New Covenant

[stranger]

I want to know how you all feel about the following subject.

Since Christ established the New Covenant with God, does that mean that unless Jesus mentions something from the Old Testament specifically, we do not need to follow it? Or does that mean that we simply do not know whether or not to follow it?

I would appreciate imput.

Thanks.

You are confusing the new covenant [Heb 8:8-12, Jer 31:31-34] with the new testament, the scrolls written after Jesus' death [like many others do]

The new covenant then was revealed to Israel's two Houses by God long before Jesus came , here it is :-

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus the new covenant is only with the Jews [House of Judah] and the lost [disappeared] House of Israel [who have been living as gentiles for millenia now], that is what the bible says... read it carefully because it is NOT what is taught in churches these days..

 

[GooberJIL]

According to v. 34 we should conclude that the time of the New Covenant has not come yet since we still need the five-fold ministry.

 

[stranger]

According to v. 34 we should conclude that the time of the New Covenant has not come yet since we still need the five-fold ministry.

Nay my friend, Jeremiah wrote this [assuming you mean Jer 31:34] hundreds of years before Jesus came...

What do you mean by 'five-fold ministry'?

 

[GooberJIL]

Nay my friend, Jeremiah wrote this [assuming you mean Jer 31:34] hundreds of years before Jesus came...

What do you mean by 'five-fold ministry'?

Are you saying, "Oh, that prophesy can't be for today, post-Cross: it was given before Jesus came!"?

Well here is the same passage put forth again in the NT and it was written post-Cross, explaining post-Cross things. Notice v.11

Hebrews 8:
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Just for clairity I'll repost this:

Jeremiah 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Virtually word for word in both testaments. Many churches are teaching that we are now under the "new covenant" NOW. These are the only two passages that speak of the "new covenant" and both plainly state, "in that day... they shall not teach... for all know me." Do all know Him now? Today? I don't think so, that is the purpose of the great commission and the NEED for the five fold ministry.

great commission/work of the ministry = "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

five fold ministry = apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers

Ephesians 4:
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Notice how v. 12 stands as being needful in the now, in this world, for "the perfecting of the saints," where we all creation is still imperfect?

This stands in stark contrast to the age of the new covenant when there will be no need to teach about God or preach the gospel to all creation, BECAUSE we will already be perfected when the new covenant takes affect.



Now, for the cherry on top!

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

In this contrast of the old and the new, the author plainly states that while the old is decayed and is worn out, it still has not gone away, but is only prepared to become non-existant.

 

[stranger]

." Do all know Him now? Today? I don't think so, that is the purpose of the great commission and the NEED for the five fold ministry.

Strangely you did not read your own quote :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall NOT TEACH every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Then you use this as a justification for teaching when it says NOT ????

Also read this carefully :-

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The New Covenant was already inaugurated:
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins



Marc

 

[GooberJIL]

Strangely you did not read your own quote :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall NOT TEACH every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

That's right stranger, under the new covenant there will be no teaching for all will know. Do all know Him today? Are we in need of instruction today? Are false teachers still a concern? Under the new covenant these things will not be an issue.

 

[GooberJIL]

The New Covenant was already inaugurated:
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sin.

Very good, Marc! Under the new covenant we will no longer need the shadow of things to come. Communion is a shadow of things to come.

Hebrews 8:
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he(Jesus) were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

In the reality of the everlasting, shadows (like water baptism and communion) will be gone because we will have the actual "heavenly things" in actuality.



Note: v.3 mentions gifts and sacrifices, BUT v.4 only mentions gifts. Sacrifices were a shadow, but they have been replaced by the perfect sacrifice on the Cross.

Hebrews 10:
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The temporary "stop-gap" measure has ended because the permanent and perfect has taken its perfect place.

 

[stranger]

That's right stranger, under the new covenant there will be no teaching for all will know. Do all know Him today? Are we in need of instruction today? Are false teachers still a concern? Under the new covenant these things will not be an issue.

My friend, when it says 'all' it is referring to all the House of Israel and the House of Judah... read the whole paragraph ...

and it say all will know Him ...

Thus the time comes when all whose fathers broke the old covenant do not teach each other ... very different from what you deduced ...

And thus all Israel will be saved , BOTH Houses of anciently divided Israel through their messiah ,their annointed king :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

NOTE who is ceasing to be ungodly, it is Jacob whom God re-named Israel ,and the whole of his descendants, the children of Israel are saved as a holy nation, its two stil-divided Houses, the Jews and the House of Israel, brought together under one king, as long ago prophesied, but forgotten and ignored by christians today :-

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

The OT is replete with this pophesy of the rejection and the acceptance and re-uniting of the House of Judah [Jews] with the paganised House of Israel, and yet you ignore God's own prophets and follow the teachings of sinners in modern churches... why?

 

[GooberJIL]

My friend, when it says 'all' it is referring to all the House of Israel and the House of Judah... read the whole paragraph ...

and it say all will know Him ...

Thus the time comes when all whose fathers broke the old covenant do not teach each other ... very different from what you deduced ...

And thus all Israel will be saved , BOTH Houses of anciently divided Israel through their messiah ,their annointed king :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

NOTE who is ceasing to be ungodly, it is Jacob whom God re-named Israel ,and the whole of his descendants, the children of Israel are saved as a holy nation, its two stil-divided Houses, the Jews and the House of Israel, brought together under one king, as long ago prophesied, but forgotten and ignored by christians today :-

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

The OT is replete with this pophesy of the rejection and the acceptance and re-uniting of the House of Judah [Jews] with the paganised House of Israel, and yet you ignore God's own prophets and follow the teachings of sinners in modern churches... why?

I surmise then that you do not consider yourself an adopted son or a part of Israel.

 

[stranger]

I surmise then that you do not consider yourself an adopted son or a part of Israel.

No-one knows who the lost people of the House of Israel are ... one would know however if one were given all truth of God [John 16:13]

 

[GooberJIL]

No-one knows who the lost people of the House of Israel are ... one would know however if one were given all truth of God [John 16:13]

I will take that for a "No."

 

[beloved57]

The new covenant ratified by the blood of christ ,christ has fulfilled and satisfied all the righteousness of the old covenant , and God accepts all what he did and accomplished for his chosen people..All of Gods elect are fully accepted and pure and blameless in his sight because of the blood of the new covenant..Jesus has obeyed every commandment perfectly for his people and it has been imputed to them...The elect come into the knowledge of this by faith when they have been born again...faith sees the new covenant blessings and rest in them, in the blood o the lamb..

 

[ddub85]

The new covenant ratified by the blood of christ ,christ has fulfilled and satisfied all the righteousness of the old covenant , and God accepts all what he did and accomplished for his chosen people..All of Gods elect are fully accepted and pure and blameless in his sight because of the blood of the new covenant..Jesus has obeyed every commandment perfectly for his people and it has been imputed to them...The elect come into the knowledge of this by faith when they have been born again...faith sees the new covenant blessings and rest in them, in the blood o the lamb..

@ beloved57

What you're saying isn't quite true. You need to take a closer look at Hbr 8:6, which says the Old Covenant was OBTAINED, and the New Covenant was ESTABLISHED. Consider that two different words are used in this verse, clearly indicating that there is a difference between the two. The difference is that one is OBTAINED (has happened, has been released), and the other has been ESTABLISHED (all requirements have been met for the event to take place).

We have to both acknowledge, and accept this difference. It's clear that the Old Covenant was obtained by the blood of Christ, and the New Covenant was established by that same blood of Christ.

God Bless!

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[GeratTzedek]

That's right stranger, under the new covenant there will be no teaching for all will know. Do all know Him today? Are we in need of instruction today? Are false teachers still a concern? Under the new covenant these things will not be an issue.

Hebrews 8 describes a time and a covenant which has not yet come into being. It is a description of the Messianic age yet to come. For example, the law isn't written on anyone's hearts -- we are all still sinful by nature.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hebrews 8 describes a time and a covenant which has not yet come into being. It is a description of the Messianic age yet to come. For example, the law isn't written on anyone's hearts -- we are all still sinful by nature.

But this doesn't mean we can't be participants in the NC as 'before the foundation of the world the Lamb was slain'.

Marc

 

[BigNorsk]

I want to know how you all feel about the following subject.

Since Christ established the New Covenant with God, does that mean that unless Jesus mentions something from the Old Testament specifically, we do not need to follow it? Or does that mean that we simply do not know whether or not to follow it?

I would appreciate imput.

Thanks.

The new convenant is specifically not specific. Instead of being a set of does and don'ts the very idea is to be controlled by God's grace and so we are controlled in our actions through love of God and man. It is not a set of rules or laws.

It is not so much that the old covenant was somehow destroyed, it was fulfilled. The priesthood which was a special class was done away with for the new priesthood where Jesus is the high priest and all believers are priests. We do not need a priest to go to God for us because we are one.

In addition the whole temple and animal sacrifices are done away with because the perfect has come and replaced them. To sacrifice an animal now would be to deny that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient.

So to dietary laws changed. When you follow through the bible, the clean and unclean food was teaching about God's people and those that were not. Since being God's people is not restricted to one tribe or nation now, all food are clean, for all peoples are clean.

We see some of the laws mentioned, but if you simply think of it, how far are you from the love of God when you go and murder people. Or break your marriage covnenant or gossip about people. Those things are not acts of love, they are acts of hatred. Anytime you are controlled by hate you are not following the new covenant.

So we see in the so called restatements this pattern. The old said do not murder, the new says he who hates is a murderer already. The old said do not commit adultery, but the new says he who lusts after another woman has already committed adultery, and on it goes, whether or not it is specifically stated as such.

Many people try to turn the new covenant into a covenant of law. They give all sorts of does and don'ts and sometimes even tie those things to salvation. Paul makes it clear what happens when people do such things, they fall from grace. And if you have fallen from grace then you are outside the new covenant and so you are once again trying to work your way to salvation and earn salvation as a workman earns his pay. An impossible feat for man.

Hope that helps make it clear.

Marv

 

[heymikey80]

The new covenant ratified by the blood of christ ,christ has fulfilled and satisfied all the righteousness of the old covenant , and God accepts all what he did and accomplished for his chosen people..All of Gods elect are fully accepted and pure and blameless in his sight because of the blood of the new covenant..Jesus has obeyed every commandment perfectly for his people and it has been imputed to them...The elect come into the knowledge of this by faith when they have been born again...faith sees the new covenant blessings and rest in them, in the blood o the lamb..

Yes.

But now Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. Heb 8:6-7
​

It says "now He has obtained a better ministry [service]". Why? Because the covenant He mediates is a better covenant which is enacted on better promises.

This better ministry than before (through the prior covenant) is baaed on the better covenant. This better service is already obtained -- a service obtained in a covenant means something is being done. The covenant is actually serving parties to the covenant. The covenant is enacted on promises. The covenant is enacted, its services are obtained. This covenant is up & running. The covenant is operating. Services are ongoing and the New Covenant promises are enacted.

The New Covenant is intended to fulfil as its goal what Jeremiah sets out in Jer 31. Did any covenant instantly achieve its goals on the first day? Was the land of Israel won that day on Mt. Sinai? No. So the goals of a covenant are its endpoint. The promises of the covenant are fulfilled during its ministry.

"This cup is the new covenant in my blood" Luke 22:20
​

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey

Your version of the verse has been reconstructed to promote a belief, rather than relying on what God actually said. For instance, it says "more excellent than the old", and "the old" isn't even written in the verse. Therefore, clearly it is an opinion, and NOT what God said.

The verse actually says He "obtained" a more excellent ministry, and ALSO He is the mediator of an "established" covenant. Notice that there are two different words, with two different meanings used for the two different covenants. That is a PROVEN fact, not an opinion.
Here is the verse in the KJV, followed by the Greek;

Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Lexicon / Concordance for Hbr 8:6
English Strong's Greek (Root form) Tense

But [1161] de
now [3570] nuni
hath he obtained [5177] tugchano
a more excellent [1313] diaphoros
ministry, [3009] leitourgia
by how much [3745] hosos
also [2532] kai
he is [2076] esti
the mediator [3316] mesites
of a better [2909] kreitton
covenant, [1242] diatheke
which [3748] hostis
was established [3549] nomotheteo
upon [1909] epi
better [2909] kreitton
promises. [1860] epaggelia

God Bless!

 

[RND]

The new convenant is specifically not specific. Instead of being a set of does and don'ts the very idea is to be controlled by God's grace and so we are controlled in our actions through love of God and man. It is not a set of rules or laws.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I wonder what these 'non-specific' laws might be.

It is not so much that the old covenant was somehow destroyed, it was fulfilled. The priesthood which was a special class was done away with for the new priesthood where Jesus is the high priest and all believers are priests. We do not need a priest to go to God for us because we are one.

This is true.

Question.

Were the laws that described and instituted the Levitical priesthood found on tablets of stone or in a book of the law?

In addition the whole temple and animal sacrifices are done away with because the perfect has come and replaced them. To sacrifice an animal now would be to deny that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient.

But of course the Temple sacrifices as part of the specific Mosaic ordinances, holydays and etc. were prescribed for the specific violation of the commandments of God. When one broke one of the ten commandments the remedy for sin was found in the 'ceremonies' that pointed to Christ.

So to dietary laws changed. When you follow through the bible, the clean and unclean food was teaching about God's people and those that were not. Since being God's people is not restricted to one tribe or nation now, all food are clean, for all peoples are clean.

Does that mean we can eat other people?

We see some of the laws mentioned, but if you simply think of it, how far are you from the love of God when you go and murder people. Or break your marriage covnenant or gossip about people. Those things are not acts of love, they are acts of hatred. Anytime you are controlled by hate you are not following the new covenant.

Did Jesus make mention that these laws have now been enhanced, i.e. hated is akin to murder?

So we see in the so called restatements this pattern. The old said do not murder, the new says he who hates is a murderer already. The old said do not commit adultery, but the new says he who lusts after another woman has already committed adultery, and on it goes, whether or not it is specifically stated as such.

Sounds to me like the 'law' has been enhanced and made even more perfect, not done away with.

Many people try to turn the new covenant into a covenant of law. They give all sorts of does and don'ts and sometimes even tie those things to salvation. Paul makes it clear what happens when people do such things, they fall from grace. And if you have fallen from grace then you are outside the new covenant and so you are once again trying to work your way to salvation and earn salvation as a workman earns his pay. An impossible feat for man.

Hope that helps make it clear.

I wonder if some people can be trusted to obey the speed limit laws exactly and to the "T" without having a cop on their tail all the time, or one even sitting right next to them.

Likewise, I wonder if there are people that can obey God's commandments in a similar fashion.