feel like they grew up without a father, but that's another issue.

So to generalize, he is not transparent about finances at all. He pays all the bills. We are in debt beyond what anyone can imagine. My paycheck is divided going most to his account and some to mine (with much struggle I had convinced him a couple of years ago for me to open my own account so I can have some money for gas, food, and personal necessities.) My 18 year old had mentioned that she has noticed his sporadic spending lately.

I'm at a loss. I tried everything. Talking to him gently and aggressively, praying for him, asking him to seek advice from others who he trusts, all the above and more. Nothing helps. He will try for a couple of months to do the right thing, but 'till this day I only have an idea where we stand financially due to my own investigation. He does not make it a point to disclose everything. I feel like he is living a separate life and only needs me when he needs his "personal" needs addressed. Other than that he does everything on his own.

Agh... too much to share, but I hate to write my whole life story here.

Finances - how do I address this? It's an issue that has been going on for almost 20 years of our marriage. I'm afraid I just can't see any better days for me with my husband. When things are going "well" I simply ignore these issues. That is the only way to keep peace between us. Otherwise we fight and disagree on almost everything. I do not at all claim to be perfect, but I am honest with him and try to do my best to change my self before I ever bring up things to him. But 20 years is too long to wait for him to mature and become responsible. I don't know what to do. So lost.

Help.

Olga

 

[LinkH]

If he were making money with his investments and everything was going well, then maybe you shouldn't worry about it. If he were working outside the home and you were stay-at-home, that would make sense. But you say you are in debt. Do you think there is a chance he's built up a lot of assets, far more than the debt, that you don't know about? If he's not hiding money for some sneaky purpose like leaving or a girlfriend on the side, it may not be the worse thing in the world. I mean, if he's just not talking about it to avoid conflicts because you have very different tolerances for risk and how you invest your money.

In some cultures, including European cultures a few hundred years ago, there were probably many families where the husbands controlled the family wealth and the wife didn't know what was going on. And there are probably plenty of rich couples nowadays, or old rich men married to younger women were this is the case. I suspect some private equity managers manage their own personal finances without boring their wives with the details. That's a little different situation than a middle class family that has a lot of debt. But my point is, I don't think it is a crime for a man to manage the family wealth without telling his wife all the decisions. I'm not saying it's the ideal. But there are lots of ways marriages are run.

I wouldn't start WWIII over something like this if I were you. If I were you, I might tell him I was concerned about the debt and ask about the land, and tell him you'd feel better if you knew there was some way to pay off the debt or if there were some assets that could be sold to do that if you were in a bind, and ask for more details. If he has a lot more of the family finances in the black than in the red and he's making money, then maybe you could leave it alone. And then you can pray about him opening up more about the finances. If he is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, you would have more reason to try to get involved in knowing what is going on in the finances.

If it does turn out that he has made some big financial mistakes, I'll give you some counter-intuitive advice. Don't give him a tongue lashing. Be supportive. Tell him how you feel, without attacking him. If you can be calm about something like that, then he may feel safer discussing these things with you.

About the car, does he plan on selling it after his son helps him fix it up, or will the son drive it? I have a cousin who had a really good job. I think he's retired now. But he got a car dealers license and liked to fix up cars, especially Cameros. He had a son at the time who was about your son's age, and they fixed up a Camero together. I think the son got to drive it when they were done. I wouldn't have done that, given a teenager a speed racer.

I think they sold some of their repaired cars, too, or made money with them somehow from car shows. They could make cars look new, and did Novas and things like that, too. Apparently, financially, that was a pretty good money-maker. I don't know if it really paid in terms of hours spent on it. But if your son is going to waste his time building video games, it makes more sense for him to learn a valuable skill. If the car sells, maybe he could get a cut to buy a non-sports-car.

 

[LoveConquers]

Have you ever spoken with a financial advisor? If not, maybe you can suggest to him that the two of you meet with a financial advisor for suggestings on working yourselves out of debt. The caveat would be that he has to provide full disclosure of all debts and assets. I know this may be difficult for him, but I think it's something you should advocate for, as it may be the only way you begin to feel comfortable with your financial situation.

 

[Odetta]

I second the financial advisor. He may be more willing to disclose to an advisor. I've had clients like that. Makes for interesting financial planning meetings.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Is he spending your money or the money he earns? Are you having trouble buying food and paying bills because he is spending it on this other stuff?

If he is spending your money or if he is spending so much that buying food and paying bills is becoming hard, then you have a right to be concerned. If that isn't the case, then you might be looking to create problems where none exist.

 

[Hetta]

Both spouses should always be consulted when it comes to large purchases, particularly when that couple is hugely in debt. In fact, when a couple is in debt, no large purchases should be even considered. It is dishonest and breaks the bonds between a couple when one is spending large amounts of money without telling the other.

What people did in European cultures hundreds of years ago doesn't have anything at all to do with the OP, btw.

I can only second or third the advice to get counseling - financial and marital. Agencies in your area should offer a sliding scale according to your income. Or if you have a church, you could approach your pastor.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Both spouses should always be consulted when it comes to large purchases, particularly when that couple is hugely in debt. In fact, when a couple is in debt, no large purchases should be even considered. It is dishonest and breaks the bonds between a couple when one is spending large amounts of money without telling the other.

What people did in European cultures hundreds of years ago doesn't have anything at all to do with the OP, btw.

I can only second or third the advice to get counseling - financial and marital. Agencies in your area should offer a sliding scale according to your income. Or if you have a church, you could approach your pastor.

It seems like he is being responsible with the finances, and you're encouraging her to demand they spend money on oodles of counseling. That is money spent, and its a public show of mistrust in him by her. Is that a diss? Should he demand a paternity test on his son?

 

[Hetta]

It seems like he is being responsible with the finances, and you're encouraging her to demand they spend money on oodles of counseling. That is money spent, and its a public show of mistrust in him by her. Is that a diss? Should he demand a paternity test on his son?

Did you read the OP? Did you also see the word "demand" anywhere in my post or hers?

We are in debt beyond what anyone can imagine.

Responsible with finances =/= huge debt. It just doesn't.

I don't think you read my post. I told her that there are sliding scales for counseling. And since when has counseling been "a public show of mistrust"? LOL.

Your final question is extremely insulting to the OP and I don't even know why you went there.

You can't make this stuff up. *SMH*

 

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

If he were making money with his investments and everything was going well, then maybe you shouldn't worry about it. If he were working outside the home and you were stay-at-home, that would make sense. But you say you are in debt. Do you think there is a chance he's built up a lot of assets, far more than the debt, that you don't know about? If he's not hiding money for some sneaky purpose like leaving or a girlfriend on the side, it may not be the worse thing in the world. I mean, if he's just not talking about it to avoid conflicts because you have very different tolerances for risk and how you invest your money. No, none of the above. We are short each month around $2-3k, so he has nothing to invest. But with the recent job loss from his 18 year job he received a severance package. He said he paid the mortgages on the house and our investment property, but only to catch up since he was late several months. No girlfriend that I know of or suspect. This would be another pain that I just can't deal with, on top of everything else. But I know he loves me deeply and do not believe that he would go to that extreme, although you really never know what to expect from people.

In some cultures, including European cultures a few hundred years ago, there were probably many families where the husbands controlled the family wealth and the wife didn't know what was going on. And there are probably plenty of rich couples nowadays, or old rich men married to younger women were this is the case. I suspect some private equity managers manage their own personal finances without boring their wives with the details. That's a little different situation than a middle class family that has a lot of debt. But my point is, I don't think it is a crime for a man to manage the family wealth without telling his wife all the decisions. I'm not saying it's the ideal. But there are lots of ways marriages are run. Considering we are both European, I completely understand. Here is the dilemma, we are no longer living in the times where women stayed home and did all the "chores" while the husband slaved outside the home to provide. As a matter of fact, I always asked him to let me stay home with the kids so I can raise them according to our values, but he is the one who made me go to work. I do not mind that he takes care of our finances, but I would at least like to see some progress? He is not even sharing THAT with me. At least let me know when you paid off a credit card or two.

I wouldn't start WWIII over something like this if I were you. If I were you, I might tell him I was concerned about the debt and ask about the land, and tell him you'd feel better if you knew there was some way to pay off the debt or if there were some assets that could be sold to do that if you were in a bind, and ask for more details. If he has a lot more of the family finances in the black than in the red and he's making money, then maybe you could leave it alone. And then you can pray about him opening up more about the finances. If he is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, you would have more reason to try to get involved in knowing what is going on in the finances. It is more serious than me making a fuss over nothing. He had come to me over the years asking me to sign on the dotted line. And me being the trusting and supportive wife that I was, signed without looking. I now have so many credit cards onto my name that if I count them all I may just file for divorce on the spot. I finally convinced him to file for bankruptcy a couple of years ago, but to no avail. We do not qualify for any chapters, according to the lawyer we met. And no, I did not get to see the full disclosure at that time either, due to our conflicting schedules. I did end up pulling my free report at that time and what I saw put me to bed sick for two days. I just crashed emotionally. But 'till this day he tries to avoid the conversation, and 99% of the time if I bring up finances it turns into a full blown fight, many times in front of the kids (I ask him to go and talk in private, but when he starts there is no stopping him, I simply walk away.)

If it does turn out that he has made some big financial mistakes, I'll give you some counter-intuitive advice. Don't give him a tongue lashing. Be supportive. Tell him how you feel, without attacking him. If you can be calm about something like that, then he may feel safer discussing these things with you. If you knew me you would know that I can argue like an adult. I have been supportive for the last 20 years, and on his good days he will even acknowledge this fact. But on his bad days all of our problems are my fault. I lasted 20 years in this marriage, no friends (due to his comments and criticism), away from any family (moved in support of him because his company moved across the US). This is why I'm here, need help.

About the car, does he plan on selling it after his son helps him fix it up, or will the son drive it? I have a cousin who had a really good job. I think he's retired now. But he got a car dealers license and liked to fix up cars, especially Cameros. He had a son at the time who was about your son's age, and they fixed up a Camero together. I think the son got to drive it when they were done. I wouldn't have done that, given a teenager a speed racer. No matter what he is planning to do AFTER the fact, I think that it would have been respectful and considerate of him to talk to me about it in the first place. And tell you the truth I probably would have had a problem with it, but this is not the first time. For the last several years he went ahead and bought all the Christmas gifts for our kids on his own. Never said a word to me until all the gifts were under the tree all wrapped up. It was humiliating to me not knowing what was in there. Yes, he told me when I asked, but I hope you see my point. It's hurtful no matter how he twists it.

I think they sold some of their repaired cars, too, or made money with them somehow from car shows. They could make cars look new, and did Novas and things like that, too. Apparently, financially, that was a pretty good money-maker. I don't know if it really paid in terms of hours spent on it. But if your son is going to waste his time building video games, it makes more sense for him to learn a valuable skill. If the car sells, maybe he could get a cut to buy a non-sports-car.

I can't even start to express to you how much I encouraged him to start running his auto business full time. I always told him that I believe that he is extremely talented when it comes to this skill. My father is mechanic but his work doesn't even come close to my husbands. And that is feedback from customers who met both. I have always tried to encourage, support, and uplift him. This is part of the reason why he shuts down completely when I loose it. And I loose it when I no longer have the strength to go on. My analogy to him is that even the strongest solder on the battle field will eventually fall to the ground depleted of strength. He on the other hand expects me to be a super-woman and put up with everything and anything he throws my way. But I'm only human, I can't do it all the time. And I am running out of strength again, and this time it's to the point that I can no longer see a long future with my husband. And I can't tell you how much it pains me to write this. I can not think about without breaking down in tears.

 

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

Have you ever spoken with a financial advisor? If not, maybe you can suggest to him that the two of you meet with a financial advisor for suggestings on working yourselves out of debt. The caveat would be that he has to provide full disclosure of all debts and assets. I know this may be difficult for him, but I think it's something you should advocate for, as it may be the only way you begin to feel comfortable with your financial situation.

Yes, we have. It was brief. The lawyer told us we do not qualify for any chapter bancroptcy due to lack of income to cover our debt. And my husband refused to give up our investment property no matter how much I begged. Even our older kids have started to ask him why he doesn't just give it up to the bank. His reply is that he invested too much money into those properties and he believes that if he holds on to the rope long enough it will pay off. But it has been 10 years now that he has been missing from the kid's lives. And I don't know what it will take to wake him up from this dream of bigger and better wealth. I don't want it. I just want a simple comfortable life with little material things and just enough to pay of our kid's college, if they wish to go. Our daughter is registered to start classes in the fall this year. We will have to consider how to help her pay for her education. I actually plan on using what is left over from MY financial aid to help her pay for her classes. But again, I'm having to think about this on my own. There is no "let's sit down and see where we are at and what we need to do moving forward."

 

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

Is he spending your money or the money he earns? Are you having trouble buying food and paying bills because he is spending it on this other stuff?

He is spending our money. I had a small part of my check set up to go into my account, just so I can have money for gas and food. But he is not paying the bills on time. We had electricity shut off multiple times, garbage and gas not paid, internet shut off, car payment late, so yes, he is having trouble keeping up with bills. On top of that overdraft fees all throughout the year as well as late fees for the bills and connection fees. I cover the food since I get a part of my check, but this was a change I had basically taken action on because he was not keeping up. And yes, many times the fridge is empty and pantry as well. Lately he is keeping up with buying food, so I can't complain there. That's another topic on it's own. I hope I answered the question.

If he is spending your money or if he is spending so much that buying food and paying bills is becoming hard, then you have a right to be concerned. If that isn't the case, then you might be looking to create problems where none exist.

Oh goodness, trust me, the last thing I want to do is create problems where there are none. I get PMS just like any other women and tend to take things out of hand sometimes, but this is so much bigger than me complaining to having mood swings. 20 years is a long time to look the other way and pretend that everything is OK, just for the sake of staying married and not breaking our family apart.

 

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

Both spouses should always be consulted when it comes to large purchases, particularly when that couple is hugely in debt. In fact, when a couple is in debt, no large purchases should be even considered. It is dishonest and breaks the bonds between a couple when one is spending large amounts of money without telling the other.

What people did in European cultures hundreds of years ago doesn't have anything at all to do with the OP, btw.

I can only second or third the advice to get counseling - financial and marital. Agencies in your area should offer a sliding scale according to your income. Or if you have a church, you could approach your pastor.

Thank you for the advise, I appreciate it. We did see a counselor. After many years I finally convinced him that the investment was highly important to our marriage. It cost us only $20 per session. I told him I would stop eating lunch and dinner during work days to save this money (I always make my own lunch), just so we can go. After about 3 sessions he told me that the finances are tight and we can no longer go. This was around Christmas time, so I understood. We never went back.

We are both European, I understand the cultures more than most can imagine. The problem is that he wants an obidient wife when it is convenient for him, and a fully independent wife when it pleases him. I ended up being confused, never learned who I really am and what my purpose in this life is. I married him when I was 16, I am now 36 and starting to learn more about who I am and what I want out of life. I don't want to live this way, this I know for sure.

 

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

It seems like he is being responsible with the finances, and you're encouraging her to demand they spend money on oodles of counseling. That is money spent, and its a public show of mistrust in him by her. Is that a diss? Should he demand a paternity test on his son?

Autumnleaf, my husband is very disorganized when it comes to finances. To him responsibility means working hard even if money is not coming in. I think I have explained enough so far to show why I have such a huge problem with how he deals with our finances. And even if we are in the deepest hole you can find buried in mud to our ears, if he was fully honest with me and gave me the consideration and honor as his wife, before he took the action with OUR money, I would be fine with that. No matter how bad our situation may be. We are in it together, or so I fantasize. We are not in it together at all in reality. He is doing most things on his own, and when I speak up he will give me a call asking if he should make decision so-and-so. But he will ask me on minor things. What he does is leave me out of major decisions and calls me up for minor things. And then he says that he indeed called me and asked my advice.

And I'm not sure what exactly you meant by a paternity test. I'm not the one who visited strip clubs while he was at home tending to the kids, making sure homework were done and everyone was fed and bathed before bed. I could take offence to this suggestion, but God is all knowing, He is the one who knows the truth. And the fact that all four kids look like either him or me should prove to anyone that they are ALL his. Considering that I had NEVER had a problem with men during my marriage, according to my husband it is because I send the message that I am not interested. So I hope this somewhat answers that question. 20 years of marriage is hard enough, I should not have to defend my self for things that are irrelevant.

I'm sorry, that was a bit of a rant. We all have weaknesses, but this is not one of mine. I know where I stand and I answer to God first and then to my husband.

 

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

Did you read the OP? Did you also see the word "demand" anywhere in my post or hers?



Responsible with finances =/= huge debt. It just doesn't.

I don't think you read my post. I told her that there are sliding scales for counseling. And since when has counseling been "a public show of mistrust"? LOL.

Your final question is extremely insulting to the OP and I don't even know why you went there.

You can't make this stuff up. *SMH*

Thank you Hetta, I appreciate your post. I did not come here to start drama, but I do understand those who question me as well. I have no problem answering questions about my intentions. I would prefer that people attempt to be polite, but that's something we can't expect of everyone, especially in an online forum.

I do want to make it very, very clear that I love my husband very much. He is a good man and tries to be the best father to the kids. There were incidents that I do not wish to bring up here that I disagree with him on, such as how he views discipline. But I am here asking for help. In order to do that I need to make my problem clear, but please bear with me as this is 20 years worth of accumulation. Some may wish to help, some will judge. I can take either one, I'm a big girl. And I do appreciate the replies and suggestions.

 

[KWCrazy]

Greetings.
Try Dave Ramsey.

His book Financial Peace may be exactly what the two of you need. He teaches how to budget together and give every dollar a specific task.

You don't have a marriage problem, you have a money problem and a communication problem.

Hope it helps.

 

[MomWifeAndEverythingElse]

Greetings.
Try Dave Ramsey.

His book Financial Peace may be exactly what the two of you need. He teaches how to budget together and give every dollar a specific task.

You don't have a marriage problem, you have a money problem and a communication problem.

Hope it helps.

Hi KWCrazy, I have the book. I bought it and asked him to give it a chance. Let him read it on his own at his own convenience. The book is on the bookshelf gathering dust. Didn't help at all. His excuse is that it is too simple for our complicated finances. I requested (gently) if we can listen to Dave's show when we are in the car together. He said it was too depressing hearing all those people scream about being debt free. For me it was joyful and created hope, he would not have it.

 

[LinkH]

Yes, we have. It was brief. The lawyer told us we do not qualify for any chapter bancroptcy due to lack of income to cover our debt. And my husband refused to give up our investment property no matter how much I begged. Even our older kids have started to ask him why he doesn't just give it up to the bank. His reply is that he invested too much money into those properties and he believes that if he holds on to the rope long enough it will pay off. But it has been 10 years now that he has been missing from the kid's lives. And I don't know what it will take to wake him up from this dream of bigger and better wealth. I don't want it. I just want a simple comfortable life with little material things and just enough to pay of our kid's college, if they wish to go. Our daughter is registered to start classes in the fall this year. We will have to consider how to help her pay for her education. I actually plan on using what is left over from MY financial aid to help her pay for her classes. But again, I'm having to think about this on my own. There is no "let's sit down and see where we are at and what we need to do moving forward."

Are you saying he owns vacant land not generating income? This is my MBA talking, but he shouldn't be doing that. If he's got some great land, it needs to be generating a return year after year or he should let it go. The way future values are calculated, returns next year and a few years down the line are worth much more than returns many years in the future. He should own land or properties that produce enough to cover a mortgage against the properties. Also, in business school, they teach us 'sunk costs.' You don't look at how much you invested in the past. You look at what the investment is worth right now and the cost v. benefits in the future. If it's going to hurt you going forward, you let it go.

I know he's the one who needs to hear this stuff, rather than yourself. Maybe if he discussed with a financial counselor, even someone he could meet for free who'd try to sell him insurance or something like that, it might make sense to him.

 

[KWCrazy]

Maybe if he discussed with a financial counselor, even someone he could meet for free who'd try to sell him insurance or something like that, it might make sense to him.

Insurance salesmen aren't financial planners. If they were, they could never sell whole life, universal life or any of the other scam products that steal your savings if you use the death benefit. Shop term insurances rates based on cost per thousand and have at least ten times the breadwinner's salary over and above the amount needed to clear all debts. This means that you carry it too. Investment planning requires someone with a securities license. If they are licensed, discard their advice.

Your grandmother was probably your best financial planner when she said if you can't pay for something don't buy it. The borrower is slave to the lender. It's hard to have a warm, loving home when you are both enslaved to the whimsical spending of immaturity. Sell the junk, get out of debt, save your money and plan for the future. Don't try to live like you're rich and maybe one day you will be rich.

 

[Annessa3]

sending you prayers, MomWife. You're in a difficult situation; one I have lived more than once.

and - word- AL & Link are quite Tradionalists. Just saying. Although they mostly speak from their hearts, their hearts are seemingly lodged in the 1950s.

just sending prayers for you. I understand. I hope you will see God's path thru this.
A

 

[akmom]

Debt is very stressful. I can imagine how helpless it would feel to be in debt "beyond what you can imagine" and not be able to make progress on it because your spouse isn't on board. The thing about debt is that, for the most part, we all know what it takes to get rid of it. We know our income and expenses, and what we need to cut to make it work. We know to pay off expenses with the highest interest rates first. And I think we typically know when it's best to sell something, or keep it, in terms of its resale value versus usefulness to us. (I say because cars seem to be one of your assets, and of course having transportation can be less costly than the alternatives - so not necessarily a bad decision to buy or keep a car that could otherwise sell and pay off debts.)

In the end, I think it's just about resolve. You (both) have to come to that point that you sit down and make that budget, and then follow through. And if it doesn't add up, you have to be willing to put those "investments" on that table until it does. And it's possible that it won't...

That could be a really stressful prospect for him. Maybe your husband is afraid that his assets just won't add up to the point that a viable budget is possible? So he's afraid to even approach the math, hoping instead that some investment will turn up worthwhile and he can fix it then...

I know that's not a solution. I'm just trying to brainstorm what his though process might be.