New Guy with BIG Questions

Zebra1552 · Feb 7, 2011

BlueLightningTN said:
We have total, 100% free will. God seldom meddles in human events. The reason behind an event is almost always chance or human decision.

Surely your BIG questions are going to get harder than this,

BL

So, BL, we can fly? Can we teleport? Shoot lasers out of our eyes? Do anything we so choose anytime we so choose to do it? No? Then we don't have 100% free will.

Jack544 · Feb 7, 2011

No, we do have free will. We have free will to do what is within our capabilities.

paul becke · Feb 7, 2011

No reason why free will and divine intervention should not coexist, as indeed it does, but what is utterly imponderable is free will and predestination. I believe God acts all the time in the world, often through the agency of angels, whether in the form of members of the orders of "pure spirits", or in the form of human beings.

However, look up Niels Bohr on Wikiquotes and read what he has to say about the paradoxes in quantum physics.

"It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth", is just one of a number of points he made on the same theme.

Jack544 · Feb 7, 2011

We have free will. But our personality has already given our destiny.

realtruth101 · Feb 7, 2011

Lily_Among_Thorns said:
There is no free will. Everything that is was and will be is all authored by God. God is the all. All things came from him and to him all things go to him.

This shouldn't be disconcerting to free will as all things are made holy by this intervention. The intervention of everything including ourselves.

That is biblically incorrect

realtruth101 · Feb 7, 2011

supersoldier71 said:
The OP was about Divine Intervention: I suspect that if there were no need for God's Intervention in the lives of His elect, he wouldn't have sent the Holy Spirit, the Comforter to indwell His saints. Without hyperbole, the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity is what moves believers along the path of santification, being more Christ-like. Biblically, no one was said to have the Spirit "in them" until after Christ breathed His last: the blood debt was paid. The Holy Spirit could then indwell the redeemed, because they had been imparted the purity of Christ.

Divine Intervention: I know I see things differently than I did before I was saved. I think differently, and I know that other believers have had similar experiences. Raising someone who is dead in their tresspases and sins from that spiritual death IS God doing His thing, "intervening".

Does He still do miracles? I say yes! In my opinion, if it weren't for mountain of miracles, I wouldn't still be drawing breath. It seems to me that any discussion of modern day miracles would be largely anecdotal in nature...because it obviously can't be Scriptural.

Actually the old testiment is filled with stories where men and women were filled with the Holy Spirit

Zebra1552 · Feb 7, 2011

realtruth101 said:
Actually the old testiment is filled with stories where men and women were filled with the Holy Spirit

Name 10 without opening your Bible.

revanneosl · Feb 8, 2011

Okay - all of you need to run out right now and get a copy of The Third Peacock by Robert Capon. It will explain to you not only the limits of human free will and it's relationship to the will of God, but also - extra added bonus fun - it will explain to you why God's omniscience, omnibenevolence and sovereign creating action do not prevent the existence of evil.

Unfortunately this fabulous book is out of print - so you may have to work hard to find it as a standalone volume. It has, however, been collected in a omnibus volume with two other of Capon's works. That omnibus is entitled The Romance Of The Word, and is available at all fine booksellers.

realtruth101 · Feb 8, 2011

Jaws13 said:
Name 10 without opening your Bible.

Ok and I'm not opening my bible so you will have to just try to find the passages yourself as they relate to the stories, King Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit and began to prophecy, and to prophecy you have to be filled with the Holy Spirit, so every prophet and prophetess of the old testiment would of had the experience of what it was like to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit such as Moses, Deborah, Samuel, And since the bible is written by men inspired by the holy Spirit then since David wrote Psalms he would have to have been filled with the Holy Spirit, Soloman for Proverbs and Eccesiastes, Isaiah the prophet, Jeremiah the prophet, Ezekiel, and Daniel, and the rest of the minor prophets, then there are incidences when even as a baby John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit, as I believe even Johns mother Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, Mary mother of Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. Now if I took my bible I'm sure I could find at least ten more.

Grey Wanderer · Feb 8, 2011

Singpeace - Thank you for your posts. That actually helped with another question I haven't yet asked. WOW you're good!

Jack544 - I like you're simple & ideal views.

revanneosl - I appreciate the suggestion, but last thing I need is another book made by men confusing me.

Lily Among Thorns - I really appreciate your insight, but to be honest I would hope that you have some sort of scriptural backup to your bold philosophy. I see you used John 1:3 saying that everything was made by God, but regardless of how much I read into that tiny verse, I really don't see how "God made everything" translates into he purposely controls everything too. Your belief of extreme absolutism in this doesn't make much sense due to the fact that if everything man does is of God's will and not his own in any way, then men who love God love him without choice. It also brings the question, again, that if man commits a sin, like denying God or Jesus, should he pay the price for his sin since he really wasn't in control in the first place?

There's a lot of great minds in here, but unfortunately the more I seem to delve into this particular topic the more I realize how subjective it is. There's scriptures about people who "had the holy spirit in them" but how could the person recording and documenting this know? Did they have their spiritual detector sticks turned on to confirm? Once again, perspective is reality. The only being that truly knows is God himself. Even people who "have the spirit" in them have risk of confusing it with just being in a really good mood, simply because of they're limited mortal comprehension.

Anyway, seeing the responses and comparisons in here, yet there's nothing that even comes close to an "end all, be all" verse or statement. I think it's fair to say this is as far as this answer can go. Oh sure we can go another couple rounds of back & forth, bible verse gymnastics, but we'll end up in the same spot. After all the searching, I think I just need to be content with the fact that there are going to be many things in the bible that I will never have a full understanding of. However, it seems that's the way it was meant to be and I need to let the big guy worry about it.

Guys & gals I really appreciate everything. And I look forward to more discussions with you. Just these 3 pages of discussion were more stimulating and helpful than the last 3 years of talking here with the local folk.

Once again, thank you.

Harry3142 · Feb 8, 2011

Lily-

We protestants see continual divine intervention in the lives of everyone as synonymous with predestination, which is the belief that certain people are predestined for heaven while others are predestined for hell, without their having any say in the matter.

Zebra1552 · Feb 8, 2011

realtruth101 said:
Ok and I'm not opening my bible so you will have to just try to find the passages yourself as they relate to the stories, King Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit and began to prophecy,

Granted.

and to prophecy you have to be filled with the Holy Spirit, so every prophet and prophetess of the old testiment would of had the experience of what it was like to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit such as Moses, Deborah, Samuel, And since the bible is written by men inspired by the holy Spirit then since David wrote Psalms he would have to have been filled with the Holy Spirit, Soloman for Proverbs and Eccesiastes, Isaiah the prophet, Jeremiah the prophet, Ezekiel, and Daniel, and the rest of the minor prophets, then there are incidences when even as a baby John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit, as I believe even Johns mother Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, Mary mother of Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. Now if I took my bible I'm sure I could find at least ten more.

You said stories from the OT, not inferences from what we know from material in the NT. In which case every single one of the above examples you cite does not back your claim that the 'Bible is filled with stories of people being filled with the HS in the OT'. You made an exaggeration, plain and simple.

Jack544 · Feb 9, 2011

Thanks. lol But if you were inside my mind, you would see how complex and complicated my views are.

Grey Wanderer said:
Jack544 - I like you're simple & ideal views.

Harry3142 · Feb 10, 2011

To many people divine intervention means that something truly spectacular happened. But in most cases even when divine intervention occurs, it's so subtle that it goes unnoticed.

There's a story that points this out:

A flood hit a low-lying area where a certain man lived, and the water started rising rapidly. A 4X4 came by, and the driver told the man to get in.

The man responded, "No, thank you. The Lord will provide."

The floodwaters got higher, and now the man was on the second story of his home. A cabin cruiser came by, and its operator told him to get in.

The man responded, "No, thank you. The Lord will provide."

The man was now on his roof, as the floodwaters had completely inundated his home. A helicopter flew over and dropped a rope so that they could hoist him up and get him out of there. But again he responded, "No, thank you. The Lord will provide."

The man drowned. His soul appeared before God, and he asked God why he didn't provide for him. To this God answered, "I sent you a 4X4, a cabin cruiser, and a helicopter. What did you want, a 747?"

revrobor · Feb 12, 2011

Grey Wanderer said:
Hey guys & gals.

Longtime Christian here who has seen a lot of things and developed a lot of questions but never got many answers. When I ask my tiny community these questions they either don't know and get frustrated and accuse me of trying to break Christian faiths, or they have good intentions but just fall back to vague, rehearsed answers that help none. You know, those one-liners like "Just pray more and the answers will come to you." or "Follow your spirit and it will show you the way."

Now, I'm not bashing them, I just think that with a small church comes small thinking and limited versatility in thinking methods. And they're so terrified of their own shadow that if they found themselves thinking a little outside the box and questioning even a syllable of the bible, that might be considered mistrusting God or doubting his word. So they're just stuck, it seems.

Anyway, on with the big questions that have been prodding me for quite a while. **NOTE** I looked at the different forum categories and this one seemed to be the most fitting. However, if I have this thread in the wrong forum, please let me know so I can fix it.

DIVINE INTERVENTION

I have reworded the whole "run-through" on this topic dozens of times to attempt to make it smaller and simpler.

Ok, one of God's greatest gifts (and curses) was free will. We all act on our own accord in this existence because without CHOOSING to love God or CHOOSING to accept Jesus, there would be no point. It would be a programmed, involuntary love. Ok, gotchya. So if we are in control of our own actions and choices, how could divine intervention exist?

Examples:

You're in a car. The light turns green, you start forward and right after you pass the intersection WHAM, the car immediately behind you gets t-boned by a semi. Common explanations I always hear for the guy in the first car is that it wasn't his time and/or God saved his life that day. For the unlucky driver in the 2nd car, it was simply "their time" and God wanted one of his children back home. And for the trucker in the semi, this all happened so he would pay more attention at the wheel or check his truck better next time for brake line leaks, or if he wasn't a Christian, the wreck was solely orchestrated so he could find faith. Not to mention, every bystander somehow translates the situation being meant for them in some way. The overall conclusion is that it ALL happened for a reason. It was all in God's plan. For what purpose, we won't know, but just trust that God knows what he's doing. So crashes never happened because of human error, ever? The programmer of the traffic light, the mechanic that worked on the car/s, the convenience store attendant that didn't put enough scoops in the trucker's coffee?

You're at a bank. Waiting in line, robber comes in for some free cash. Tellers empty the drawers into his bag, he feels the need for violence and bam.....takes out one of the clerks, the manager and one of the customers. So did God have his hand in that? Did he puzzle this robbery together to happen on this certain day to kill those certain people and make a lasting impact an everyone that was in the building and their families. And if so, is the robber guilty of murder and theft and are those sins really his own that he should be punished for if God was controlling him the whole time? So there's my crossroads on that. If God was controlling the situation, then free will didn't exist in this case and the robber wasn't controlling his actions, therefore he did not sin. But if free will did exist and God merely watched, then it really wasn't their time to go. It was simply the robbers choice when those people left this life.

I've got a few more really big questions, but I don't want to overwhelm anyone (mostly myself) and just take this one step at a time.

Thanks in advance. I look forward to some intellectual insight on this.

I have not read the other answers but here is what I know. After God created the Earth and all upon it He turned it over to Adam and Eve. They, by their disobedience turned it over to Satan. Since that time bad things have happened and will continue to happen until the Lord returns and God creates the New Earth. God did not "control" the errant driver or the bank robber. Those "bad things" we the fault of those individuals either through their carelessness or deliberate sinful reasoning (with perhaps a little influence from Satan). They both had the freedom to make other choices but chose to do what they did. God is ultimately in control in that He will one day (perhaps sooner than we think) bring it all to an end. The wicked will receive their punishment and the followers of God their rewards. God can intervene in a Believers life if He is asked. What He chooses to do is entirely up to Him. It's really not our place to question or judge God or to blame Him for things we do not like or understand. Man does have free will and is solely responsible for the choices he makes.

LWB · Feb 13, 2011

I suspect 100% divine intervention and 100% human free will both operate together without any conflict or paradox. I don't know how, but I also don't know how quantum mechanics and relativity are both valid, yet contradictory.

I think the answer, or theory of everything to solve this dilemma, is beyond logic. God's not operating from our dualistic perspective. There is some higher dimension from which the conundrum is unlocked.

Emmy · Feb 13, 2011

Dear Grey Wanderer. We live in an imperfect world, that is Not of God`s doing. We have been given free will, we can choose to follow God`s Commandments, or go our own way. God`s Will for us is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and all our minds. Also: love our neighbour as ourselves. When accidents happen, they are NOT of God`s doing, they simply happen for reasons which mostly are accidental or committed by some men or women. IF, as believing and praying Christians, we are involved, we normally cry for God`s help. It is then, that God will give stepping stones out of mishaps or any calamity. For those who do not believe in God, they will take their chances. God has given us free will, and God has also given us His Commandments, ( loving advice) God does not force us, or coerce in any way. Many unhappy or sad things will happen to us, in this imperfect world, but often they are the results of our own carelessness or even we are reaping what we sown. God will not interfere in our chosen paths, ONLY if we ask in prayer. And even then, God will always do it without going against any free choice of other believers. That is also a valid reason why some of our prayers take a long time to be answered, God has promised free will to everybody. God wants our love freely given. I say this with love, Grey Wanderer. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

visionary · Feb 13, 2011

Grey Wanderer said:
Hey guys & gals.

Longtime Christian here who has seen a lot of things and developed a lot of questions but never got many answers. When I ask my tiny community these questions they either don't know and get frustrated and accuse me of trying to break Christian faiths, or they have good intentions but just fall back to vague, rehearsed answers that help none. You know, those one-liners like "Just pray more and the answers will come to you." or "Follow your spirit and it will show you the way."

Now, I'm not bashing them, I just think that with a small church comes small thinking and limited versatility in thinking methods. And they're so terrified of their own shadow that if they found themselves thinking a little outside the box and questioning even a syllable of the bible, that might be considered mistrusting God or doubting his word. So they're just stuck, it seems.

Anyway, on with the big questions that have been prodding me for quite a while. **NOTE** I looked at the different forum categories and this one seemed to be the most fitting. However, if I have this thread in the wrong forum, please let me know so I can fix it.

DIVINE INTERVENTION

I have reworded the whole "run-through" on this topic dozens of times to attempt to make it smaller and simpler.

Ok, one of God's greatest gifts (and curses) was free will. We all act on our own accord in this existence because without CHOOSING to love God or CHOOSING to accept Jesus, there would be no point. It would be a programmed, involuntary love. Ok, gotchya. So if we are in control of our own actions and choices, how could divine intervention exist?

Examples:

You're in a car. The light turns green, you start forward and right after you pass the intersection WHAM, the car immediately behind you gets t-boned by a semi. Common explanations I always hear for the guy in the first car is that it wasn't his time and/or God saved his life that day. For the unlucky driver in the 2nd car, it was simply "their time" and God wanted one of his children back home. And for the trucker in the semi, this all happened so he would pay more attention at the wheel or check his truck better next time for brake line leaks, or if he wasn't a Christian, the wreck was solely orchestrated so he could find faith. Not to mention, every bystander somehow translates the situation being meant for them in some way. The overall conclusion is that it ALL happened for a reason. It was all in God's plan. For what purpose, we won't know, but just trust that God knows what he's doing. So crashes never happened because of human error, ever? The programmer of the traffic light, the mechanic that worked on the car/s, the convenience store attendant that didn't put enough scoops in the trucker's coffee?

You're at a bank. Waiting in line, robber comes in for some free cash. Tellers empty the drawers into his bag, he feels the need for violence and bam.....takes out one of the clerks, the manager and one of the customers. So did God have his hand in that? Did he puzzle this robbery together to happen on this certain day to kill those certain people and make a lasting impact an everyone that was in the building and their families. And if so, is the robber guilty of murder and theft and are those sins really his own that he should be punished for if God was controlling him the whole time? So there's my crossroads on that. If God was controlling the situation, then free will didn't exist in this case and the robber wasn't controlling his actions, therefore he did not sin. But if free will did exist and God merely watched, then it really wasn't their time to go. It was simply the robbers choice when those people left this life.

I've got a few more really big questions, but I don't want to overwhelm anyone (mostly myself) and just take this one step at a time.

Thanks in advance. I look forward to some intellectual insight on this.

God does have His hand in the events.. but not as you suggest... More often than not, He tells the individuals in still small voice to do something, that would have change the course of events.. and if they are obedient to this, it could mean that they didn't go to work that day, they stepped away from the desk and were in the bathroom at the moment, etc...

Paxton25 · Feb 13, 2011

Grey Wanderer said:
Hey guys and gals.

DIVINE INTERVENTION

Ok, one of God's greatest gifts (and curses) was free will. We all act on our own accord in this existence because without CHOOSING to love God or CHOOSING to accept Jesus, there would be no point. It would be a programmed, involuntary love. Ok, gotchya. So if we are in control of our own actions and choices, how could divine intervention exist?

Free will implies an infinite number of choices. Original sin gave humanity a sense of good and evil so warped it separated us from our creator and yielded a limited number of choices. Our 'free will' extends not far beyond that of a fish in a fish bowl.

Theism is the belief that there is a deity that is active in the lives of his creation. Several examples of this can be found in the Torah (Pentateuch) of the Old Testament, the ministry of Jesus Christ and the Early New Testament Church. It can be said in those times that God was first above us, then among us, and now within us as we allow it.

God's intervention without a degree of free will is the sound of one hand clapping, as is unbridled human will without God's intervention.

In fact, it is in that moment that we recognize that our 'free will' is not truly free that we can surrender our 'sinful will' to our redeemer, Jesus Christ, and be reunited with our creator.

The bridge to your creator consists of two boards and three nails. Dare you surrender your 'free will,' confess your sinfulness, turn from your rebellious ways and accept the pardon of your Lord's atonement?

Sturgeon said something like, the path to Heaven featured a sign that read, ''Whosoever will may come.'' At the end of the journey, looking back, a sign from God read, ''You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.''

Such is the paradox of free will and God's sovereignty. We are only free when we begin our walk with the Lord, for we shall know the truth, and the truth shall set us free.

thfdoc · Feb 17, 2011

Those two examples would all be natural, random, free events.

I imagine if divine intervention were to intervene, then there would of been no car crash that time, and no bank robber *that time*....

As far as "Why doesn't divine intervention ALWAYS intervene"...well, I think that is up to divine intervention.

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