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New Covenant

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LamorakDesGalis

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I want to know how you all feel about the following subject.

Since Christ established the New Covenant with God, does that mean that unless Jesus mentions something from the Old Testament specifically, we do not need to follow it? Or does that mean that we simply do not know whether or not to follow it?

I think a good way of looking at this is no so much the command as the principle behind it. Now there are certain explicit NT commands that are also found in the law (Mosaic covenant). These are often cited to support the principle or idea of the NT writer. For example, loving God and loving your neighbor is a principle that as a general "command," can be "fulfilled" by a variety of applications.

Personally I would never think to apply a principle from "do not muzzle your ox" in Deuteronomy 25:4. But Paul did exactly this in 1 Corinthians 9:9. Paul was explaining to the Corinthians that apostles have rights. It seems some Corinthians opposed giving support to the apostles. So Paul cites Deut 25:4

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." God is not concerned here about oxen, is he? 10 Or is he not surely speaking for our benefit? It was written for us, because the one plowing and threshing ought to work in hope of enjoying the harvest.

In verse 10 Paul applied the principle of "one who works" should also enjoy the fruits of the labor (or harvest). Now Paul wasn't talking to a Jewish-Christian only Corinthian congregation. The Corinthians was largely Gentile, so the law was not directly applicable to them. But Paul used the principle behind the command in Deut 25:4. Likewise I think we should also seek out the principles behind the "commands" - whether NT or OT.


LDG
 
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Eila

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The Spirit will not lead you to violate God's law. If a spirit is leading one to violate God's law, it is not His Spirit that is leading.

I think your definition of the law we are under is different than mine :) If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the old covenant law.
 
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heymikey80

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My question was not "What laws did Jesus say we should follow?" I merely asked if we should only follow things from the Old Testament that Jesus reiderated. For instance, Jesus mentions the Ten Commandments. We should follow those.
I'd go way further than that. May I? There are two big qualifications attached to the idea of covenant continuation. The first is the concept of fulfilment. The second is whether we got the stipulations of the first covenant understood rightly in the first place.

Still, the idea shown in Scripture is one of continuity, not separation.

However, Scripture also reveals how that continuity is to be accomplished in our time.

Fulfilment
There are mechanisms in the relationships between successive covenants allowing one covenant to supersede certain stipulations of other covenants. That mechanism is fulfillment. (cf. Gal 3:15ff)

And there are explicit means whereby the Other Party (um -- God) in the Covenant can declare such stipulations fulfilled.

The Spirit of God has done so. For instance in Acts 15 the Spirit led the Apostles to realize virtually the entirety of the ceremonial law was set aside for Gentiles.

Understanding
The New Testament points out that the purpose of the Old Covenant stipulations is what's primary, not the grammatical fulfilment of each case law (cf 2 Cor 3). The Apostles seem to have recognized that the Law itself had been dragged down into arguments over how it was stated, to the point of avoiding what it meant (cf. Mark 7). When that's done, certainly the Law no longer assumes its moral role. It's not enforcing itself morally.

Performing the Law was also presented as a critical component of salvation in Jesus' time. That's assuredly not the case. The Law has a different purpose than simply demanding we do it to live. It points out we can't do it (Rom 3:9-19 -- it tells us we can't!). So when it comes to salvation, this path is blocked by our sin. The Law knows this. The Law tells us. So don't think the Law is in the same role in Christianity as in First Century Judaism. Or later Judaism. It's not.

As it is, nine of the Ten Commandments are re-commanded in the New Testament. So even as we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the letter of the Law, we serve in the Spirit Who delivered His Law.


Now granted, you've asked a highly specific question -- do we follow the Law. There are myriad qualifications because (1) our understanding of the purpose of the Law is ... horrible and must be corrected by the Spirit on coming to Christ, and (2) many of the stipulations of the Old Covenant have been satisfied and thus brought to an end by the New Covenant.

So the argument seems to shift back & forth: "Do we nullify the Law by our faith? No way! We establish the Law!" Rom 3:31. But "But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit." Rom 7:6, And finally, "By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

I realize the answer seems to ping back & forth between "Yes! No! Yes!". But when you look into the details of each answer, you discover a very critical point. Christ upends the salvation we thought we were after. We're wrong. We're the ones who need correction. Rescue isn't based on the Law either way. We're not talking about "legalistic" or "outlaw" Christianity. We're talking about redemptive Christianity. And so the Perfect Lawkeeper was condemned to capital punishment as the Greatest Outlaw. It's going to sound confusing at first. But that's because we haven't heard it right before. (Is 59)
 
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Jerrysch

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I want to know how you all feel about the following subject.

Since Christ established the New Covenant with God, does that mean that unless Jesus mentions something from the Old Testament specifically, we do not need to follow it? Or does that mean that we simply do not know whether or not to follow it?

I would appreciate imput.

Thanks.

Where is the New covenant first spoken of and who are the parties involved?
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Where is the New covenant first spoken of and who are the parties involved?

Actually very vaguely in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Not called the New Covenant but ties into Jeremiah.

1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you,

2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul,

3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.

4 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you.

5 Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Marc
 
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Jerrysch

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Actually very vaguely in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Not called the New Covenant but ties into Jeremiah.

1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you,

2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul,

3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.

4 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you.

5 Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Marc

I think you have hit onto one of them, yet I did not have this one in mind, but indeed it does speak of it. Let the other person speak his point and then (for fun) what in this passage indicates to you that this is the new covenant. :wave:
 
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Jerrysch

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Fulfill does not mean to do away with, as Jesus told us and Paul points out:

Matt 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Lu 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love would never murder or covet another man's wife, nor would love steal and break God's laws; thus not breaking the ten commandments that are eternal and making love the fulfilling of the law in our lives would be the way to go.

The old Levitical laws concerning the sacrifice of animals no longer have to be observed because Jesus became the once and for all time sacrifice for sin. Common sense and the Holy Spirit's guidance shows us where to draw lines in obedience.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Why are only 10 considered eternal while the other 603 are not? (there were 613 commandments)
 
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Jerrysch

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Fulfill does not mean to do away with, as Jesus told us and Paul points out:

Matt 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

.

These commands you speak of to whom were they given and where is this presented in the Bible?
 
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Jerrysch

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I want to know how you all feel about the following subject.

Since Christ established the New Covenant with God, does that mean that unless Jesus mentions something from the Old Testament specifically, we do not need to follow it? Or does that mean that we simply do not know whether or not to follow it?

I would appreciate imput.

Thanks.

What does this mean: made this covenant with God?
 
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Jerrysch

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I want to know how you all feel about the following subject.

Since Christ established the New Covenant with God, does that mean that unless Jesus mentions something from the Old Testament specifically, we do not need to follow it? Or does that mean that we simply do not know whether or not to follow it?

I would appreciate imput.

Thanks.

This is a rather large tpoic, Much of the commands in the OT were given to ethnic Israel, but not all. Some were universal but not all. The best way to examine this is to determine who was being spoken to and to determine if a point is directly commanded to all men of all time or to a select group of "readers", all Scripture is for us but it is not written to all of us. By this I mean; if a person was to find a letter on the road and it said "My darling I love you and will give you all my monesy" that person who found the letter should not think that the writter of that letter really loves the finder of that letter, nor that the writter of the letter will give them all his money. But truths can be understood from this letter not written to "Us". 1) The person really loves the person he is addressed 2) He will give that person all his money.

When we read passages in the Scripture which were written directly to a particular people and consider it to be written to every one who reads the passage, we are like the person who finds that letter and thinks its provisions apply to him.
 
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Jerrysch

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I love Bible Gateway. Useful when those Protestants demand Scripture for everything. ;)

I dunno if there's anybody here who does this, but it really annoys me when I see people carrying around those little copies of the NT only, like it's all we need. Also, whenever I mention a passage from the OT, and someone responds "Oh, that's from the OT and I don't need to follow that." Arrrgh.

Many consider that the OT no longer applies, others consider that the church replaced Israel (as is taught in Cov. Theo.) Others do so because the NT alone is easy to put in your pocket it being a it smaller, but the real point is that all the Bible is the word of God and as such it is the authority for faith and practice.
 
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Jerrysch

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The old covenant is completed in Christ. Jesus followed the law and told the people to listen to the teachers of the law. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and issued in the new covenant when He died. The 10 commandments were the word of the old covenant.

We are now led by the Spirit. The Spirit convicts of sin - not the law.

Galatians is a good book to read to get the answers you are looking for.

If you follow the Spirit you have no use for the law. The Spirit will not lead you to sin.

I find this quote useful to understand how we are to live in the new covenant:

1 John 3 '8 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

Just for the record... what is this covenant you refer to as the old ovenant, where was it established in the OT and who were the parties in the arrangement?
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

Certaintly sounds like Commandment from the Old Testament.

Marc
 
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Eila

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Just for the record... what is this covenant you refer to as the old ovenant, where was it established in the OT and who were the parties in the arrangement?

The old covenant was the covenant made on Sinai with the Israelites.

Exodus 34 "27And the Lord said to Moses, Write these words, for after the purpose and character of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. 28Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he ate no bread and drank no water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."
 
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Eila

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Certaintly sounds like Commandment from the Old Testament.

Marc

Yes, it is similar, yet it is different.

John 13 " I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another."

The command is to agape love. The OC command was to love your neighbor. The NC command is to love your enemy with the God-kind of love.

Matthew 5 demonstrates this "43"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Matthew 5 demonstrates this "43"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."


No Matthew 5 doesn't demonstrate what you are referring too.

'You have that is was said' is referring to NOT the true meaning of but what man created.

Yeshua is giving the true spiritual meaning of the command that has always been.
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you was always if you truly loved your neighbor and God.

Where can you find
'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy' in the Word of God in the Old Testament?

Marc
 
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Eila

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No Matthew 5 doesn't demonstrate what you are referring too.

'You have that is was said' is referring to NOT the true meaning of but what man created.

Yeshua is giving the true spiritual meaning of the command that has always been.
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you was always if you truly loved your neighbor and God.

Where can you find
'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy' in the Word of God in the Old Testament?

Marc

Lev 19 "
17You shall not hate your brother in your heart; but you shall surely rebuke your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.
18You shall not take revenge or bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."

They were not to hate their brother - they were to love their neighbor.

In Psalm 139 David talks about hating his enemy.

Psalm 139 "19Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
20They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain!
21Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies.
"

So it was said in the OT to love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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So it was said in the OT to love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
That's what I said it was in the Old Testament.

Then where did "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy' come from is my point.

You said it was a new commandment.

But it wasn't a new commandment as you scriptually stated.

If one can study first century 'Judaism' you will discover that there was what is called halacha. What halacha is, is man's interpretation of the Torah. It is most common today in Judaism. Example being the 39 work prohibitions. Again these are what man created. Now does what man created always right? NO!

You have to study the New Testament especially on the historical events, the mindsets, the halacha of the day to get a better understanding to be able to put yourself in 'their shoes'.

So the new commandment is referring to the halacha LAW of the day.

It's obvious that the halacha of the day contradicted what the Torah said in Leviticus.

So when you read the New Testament it's important to differentiate what law or laws the Apostles and our Master are referring too. In our English translations it's hard to differentiate. What our minds default to when we see or hear Law is the written Torah or Old Testament. Not the case in the New Testament. Law is not a blanket to mean the Torah. Law can be referring to the Oral Torah, Halacha, etc.

Marc


 
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