New Covenant

[heymikey80]

"If my statements were shaking, you surely would have answered the questions I asked on the subject, rather than avoiding them and pretending like they're beneath you. I think it's quite obvious who's shaking. You realize that Isaac is under the Abrahamic Covenant, and that is our connection. So why not just answer the questions? You can't, can you? Here they are again;

How are we parties to the covenant? How is our connection to the covenant different from Isaac's? Is Isaac somehow NOT the seed of Abraham? Please explain. I'll wait."

You know that Christ is our connection with Abraham. He is the Seed. Scripture says this explicitly and flatly, in Galatians 3.

Our connection to the covenant is as parties it benefits by extension from the promises (cf. Gal 22). We don't receive the land Isaac inherited. We aren't circumcised as specified by this covenant. We are parties blessed by the covenant with Abraham through Christ.

Yet we're beneficiaries. Figuratively. Like Isaac. Not as Isaac nor through Isaac.

Here's another question, another one of many, that you neglected;

"Why was this promise (Abrahamic) made to Gentiles, and never lived under by Gentiles?"

Oh, it's lived-under by Gentiles. But it's lived-under through the fulfilment of a promise, a promise made to Abraham that we'd be his children and his heirs.

Abe received a promise. The fulfilment of the promise lies in the New Covenant.

So many unanswered questions by you, and you dwell on a point that was made long ago, one that hasn't changed or waivered. You're attempting to hold on to anything you can hold on to that will release you from this discussion. It's time to face the truth.

Ah, so nice that you haven't admitted a thing, no wonder my point hasn't wavered. Your denial has been so persistent there's been no need.

And it continues. After volumes of your interpretation, my point sits there unanswered.

The reason I don't answer your questions is simple. (1) You don't answer mine. (2) You don't consider my answers. (3) My answers have no impact on your view. (4) The volume of your questions reveals a general lack of importance to any given question.

You presume I don't answer because I can't. But I don't answer because it's not important to answer your questions. It accomplishes nothing.

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
"If my statements were shaking, you surely would have answered the questions I asked on the subject, rather than avoiding them and pretending like they're beneath you. I think it's quite obvious who's shaking. You realize that Isaac is under the Abrahamic Covenant, and that is our connection. So why not just answer the questions? You can't, can you? Here they are again;
How are we parties to the covenant? How is our connection to the covenant different from Isaac's? Is Isaac somehow NOT the seed of Abraham? Please explain. I'll wait."

You know that Christ is our connection with Abraham. He is the Seed. Scripture says this explicitly and flatly, in Galatians 3.
Our connection to the covenant is as parties it benefits by extension from the promises (cf. Gal 22).

False statement. The Bible never says Gentiles are a part of the PROMISES. When Gentiles are mentioned to Abraham, it is in connection with the SINGLE PROMISE. Everytime thereafter in the Bible, Gentiles are only connected to the SINGLE PROMISE. You attempting to connect Gentiles with the promises is untrue, and manufactured by you, having nothing to do with the Bible.

We don't receive the land Isaac inherited. We aren't circumcised as specified by this covenant. We are parties blessed by the covenant with Abraham through Christ.
Yet we're beneficiaries. Figuratively. Like Isaac. Not as Isaac nor through Isaac.

No, according to Paul, we are beneficiaries LITERALLY of the SINGLE PROMISE made to us through Abraham. Again, what you say is false.

Not only am I telling you what you're saying is false, I'm PROVING it is false. I'm not making false statements, and not being able to substantiate them. I can prove what I say. That is one of the major differences between you and I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
Here's another question, another one of many, that you neglected;
"Why was this promise (Abrahamic) made to Gentiles, and never lived under by Gentiles?"

Oh, it's lived-under by Gentiles. But it's lived-under through the fulfilment of a promise, a promise made to Abraham that we'd be his children and his heirs.
Abe received a promise. The fulfilment of the promise lies in the New Covenant.

A classic example of a false statement unsubstantiated by the Bible. These are just things that you invent. They have nothing to do with the Bible. The Bible says NOTHING about a promise to Gentiles being fulfilled in the New Covenant. That's a lie. You just made that up.

That's one of the major differences between you and I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
So many unanswered questions by you, and you dwell on a point that was made long ago, one that hasn't changed or waivered. You're attempting to hold on to anything you can hold on to that will release you from this discussion. It's time to face the truth.

Ah, so nice that you haven't admitted a thing, no wonder my point hasn't wavered. Your denial has been so persistent there's been no need.

I'm not the one denying you, it's scripture that denies you. That's why you can't substantiate what you say with the Bible.

And it continues. After volumes of your interpretation, my point sits there unanswered.
The reason I don't answer your questions is simple. (1) You don't answer mine.

Another lie.

(2) You don't consider my answers.

I don't only consider them, I show you why they're false with scripture. That's another major difference between you and I.

(3) My answers have no impact on your view.

Why would they since they're not substantiated by the Bible?

(4) The volume of your questions reveals a general lack of importance to any given question.

The volume??? Too much for you? Then by all means, just answer a few. A couple. Then we can go in depth on those few, couple,... whatever. Personally, I think you're just making excuses.

You presume I don't answer because I can't. But I don't answer because it's not important to answer your questions. It accomplishes nothing.

-Now I'm sure you're just making excuses. You have no answers because your position is non-biblical.

God Bless!

 

[heymikey80]

To answer your first "false statement" objection again, after multiple exchanges about it:

As surely as God is faithful, our word to you has not been Yes and No. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we proclaimed among you, Silvanus and Timothy and I, was not Yes and No, but in him it is always Yes. For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. 2 Cor 1:18-20

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1
​

Scripture hasn't changed. It appears your view hasn't changed, either. It's not worth arguing over. All it does is result in your view shortchanging what Scripture says. That's another reason why I don't respond in detail. You have the detail. All you really need to refer to is in the myriad postings here.

As for your allegations of my lying, you've leapt from neglecting my challenges into challenging me to answer yours. And the fact is you've maintained your assertions about Scripture in the face of its explicit statements in the other direction.

You're free to construct your own thoughts how this works. That's not my agenda. I'll continue to rely on Scripture for how God is thinking about it.

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey

To answer your first "false statement" objection again, after multiple exchanges about it:
As surely as God is faithful, our word to you has not been Yes and No. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we proclaimed among you, Silvanus and Timothy and I, was not Yes and No, but in him it is always Yes. For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. 2 Cor 1:18-20

This scripture very clearly states that the promises are in HIM (JESUS CHRIST)! You are not Jesus Christ! This says NOTHING about Gentiles receiving promises. That is a farce, and that is what you're attempting to say.

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1

And what promises are being spoken of here? We only need to read the previous verses;
2Cr 6:17 ...and I will receive you,
2Cr 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

These are the PROMISES being spoken of in 2Cr 7:1. This has NOTHING to do with the promises we're speaking about. You're clearly attempting to use this verse well out of context. That much is surely obvious.

Scripture hasn't changed.

Now you are speaking the truth. And this plain truth is destroying your argument.

It appears your view hasn't changed, either. It's not worth arguing over. All it does is result in your view shortchanging what Scripture says. That's another reason why I don't respond in detail. You have the detail. All you really need to refer to is in the myriad postings here.

The reason you don't respond in detail is because you get exposed as not speaking what is true, just like the above exchange in which you made an attempt at scriptural detail. You deliberately pulled the scriptures out of context, and hoped that you would get away with it. You should know better.

As for your allegations of my lying, you've leapt from neglecting my challenges into challenging me to answer yours. And the fact is you've maintained your assertions about Scripture in the face of its explicit statements in the other direction.

What is explicit, as displayed above, is that you are attempting to misrepresent what the Bible says in order to perpetrate your false position. The word "promises" in 2Cr 7:1 has nothing to do with what you're attempting to associate it with. That would make your statement false. How do you want me to characterize that? 2Cr 1:18-20 says the promises are in Christ, and says nothing about Gentiles having the promises, as you assert. That, again, makes your statements false. How would you like me to characterize that? Did you make these false statements unknowingly, or did you knowingly make these false statements? If you did so unknowingly, I do apologize for calling you a liar.

Otherwise,...

You're free to construct your own thoughts how this works.

I'm not constructing anything, I'm only stating what the Bible says. You, on the other hand, as proven above, are "constructing" statements outside of what the Bible says.

That's not my agenda. I'll continue to rely on Scripture for how God is thinking about it.

If you're relying on scripture, then please stop falsifying it like you attempted above.

God Bless!

 

[heymikey80]

This scripture very clearly states that the promises are in HIM (JESUS CHRIST)! You are not Jesus Christ! This says NOTHING about Gentiles receiving promises. That is a farce, and that is what you're attempting to say.

This is the farce: that anything that's "in Christ" isn't "to you".

The promises are "to you" just as the answers are "to you". Paul's whole reason for bringing up God's promises is because Paul's answers were all "Yes."

But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. 2 Cor 1:18
​

I noticed you missed citing the promises in this case:

For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our praise to the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20
​

And what promises are being spoken of here? We only need to read the previous verses;
2Cr 6:17 ...and I will receive you,
2Cr 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As pointed out before, most of the first part of 2 Corinthians concerns things we've received. Asserting it's one promise or another is your opinion.

This has NOTHING to do with the promises we're speaking about.

I simply assert that your limiting this to "ONE PROMISE" is a meaningless assertion. You can't demonstrate it. It doesn't mean the promise is limited.

Yeah, find the separateness in Scripture. Just saying "a promise" doesn't comment on other promises. You're saying verses that vacate this "one promise" idea are irrelevant. Well they're entirely relevant. That's why Paul can point to our unity, not our separation.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Ep 2:11-22
​

Now you are speaking the truth. And this plain truth is destroying your argument.

Vacuous statement without meaning or support.

The reason you don't respond in detail is because you get exposed as not speaking what is true, just like the above exchange in which you made an attempt at scriptural detail. You deliberately pulled the scriptures out of context, and hoped that you would get away with it. You should know better.

I've already responded, in detail, and you've just continued to complain about lack of detail.

Well tell you what. Come up with another argument. Your arguments have already been shown false in prior threads. Don't expect me to repeat the error at length every time you restate the falsehood. I don't have the time. And it's not worth the energy. You're not listening.

What is explicit, as displayed above, is that you are attempting to misrepresent what the Bible says in order to perpetrate your false position. The word "promises" in 2Cr 7:1 has nothing to do with what you're attempting to associate it with.

You're the one who's picked what "promise" is supposed to be associated with. I assert you shouldn't have done that. You have no cause to do so. But when Scripture smashes right through what you think "should not be", don't come attacking me. You picked what the "promise" should be. It's not Scripture that's overthrown. It's your theological proposal.

It's gone. Live with it.

That would make your statement false. How do you want me to characterize that? 2Cr 1:18-20 says the promises are in Christ, and says nothing about Gentiles having the promises, as you assert.

A Greek-speaker would beg to differ. "in" is instrumental in Greek. It means Christ is the instrument by which the promises are delivered.

It's the only way to make sense of Paul's reasoning here.

But whatever. Paul's reasoning doesn't seem to enter into your argument.

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey80

This is the farce: that anything that's "in Christ" isn't "to you".

The farce is you saying that whatever is in Christ is yours. One solid proof that you're wrong is that Gentiles, as joint-heirs, receive what they've been ALLOTTED, not whatever is in Christ. That's what the Bible says. You, however, are saying something totally different from what the Bible says.

The promises are "to you" just as the answers are "to you".

Only according to the bible of heymikey. The REAL Bible says no such thing. I CHALLENGE YOU to show proof of what you're saying. Let's see how you support what you say (although I already know that you can't).

Paul's whole reason for bringing up God's promises is because Paul's answers were all "Yes."
But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. 2 Cor 1:18

That's your proof? That's how you support having all of the promises in Christ??? ROFL!!! This in no way says Gentiles receive all of the promises. In Gal. 3, Paul specifically pulls out ONE SINGLE PROMISE and says it's allotted to the Gentiles. He pulls it from amongst several promises, and NEVER mentions, in any book, these promises in association with Gentiles. He specifically EXCLUDES them from Gentiles. But the bibleofheymikey has dccided to include them. Go figure.

I noticed you missed citing the promises in this case:
For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our praise to the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

I missed? I missed nothing. The promises in Christ are yes, they just aren't all to the Gentiles. The Gentiles receive what we've been allotted, which is exactly what the Bible says. You're attempting to say something different, something other than what the Bible says.

As pointed out before, most of the first part of 2 Corinthians concerns things we've received. Asserting it's one promise or another is your opinion.

As pointed out before, the ONLY promise we're allotted is the one Paul points out in Gal 3, and all that goes along with it. These are the things listed in 2Cor.

I simply assert that your limiting this to "ONE PROMISE" is a meaningless assertion. You can't demonstrate it. It doesn't mean the promise is limited.

It's an irrelevant point, one of those red herrings that don't really pertain to what we're discussing. If there are "promises" to Gentiles that don't pertain to the promise Paul lists, then by all means, bring them. So far you haven't.

Yeah, find the separateness in Scripture. Just saying "a promise" doesn't comment on other promises. You're saying verses that vacate this "one promise" idea are irrelevant.

That's not what I'm saying at all. They're very relevant, but they're not relevant in showing Gentiles receive all the promises. That is a false, inaccurate, non-scriptural statement. THAT is what I'm saying. The Bible NEVER says Gentiles receive all of the promises, yet you want to somehow make that false statement true. THAT is what I'm saying.

Well they're entirely relevant. That's why Paul can point to our unity, not our separation.

That's great, but the relevant thing to our conversation is Paul pointing to the ONE PROMISE at the exclusion of the other promises. Paul points to this one promise as the promise to Gentiles that includes Christ, the Holy Spirit, and all the unity we will ever need.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been...

A) "brought near by the blood of Christ."
B) "made Israel, and are now Israelites."

Let's see...

brought near by the blood of Christ.

So the correct answer is A. Yet, you want to pretend that the correct answer is B. That IS NOT what Paul says, but it's what you say, and what you say that he says. See the problem? I do.

For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are...

A) fellow citizens
B) Israel, and privy to all of the promises.

Let's see...

fellow citizens

Yet, you pretend as if it says what B says.

... with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Ep 2:11-22

If we take what Paul says and stay away from what we WANT scripture to say, we will see the truth. The truth is that this verse in no way says Gentiles are Israel, or that Gentiles have all of the promises.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
Now you are speaking the truth. And this plain truth is destroying your argument.

Vacuous statement without meaning or support.

\
The meaning is that scripture hasn't changed, but you attempt to change it when you say that Gentiles have all of the promises, or that Gentiles are and/or become Israel.

Nothing vacuous about that. Very specific I would say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
The reason you don't respond in detail is because you get exposed as not speaking what is true, just like the above exchange in which you made an attempt at scriptural detail. You deliberately pulled the scriptures out of context, and hoped that you would get away with it. You should know better.

I've already responded, in detail, and you've just continued to complain about lack of detail.

You respond by saying things that the Bible doesn't say, like what is in Christ is automatically ours. You have no biblical means of supporting that false statement, but you tell it to others as if it's true. When I sy lack of detail, I'm speaking of lack of BIBLICAL detail.

Well tell you what. Come up with another argument.

Wouldn't that be great for you? You can't support this one, so let's just come up with another.

Your arguments have already been shown false in prior threads.

What thread? What argument has been shown false? Let's see if you're actually telling the truth, or if you're just talking out of the side of your neck. Either you're telling the truth about this, or you're not. Prove you're telling the truth. What thread? What argument has been shown false? Let's see. Or will it be the same as always? False accusations with no proof?

Don't expect me to repeat the error at length every time you restate the falsehood. I don't have the time. And it's not worth the energy. You're not listening.

Blahblahblahblahblahblah... Translation: Please save me from this argument where I'm being exposed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
What is explicit, as displayed above, is that you are attempting to misrepresent what the Bible says in order to perpetrate your false position. The word "promises" in 2Cr 7:1 has nothing to do with what you're attempting to associate it with.

You're the one who's picked what "promise" is supposed to be associated with.

No, that would be Paul in Gal 3:7-9.
**

I assert you shouldn't have done that. You have no cause to do so. But when Scripture smashes right through what you think "should not be", don't come attacking me. You picked what the "promise" should be. It's not Scripture that's overthrown. It's your theological proposal.

--
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

THIS... should not be? Paul picked the promise, it's his theological proposal. I believe it. You don't?

It's gone. Live with it.

This is in no way gone, and we will all live with it, whether we like it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
That would make your statement false. How do you want me to characterize that? 2Cr 1:18-20 says the promises are in Christ, and says nothing about Gentiles having the promises, as you assert.

A Greek-speaker would beg to differ. "in" is instrumental in Greek. It means Christ is the instrument by which the promises are delivered.

Paul would beg to differ (is he a Greek speaker?). Paul says we Gentiles receive what we've been allotted, and he allots us the one promise, pulled away from many promises. You seem to be avoiding these BIBLICAL facts like the plague. Greek, Hebrew, Spanish, English,... these facts just don't change.

Sorry.

It's the only way to make sense of Paul's reasoning here.
But whatever. Paul's reasoning doesn't seem to enter into your argument.

Paul's "reasoning" is very clear. AS a matter of fact, he very clearly states what he means. He says we Gentiles receive what we've been allotted, and he shows us directly the promise we've been allotted. What could be more clear?

Oh, you mean where YOU "reason" that Gentiles receive all of the promises when the Bible never says so? Or do you mean where YOU "reason" that we Gentiles become/are Israel?

Hmmm...

God Bless!

 

[heymikey80]

The farce is you saying that whatever is in Christ is yours.

Quit offending forum rules.

One solid proof that you're wrong is that Gentiles, as joint-heirs, receive what they've been ALLOTTED, not whatever is in Christ. That's what the Bible says. You, however, are saying something totally different from what the Bible says.

Which I quoted in Ep 2.

Only according to the bible of heymikey. The REAL Bible says no such thing. I CHALLENGE YOU to show proof of what you're saying. Let's see how you support what you say (although I already know that you can't).

I already had. Ep 2

That's your proof? That's how you support having all of the promises in Christ??? ROFL!!! This in no way says Gentiles receive all of the promises. In Gal. 3, Paul specifically pulls out ONE SINGLE PROMISE and says it's allotted to the Gentiles. He pulls it from amongst several promises, and NEVER mentions, in any book, these promises in association with Gentiles. He specifically EXCLUDES them from Gentiles. But the bibleofheymikey has dccided to include them. Go figure.

Ephesians 2 isn't in your Bible?

I missed? I missed nothing. The promises in Christ are yes, they just aren't all to the Gentiles. The Gentiles receive what we've been allotted, which is exactly what the Bible says. You're attempting to say something different, something other than what the Bible says.

And on it goes.

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Ep 3:6
​

Y'like to emphasize that this is a singular promise. Notice though that the nations are members of the same body. There's only one body. When that occurs, there nets only one party in the covenant involved. The promises made to this body is the same, Jew or Gentile.

And from what Paul said in Ep 2 just before this, that's awfully clear.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Ep 2:11-22​

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
The farce is you saying that whatever is in Christ is yours.

Quit offending forum rules.

Offend in what way? Do you believe that or not? How is that offensive? Please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
One solid proof that you're wrong is that Gentiles, as joint-heirs, receive what they've been ALLOTTED, not whatever is in Christ. That's what the Bible says. You, however, are saying something totally different from what the Bible says.

Which I quoted in Ep 2.

What you believe is that Gentiles receive all of the promises (do you not?), and the Bible never says that. That belief isn't in Ep 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
Only according to the bible of heymikey. The REAL Bible says no such thing. I CHALLENGE YOU to show proof of what you're saying. Let's see how you support what you say (although I already know that you can't).

I already had. Ep 2

So... now you want to say Ep 2 says those in Christ receive all of the promises? That is a farce. It simply isn't the truth. That is a complete misrepresentation of Ep 2.

Ephesians 2 isn't in your Bible?

And here we go with the farce again. You say Gentiles receive all of the promises, and Ep 2 DOES NOT. Yet, you use Ep 2 to validate your point. That is a total misrepresentation of the Bible. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is a total misrepresentation of God's word. Ep 2 doesn't say that Gentiles receive all of the promises. To say it does is to misrepresent the word of God.

And on it goes.
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Ep 3:6

Fellowheir sygklēronomos (Strong's 4789) 1) a fellow heir, a joint heir
2) one who obtains something "ASSIGNED" to himself with others, a joint participant
A) Therefore, this verse says Gentiles are those who obtain what is ASSIGNED to us.
B) "partakers of THE PROMISE"(singular)... not promises (plural).

You say we receive all promises, Ep 3:6 says we Gentiles receive what we've been ASSIGNED. You say we are partakers of all of the promise, Ep 3:6 says we are partakers of the one promise. Yet, you attempt to use this verse as your proof. Go figure.

And yes, it goes on and on.

Y'like to emphasize that this is a singular promise. Notice though that the nations are members of the same body. There's only one body. When that occurs, there nets only one party in the covenant involved. The promises made to this body is the same, Jew or Gentile.

Incorrect. There is one body, but the one body, Christ, includes both Jew and Gentile (you say "Jew or Gentile" yourself above). You're attempting to say that Gentiles somehow become Israel, and therefore all in Christ are Israel, and receive all of the promises. (Correct me if I'm misrepresenting your position). To your position, there are no Gentiles in Christ, as all become Israel. That is purely non-scriptural. For instance, if what you say is true, then all would have the law. But Paul makes it clear that we Gentiles in Christ DO NOT HAVE THE LAW. So your position is simply incorrect.
**

And from what Paul said in Ep 2 just before this, that's awfully clear.

And you totally ignored my response to your misrepresentation of this scripture. Here it is again;
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been...
A) "brought near by the blood of Christ."
B) "made Israel, and are now Israelites."
Let's see...

brought near by the blood of Christ.

So the correct answer is A. Yet, you want to pretend that the correct answer is B. That IS NOT what Paul says, but it's what you say, and what you say that he says. See the problem? I do.

For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are...

A) fellow citizens
B) Israel, and privy to all of the promises.
Let's see...

fellow citizens

Yet, you pretend as if it says what B says.

... with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Ep 2:11-22

If we take what Paul says and stay away from what we WANT scripture to say, we will see the truth. The truth is that this verse in no way says Gentiles are Israel, or that Gentiles have all of the promises.

What else you "forgot"-
1.

Vacuous statement without meaning or support.

The meaning is that scripture hasn't changed, but you attempt to change it when you say that Gentiles have all of the promises, or that Gentiles are and/or become Israel.

Nothing vacuous about that. Very specific I would say.

2. You respond by saying things that the Bible doesn't say, like what is in Christ is automatically ours. You have no biblical means of supporting that false statement, but you tell it to others as if it's true. When I say lack of detail, I'm speaking of lack of BIBLICAL detail.
3. What thread? What argument has been shown false? Let's see if you're actually telling the truth, or if you're just talking out of the side of your neck. Either you're telling the truth about this, or you're not. Prove you're telling the truth. What thread? What argument has been shown false? Let's see. Or will it be the same as always? False accusations with no proof?

4.

You're the one who's picked what "promise" is supposed to be associated with.

No, that would be Paul in Gal 3:7-9.

God Bless!

 

[savedbygrace57]

If we take what Paul says and stay away from what we WANT scripture to say, we will see the truth. The truth is that this verse in no way says Gentiles are Israel, or that Gentiles have all of the promises.

So what does this verse mean ? and to whom is it addressed ?

2 cor 1:

20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[ddub85]

@ savedbygrace57

Quote:
If we take what Paul says and stay away from what we WANT scripture to say, we will see the truth. The truth is that this verse in no way says Gentiles are Israel, or that Gentiles have all of the promises.

So what does this verse mean ? and to whom is it addressed ?
2 cor 1:
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

This verse says that all of the promises are in Christ. It DOES NOT say that all of the promises are in, or for all in Christ, and that is the point we're discussing here.
The point I've been emphasizing is the fact that we Gentiles are "fellowheirs". As fellowheirs, we are to receive the promises assigned to us. What has been assigned is what Paul points out in Gal. 3:7-9. That is at the exclusion of the other promises made to Abraham. When these other promises are considered, it's easy to see that they don't pertain to us Gentiles, as we have no need for them. We have all we need in what we've been assigned.

I believe it is addressed to all, as it is a general statement about all of the promises being in Christ. Who receives what will be in the hands of the Mediator.
Thanks for joining in! I hope you continue to contribute.

God Bless!

 

[savedbygrace57]

This verse says that all of the promises are in Christ.

All the promises of God

 

[ddub85]

All the promises of God

All the promises of God. Correct.

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

All the promises of God. Correct.

God Bless!

All the promises of God to Israel are fulfilled in Christ, there are no more promises for ethnic Israel..

 

[ddub85]

All the promises of God to Israel are fulfilled in Christ, there are no more promises for ethnic Israel..

Are you quoting a verse? If so, which one?

If not, is this just your own personal thoughts on the subject? How do you come to such a conclusion?

Also, what is "ethnic" Israel? I see Israel as those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I know of no other Israel. Is that "ethnic Israel"? Is there some other Israel? If so, please define them for me.

In terms of "no more promises for ethnic Israel", if Israel has no more promises, then what is Hbr 10:36 speaking of?

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

Are you quoting a verse? If so, which one?

If not, is this just your own personal thoughts on the subject? How do you come to such a conclusion?

Hows this verse ?

2 cor 2:

20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

All promises to Gods covenant people Israel are fulfilled in christ..

Paul the apostle to the gentiles understood this sir acts 26:

1Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:

2I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
3Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
4My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Paul combines this jewish history with His purpose of christ calling:


9I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient

Because this was a mystery , that both Jews and gentiles were the true Israel , the true Jews , whose hope was in the resurrection..

All the patriarchal promises were centered in Jesus christ..

rom 15:

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

 

[beloved57]

In terms of "no more promises for ethnic Israel", if Israel has no more promises, then what is Hbr 10:36 speaking of?

eternal inheritance..

heb 9:

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The same as 1pet 1:

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

We know peter spoke to gentiles in this passage because of this verse 1pet 2:

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Both elect jews and gentiles have the same hope of eternal inheritance through christ..

rom 8:


14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

Hows this verse ?
2 cor 2:
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
All promises to Gods covenant people Israel are fulfilled in christ..

All promises are "fulfilled" in Christ? That's not included in the scripture you list. That's simply NOT what the scripture you list says.

Paul the apostle to the gentiles understood this sir acts 26:
1Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
2I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
3Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
4My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
Paul combines this jewish history with His purpose of christ calling:

9I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient
Because this was a mystery , that both Jews and gentiles were the true Israel , the true Jews , whose hope was in the resurrection..

If this is true, "that both Jews and gentiles were the true Israel", then why doesn't any of the verses you list say so? Why is this not stated in the Bible at all? There are NO VERSES... NONE! which say what you're saying. The verses you list don't even hint at such a thing. What you're saying is still a mystery.

What Paul does say is that we Bentiles are a part of the promise given to Abraham, the specific promise listed in Gal 3:7-9. There is no mention anywhere of us being called Israel in these verses, or anywhere else in the Bible. Is this some kind of private mysterious revelation that God is giving only to a certain few not mentioned in the Bible?

All the patriarchal promises were centered in Jesus christ..
rom 15:
8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

I agree. However, Christ is the Mediator, and the Bible tells us that the promises will be given as they are ASSIGNED. The Bible says we Gentiles have been ASSIGNED the promise specified by Paul in Gal 3:7-9.
What you're listing does nothing to contest that fact.

God Bless!

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57
Quote:
In terms of "no more promises for ethnic Israel", if Israel has no more promises, then what is Hbr 10:36 speaking of?

eternal inheritance..
heb 9:
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The same as 1pet 1:
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
We know peter spoke to gentiles in this passage because of this verse 1pet 2:
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Both elect jews and gentiles have the same hope of eternal inheritance through christ..

And that is a promise yet to come, correct?

But we can be sure that Israel has promises to come;

Hbr 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
Hbr 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, AS YE SEE THE DAY APPROACHING.
This promise being spoken of is obviously yet to come for them.

God Bless!

 

[beloved57]

All promises are "fulfilled" in Christ? That's not included in the scripture you list. That's simply NOT what the scripture you list says.

There are no other promises save from whats in ot scripture, and all pointed to christ..

lk 24:

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So what promises are there outside of these writings that he did not fulfill..

and you still have not answered rom 15:

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

 

[ddub85]

@ beloved57

Quote:
All promises are "fulfilled" in Christ? That's not included in the scripture you list. That's simply NOT what the scripture you list says.

There are no other promises save from whats in ot scripture, and all pointed to christ..
lk 24:
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

In this scripture Christ makes it clear that He is talking about the promises concerning Him personally, the promises about His coming, life, death, and resurrection. He's clearly not speaking about promises to Israel.

So what promises are there outside of these writings that he did not fulfill..

Why don't we deal with this one;

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.

Are you saying that this land is now in the possession of Israel as an everlasting possession, or are you saying that God didn't mean what He said?

and you still have not answered rom 15:
8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

I just wasn't sure what you were looking for here, what you were looking for me to address. But as far as this verse goes, there are two things here that stand out as relevant to this conversation.

1) Jesus was a minister of "the circumcision". The circumcision is a name for Israel, those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It's a name that's at the EXCLUSION of Gentiles, who are referred to as the uncircumcision in contrast.

2) "The fathers" is in reference to the fathers of Israel, which is again at the exclusion of Gentiles.

God Bless!