New Covenant

[beloved57]

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.

heb 11:

8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.Not Israel dude..

12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[beloved57]

Quote:
There are no other promises save from whats in ot scripture, and all pointed to christ..
lk 24:
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
In this scripture Christ makes it clear that He is talking about the promises concerning Him personally, the promises about His coming, life, death, and resurrection. He's clearly not speaking about promises to Israel.

Thats the point, all promises to Israel find their fullfillment in him..

2) "The fathers" is in reference to the fathers of Israel,

father abraham, gentiles are His children too

gal 3:

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

Quote:
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.

heb 11:
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.Not Israel dude..

Because the builder and maker is God, how does that disqualify Israel? How do you justify that? The writer is saying that the foundations aren't of man's hands, they will be of God's hands. That in no way discounts Israel.

12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This makes it clear that the promises are still yet to come.

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

Quote:
Quote:
There are no other promises save from whats in ot scripture, and all pointed to christ..
lk 24:
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
In this scripture Christ makes it clear that He is talking about the promises concerning Him personally, the promises about His coming, life, death, and resurrection. He's clearly not speaking about promises to Israel.

Thats the point, all promises to Israel find their fullfillment in him..

The point would be that they WILL find their fulfillment in them through Him, as their fulfillment is yet to come. He is the Mediator, and will mediate the promises to whom they are assigned.

Quote:
2) "The fathers" is in reference to the fathers of Israel,

father abraham, gentiles are His children too
gal 3:
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

True, but we can't ignore that Paul eliminates Gentiles from the promises given to Abraham, yet INCLUDING Gentiles in the SINGLE PROMISE. That is factual. That was a purposeful move by Paul (via the Holy Spirit). It pointed out clearly that we were included in the one promise, and excluded from the other promises, as they don't pertain to us.

I won't even mention that the fathers (plural) spoken of are the fathers of Israel.

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

@ beloved57

Quote:
Quote:
There are no other promises save from whats in ot scripture, and all pointed to christ..
lk 24:
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
In this scripture Christ makes it clear that He is talking about the promises concerning Him personally, the promises about His coming, life, death, and resurrection. He's clearly not speaking about promises to Israel.


The point would be that they WILL find their fulfillment in them through Him, as their fulfillment is yet to come. He is the Mediator, and will mediate the promises to whom they are assigned.

Quote:
2) "The fathers" is in reference to the fathers of Israel,

True, but we can't ignore that Paul eliminates Gentiles from the promises given to Abraham, yet INCLUDING Gentiles in the SINGLE PROMISE. That is factual. That was a purposeful move by Paul (via the Holy Spirit). It pointed out clearly that we were included in the one promise, and excluded from the other promises, as they don't pertain to us.

I won't even mention that the fathers (plural) spoken of are the fathers of Israel.

God Bless!

So why havent you been able to show the promises that gentiles are excluded ? Thus far both verses you have shown pertain to the eternal state for all believers..You have not yet proved anything because you cant, you are living in a fantasy land..

 

[beloved57]

True, but we can't ignore that Paul eliminates Gentiles from the promises given to Abraham

Yeah right, you dont know what you talking about.

rom 4:


13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

So why havent you been able to show the promises that gentiles are excluded ?

Paul shows you the excluded promises when he assigned the one single promise to Gentiles at the exclusion of the other promises. That is undeniable. Those promises are excluded.

Thus far both verses you have shown pertain to the eternal state for all believers..You have not yet proved anything because you cant, you are living in a fantasy land..

I have proven that Gentiles have received one promise, I have proven that Gentiles have been excluded from the other promises, I have proven that Gentiles are to receive what we've been assigned. Those are the things I began with, and those are the things that are proven with the Bible. Why don't you try disproving what has been proven?

Fantasy land would be someone making a statement that they can't support with the Bible such as,

"Because this was a mystery , that both Jews and gentiles were the true Israel , the true Jews , whose hope was in the resurrection.."

Or, the creation of something called "ethnic Israel". These things would constitute fantasy land because there is NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT for these such fictitious things.

God Bless!

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

Quote:
True, but we can't ignore that Paul eliminates Gentiles from the promises given to Abraham

Yeah right, you dont know what you talking about.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The BIBLE, the Holy Spirit, and Paul, say that this part of the promise to Abraham belongs to Gentiles as well. He EXCLUDES the other promises made to Abraham, and isolates this one single promise. These aren't my words, these are the words of the Bible. Therefore, my statement is PROVEN.

I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm talking about the Bible. Let's see you support what you're saying with it.

rom 4:

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

How do you think this verse helps you?

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The BIBLE, the Holy Spirit, and Paul, say that this part of the promise to Abraham belongs to Gentiles as well. He EXCLUDES the other promises made to Abraham, and isolates this one single promise. These aren't my words, these are the words of the Bible. Therefore, my statement is PROVEN.

All the promises God gave to the fathers have been fulfilled dude..

acts 13:

30But God raised him from the dead:

31And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

Quote:
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
The BIBLE, the Holy Spirit, and Paul, say that this part of the promise to Abraham belongs to Gentiles as well. He EXCLUDES the other promises made to Abraham, and isolates this one single promise. These aren't my words, these are the words of the Bible. Therefore, my statement is PROVEN.

All the promises God gave to the fathers have been fulfilled dude..

If that's the case, then why haven't you addressed the scripture I listed for you? Why didn't you explain why God said He would give it sa an "EVERLASTING POSSESSION"? Here it is again for you;

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.

acts 13:
30But God raised him from the dead:
31And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Notice that this verse (32) says PROMISE, as in a single promise, which supports what I'm telling you. These verses reiterate the point Paul makes that Gentiles receive the single promise that has been fulfilled by Jesus. This says NOTHING about the promises, and you seem to be trying to expand the verse beyond what is written when you make that stretch. We're not disagreeing about the promise, we're disagreeing about the promises being fulfilled... "dude".

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

@ beloved57

Quote:
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
The BIBLE, the Holy Spirit, and Paul, say that this part of the promise to Abraham belongs to Gentiles as well. He EXCLUDES the other promises made to Abraham, and isolates this one single promise. These aren't my words, these are the words of the Bible. Therefore, my statement is PROVEN.


If that's the case, then why haven't you addressed the scripture I listed for you? Why didn't you explain why God said He would give it sa an "EVERLASTING POSSESSION"? Here it is again for you;

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.


Notice that this verse (32) says PROMISE, as in a single promise, which supports what I'm telling you. These verses reiterate the point Paul makes that Gentiles receive the single promise that has been fulfilled by Jesus. This says NOTHING about the promises, and you seem to be trying to expand the verse beyond what is written when you make that stretch. We're not disagreeing about the promise, we're disagreeing about the promises being fulfilled... "dude".

God Bless!

You dont understand scripture, you are duped..

 

[ddub85]

You dont understand scripture, you are duped..

Since you understand scripture so well, then why don't you explain it for me? Use scripture (as I have), and make it simple and plain. Explain how Gentiles become Israel, explain how Gentiles have all of the promises, explain how the promises to "ethnic Israel" (you still haven't explained who that is) are all fulfilled, and the other "things" you have presented.

If you can't do that, (and you can't), then I'm not the one who has been duped!

Think about it...

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

Since you understand scripture so well, then why don't you explain it for me? Use scripture (as I have), and make it simple and plain. Explain how Gentiles become Israel, explain how Gentiles have all of the promises, explain how the promises to "ethnic Israel" (you still haven't explained who that is) are all fulfilled, and the other "things" you have presented.

If you can't do that, (and you can't), then I'm not the one who has been duped!

Think about it...

God Bless!

i have showed you enough scripture, at this point you are reprobated, until God gives you newbirth you will remain confused as a betsy bug..lol

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

i have showed you enough scripture,

Scripture that you can't explain, that doesn't help your position. You're listing scriptures that support what I'm saying! Not only that, but you have no answers for the scriptures I list. You have totally avoided Gen. 17:8 after you requested scripture which shows promises unfulfilled.

Yet you have the audacity to say you've shown enough scripture?

at this point you are reprobated, until God gives you newbirth you will remain confused as a betsy bug..lol

I don't know who has given you what you have, but what you're expousing surely isn't the God of the Bible, as proven by the fact that you can't explain your position biblically, nor can you deal with scriputures that oppose what you're saying.

It's a common thing for those who can't defend their position to pretend that those who hold them to the truth are confused. But those who can read and comprehend know quite well who is confused.

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

Scripture that you can't explain, that doesn't help your position. You're listing scriptures that support what I'm saying! Not only that, but you have no answers for the scriptures I list. You have totally avoided Gen. 17:8 after you requested scripture which shows promises unfulfilled.

Yet you have the audacity to say you've shown enough scripture?

You will see you have been decieved when jesus comes, the devil has blinded your eyes, and of course its Gods will that you be blinded, in fact, God is the one who has sent you a strong delusion in order that you believe a lie..

2 thess 2:

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[ddub85]

You will see you have been decieved when jesus comes, the devil has blinded your eyes, and of course its Gods will that you be blinded, in fact, God is the one who has sent you a strong delusion in order that you believe a lie..

2 thess 2:

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Ohhh! I get it!

Anyone who doesn't believe your made-up story which you can't support with the Bible, is delusional. On top of that, God is the one giving the delusion to people on your behalf. I'm so glad you cleared that up.

Your story sounds great until someone asks you to prove it, or verify it with the Bible. You've proven that you can't do that. And now you've resorted to condemning me as a defense mechanism.

Sad.

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

Ohhh! I get it!

Anyone who doesn't believe your made-up story which you can't support with the Bible, is delusional. On top of that, God is the one giving the delusion to people on your behalf. I'm so glad you cleared that up.

Your story sounds great until someone asks you to prove it, or verify it with the Bible. You've proven that you can't do that. And now you've resorted to condemning me as a defense mechanism.

Sad.

You are blinded to the truth sir..you best hope you an elect..

 

[ddub85]

You are blinded to the truth sir..you best hope you an elect..

If what you wrote so far is what you consider the truth, I'm better off being blind, deaf, and dumb. Just consider all of the things you said, and simply can't logically respond to;

1) You created a fictitious "ethnic Israel".
2) You then misstated that all promises to ethnic Israel (whomever they may be) are fulfilled.
3) You have absolutely no answer for an everlasting possession fulfillment (Gen. 17:8).
4) You have no explanation as to how Gentiles "mysteriously" become Israel, become Jews.
5) You have no explanation as to how Gentiles receive all of the promises.
6) You have no explanation as to why Gentiles receive what we've been assigned.
7) You have no response to the fact that Jews are the circumcision and Gentiles are the uncircumcision,...

If this were a boxing match, this would already be a technical knockout as you already have a standing 8 count.

Need I say more? Your only response is to feign some kind of positional superiority. That is THE true sign of a weeak argument. If I were you, I'd RUN from this conversation, and maybe let someone with a little more knowledge and understanding have at it, as you're doing more damage to your position than good.

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

If what you wrote so far is what you consider the truth, I'm better off being blind, deaf, and dumb.

And you are, and that by the will of God ! Not a good omen for you sir..

rev 22:

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[heymikey80]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
The farce is you saying that whatever is in Christ is yours.

Offend in what way? Do you believe that or not? How is that offensive? Please explain.

You're saying you aren't offended by someone saying you're a farce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
One solid proof that you're wrong is that Gentiles, as joint-heirs, receive what they've been ALLOTTED, not whatever is in Christ. That's what the Bible says. You, however, are saying something totally different from what the Bible says.

What you believe is that Gentiles receive all of the promises (do you not?), and the Bible never says that. That belief isn't in Ep 2.

All the promises in Christ are yes to you and me.

The distinction in [promises | promise] is artificial, hit-upon solely to satisfy a theology. Demonstrate which promises Paul meant did not extend to Gentiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
Only according to the bible of heymikey. The REAL Bible says no such thing. I CHALLENGE YOU to show proof of what you're saying. Let's see how you support what you say (although I already know that you can't).

So... now you want to say Ep 2 says those in Christ receive all of the promises? That is a farce. It simply isn't the truth. That is a complete misrepresentation of Ep 2.

It is the truth. If you're a fellow-citizen with the citizens of Israel in the nation of God, what promises devolve to you that are any differently extended to Israel by God?

Fellowheir sygklēronomos (Strong's 4789) 1) a fellow heir, a joint heir
2) one who obtains something "ASSIGNED" to himself with others, a joint participant

A) Therefore, this verse says Gentiles are those who obtain what is ASSIGNED to us.

Doesn't follow. If we're assigned the same as the others, along with the others, that makes us equal parties in the inheritance.

And that's what Paul says.

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Of course, you'll obsess on the fact that "promise" is singular. It doesn't mean what you think it means. Demonstrate Biblically that's what it means and we'll talk. Otherwise, the assertion isn't found in the Bible.

B) "partakers of THE PROMISE"(singular)... not promises (plural).

You say we receive all promises, Ep 3:6 says we Gentiles receive what we've been ASSIGNED. You say we are partakers of all of the promise, Ep 3:6 says we are partakers of the one promise. Yet, you attempt to use this verse as your proof. Go figure.

No, I've already pointed out Paul uses "promises" elsewhere in Scripture to refer to us. He's not making the distinction you want him to make.

And you totally ignored my response to your misrepresentation of this scripture. Here it is again;
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been...
A) "brought near by the blood of Christ."
B) "made Israel, and are now Israelites."
Let's see...

I've no idea where you said, it, but it's no misrepresentation. We're made one new man by Christ's blood. Try to award different promises to parts of one man.

It can't be done.

We're not made national Israel any more than God really wished to make a nation like the Gentile nations. He didn't. So we're not.

But then, national Israel isn't what God wanted it to be.

We are. We're one. We're the nation God made promises to.

A) fellow citizens
B) Israel, and privy to all of the promises.
Let's see...

Ultimately, as you're saying it, we're second-class citizens in the nation of God. The Jewish people get multitudes of promises from God, we poor Gentiles, but one.

No. I'm much more comfortable recognizing that God made promises to the nation, the people, that God created and chose out of the world. He's not that obsessed with what those He didn't chose, did with His promises (cf. Rom 9 soc, Rom 11 soc).