NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS ARE ISRAEL

[Guojing]

I was quoting James 2:26 directly

Yes I know. What I was speaking of is Jews had dead works. They tried to establish righteousness by works of the law. They were dead works. The Israel of God had works of faith.
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
LOL, just getting back to Israel vs Israel[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe we are the israel of God

it refers to the little flock of Jewish believers that James pastored over

 

[ralliann]

Yes I know. What I was speaking of is Jews had dead works. They tried to establish righteousness by works of the law. They were dead works. The Israel of God had works of faith.
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
LOL, just getting back to Israel vs Israel

I don’t believe we are the israel of God

it refers to the little flock of Jewish believers that James pastored over

Wow, sorry I think I did something to mess up our posts. I hope this will clear it up. Sorry.

 

[Davy]

I am telling you that you are committing a logical fallacy here.

Just because we in the Body of Christ are the "seed of Abraham" as described in Galatians 3, it is not logically equivalent to saying we are therefore Israel.

Ismael is also the seed of Abraham, but no one would say he must be Israel correct?

Sorry, but the fallacy is actually a tradition of men you've wrongly believed in. You've been taught to think of the name 'Israel' as meaning only the people and nation of Jews. That is not how God applied that name though, because it is attached to The Promise by Faith which Abraham believed.

Israel is the Salvation name because it was given to Jacob because he overcame with God's help. That is what the name means, to prevail with God. This is why Apostle Paul applied the name Israel to the "commonwealth" in Ephesians 2, which is about both believing Israelites and Gentiles in Christ, i.e., His Church.

For those of the seed of 'national' Israel, IF they continue in UN-belief when Jesus returns, of what nation are they then? NONE, they will be 'cut off' because of their disbelief. That means they cannot claim that name Israel. Why? Because there's the proof, ONLY those in Christ Jesus that believe will continue into His future Kingdom.

So the matter is truly easy as long as one listens to God in His Word.

 

[Guojing]

Israel is the Salvation name because it was given to Jacob because he overcame with God's help. That is what the name means, to prevail with God. This is why Apostle Paul applied the name Israel to the "commonwealth" in Ephesians 2, which is about both believing Israelites and Gentiles in Christ, i.e., His Church.

.

some people, who assume that the Body of Christ and Israel are equivalent terms, are fond of interpreting Ephesians 2:11-12 as saying that we gentiles in the body of Christ are now the commonwealth of Israel, when a literal reading of that passage does not yield that.

 

[ralliann]

some people, who assume that the Body of Christ and Israel are equivalent terms, are fond of interpreting Ephesians 2:11-12 as saying that we gentiles in the body of Christ are now the commonwealth of Israel, when a literal reading of that passage does not yield that.

Equivalent is not a term I would use. They are distinct from each other. One is strictly natural children of the flesh, and the other is children born of the spirit. Two different things.

 

[Guojing]

Equivalent is not a term I would use. They are distinct from each other. One is strictly natural children of the flesh, and the other is children born of the spirit. Two different things.

How I will view them is from Genesis 22

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

We in the Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 1:3), we are the seed of Abraham that are likened to the stars of the heaven.

Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth (Matthew 5:5, Genesis 12:7, Zechariah 8), they are the seed of Abraham that are likened to the sand which is upon the sea shore.

So you are correct, both the Body of Christ and Israel are seed of Abraham but they are completely different groups. God has different destinies for each of them.

 

[Davy]

some people, who assume that the Body of Christ and Israel are equivalent terms, are fond of interpreting Ephesians 2:11-12 as saying that we gentiles in the body of Christ are now the commonwealth of Israel, when a literal reading of that passage does not yield that.

You are just one of many believers that have failed to understand the Old Testament Books of God's Word involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Promise by Faith God first gave to Abraham is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Gospel was ordained before the foundation of this world, as Apostle Paul and Peter also explained in Ephesians and 1 Peter 1. The fact that the Promise was first given to Abraham, and then was continued through a specific lineage, with Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, and finally with Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, is not only about God's blessings to them, but it includes The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Israel is the name for the 'overcomers' in Christ Jesus, not just a nation in the flesh. Does it involve flesh seed? Yes, that specific lineage that God elected among the children of Israel, which Apostle Paul also covered in Romans 11, while the rest, or even majority of the seed of Israel were blinded. The whole matter is about God's Birthright to 'HIS' firstborn...

Jer 31:9-10
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
KJV

God is going to gather the 'believing' seed of Israel, but those just so happen to make up part of His Church today, the rest are believing Gentiles joined with them. Both will be gathered together by Christ at His coming.

Future:
Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance."
KJV

As written there, Assyria and Egypt will each be one third with Israel in God's future Kingdom in the holy lands. There will be a highway literally stretching from Egypt thru Israel and into Assyria joining them. All the strife between God's elect and the nations will no longer exist in that future time.

Thus the divisions happening today are simply being used by greedy dishonest men to suck money out of the gullible who listen to them, instead of listening to our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word. Israel is the name for those in God's Birthright Promises first given to Abraham, and that means those who believe on Jesus Christ The Gospel. This is why Apostle Paul said in Galatians there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus. Thus it is about spiritual recognition for those who believe The Gospel, regardless of birth. That's God's true Israel under Christ Jesus.

 

[ralliann]

You are just one of many believers that have failed to understand the Old Testament Books of God's Word involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Promise by Faith God first gave to Abraham is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Gospel was ordained before the foundation of this world, as Apostle Paul and Peter also explained in Ephesians and 1 Peter 1. The fact that the Promise was first given to Abraham, and then was continued through a specific lineage, with Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, and finally with Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, is not only about God's blessings to them, but it includes The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Israel is the name for the 'overcomers' in Christ Jesus, not just a nation in the flesh. Does it involve flesh seed? Yes, that specific lineage that God elected among the children of Israel, which Apostle Paul also covered in Romans 11, while the rest, or even majority of the seed of Israel were blinded. The whole matter is about God's Birthright to 'HIS' firstborn...

Jer 31:9-10
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
KJV

God is going to gather the 'believing' seed of Israel, but those just so happen to make up part of His Church today, the rest are believing Gentiles joined with them. Both will be gathered together by Christ at His coming.

Future:
Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance."
KJV

As written there, Assyria and Egypt will each be one third with Israel in God's future Kingdom in the holy lands. There will be a highway literally stretching from Egypt thru Israel and into Assyria joining them. All the strife between God's elect and the nations will no longer exist in that future time.

Thus the divisions happening today are simply being used by greedy dishonest men to suck money out of the gullible who listen to them, instead of listening to our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word. Israel is the name for those in God's Birthright Promises first given to Abraham, and that means those who believe on Jesus Christ The Gospel. This is why Apostle Paul said in Galatians there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus. Thus it is about spiritual recognition for those who believe The Gospel, regardless of birth. That's God's true Israel under Christ Jesus.

This is an aside here but just of stumps me. You say Joseph, then his two sons. But what about Judah? See
1Ch 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
1Ch 5:2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph’s
I don't quite know how to read this. But we can see the blessing to Judah
Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
To me it is obvious that one covenant concerns kings, and the other princes. Just not sure how to read these things. Any thoughts? Oh also Hebrews speaks about Levi being yet in the loins of Abraham when Melchizedek met him.

 

[Davy]

This is an aside here but just of stumps me. You say Joseph, then his two sons. But what about Judah? See
1Ch 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
1Ch 5:2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph’s
I don't quite know how to read this. But we can see the blessing to Judah
Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
To me it is obvious that one covenant concerns kings, and the other princes. Just not sure how to read these things. Any thoughts? Oh also Hebrews speaks about Levi being yet in the loins of Abraham when Melchizedek met him.

If you Biblically trace God's Birthright, paying attention to all the promises it contains, then you will wind up with the Birthright upon Ephraim and Manasseh (Joseph's two sons). Yet 1 Chronicles 5 gives a further revelation about Judah, like Genesis 49:10, Ezekiel 17 & 21 does, involving the royal sceptre rule. God promised David that one of his seed (literal seed) would always sit upon his throne to all generations. That's still how it is today with one of the house of David sitting upon it (on earth), that throne just isn't in Jerusalem anymore. Because many brethren don't understand that, they tend to apply David's throne being in heaven with Jesus sitting upon it now, which is not true. Only when Lord Jesus returns to sit upon David's throne (on earth) will that Genesis 49:10 passage be completed. That Genesis 49:10 verse makes it clear that one of David's seed must be upon that throne on earth all the way up to Christ's future return.

What's strange is that Christ's enemies know about this, and have been trying to wipe out David's earthly throne for centuries. Their plan is to re-establish it in Jerusalem, with another upon it, which will be a fake Messiah.

 

[ralliann]

If you Biblically trace God's Birthright, paying attention to all the promises it contains, then you will wind up with the Birthright upon Ephraim and Manasseh (Joseph's two sons). Yet 1 Chronicles 5 gives a further revelation about Judah, like Genesis 49:10, Ezekiel 17 & 21 does, involving the royal sceptre rule. God promised David that one of his seed (literal seed) would always sit upon his throne to all generations. That's still how it is today with one of the house of David sitting upon it (on earth), that throne just isn't in Jerusalem anymore. Because many brethren don't understand that, they tend to apply David's throne being in heaven with Jesus sitting upon it now, which is not true. Only when Lord Jesus returns to sit upon David's throne (on earth) will that Genesis 49:10 passage be completed. That Genesis 49:10 verse makes it clear that one of David's seed must be upon that throne on earth all the way up to Christ's future return.

What's strange is that Christ's enemies know about this, and have been trying to wipe out David's earthly throne for centuries. Their plan is to re-establish it in Jerusalem, with another upon it, which will be a fake Messiah.

Do we agree the birthright is he who has a double portion? I see this as based upon the two inheritances (ie covenants, wills of inheritance). The first being the earthly things (a shadow and example) and the second being heavenly things (the reality in christ)?
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[Davy]

Do we agree the birthright is he who has a double portion? I see this as based upon the two inheritances (ie covenants, wills of inheritance). The first being the earthly things (a shadow and example) and the second being heavenly things (the reality in christ)?
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Yes, kind of. The ultimate reality though, is that God's future Kingdom under Christ is going to involve earthly things. This earth isn't going anywhere. God's consuming fire is going to simply cleanse the earth's surface on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. In Isaiah God said we will build houses and plant vineyards in His future Kingdom. So the Promise by Faith to Abraham has always involved The Gospel along with those earthly blessings. Thus what I'm saying is that God's Birthright will be shown manifested among the peoples where those earthly blessings are revealed, ALONG WITH The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[ralliann]

Do we agree the birthright is he who has a double portion? I see this as based upon the two inheritances. The first being the earthly things (a shadow and example) and the heavenly things (the reality in christ)?

Yes, kind of. The ultimate reality though, is that God's future Kingdom under Christ is going to involve earthly things. This earth isn't going anywhere. God's consuming fire is going to simply cleanse the earth's surface on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. In Isaiah God said we will build houses and plant vineyards in His future Kingdom. So the Promise by Faith to Abraham has always involved The Gospel along with those earthly blessings. Thus what I'm saying is that God's Birthright will be shown manifested among the peoples where those earthly blessings are revealed, ALONG WITH The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ok, so I can better understand your thoughts on this, thank you. However I disagree. I go back to this (rightly or wrongly)
First the I think the earth's surface was already cleansed in the days of the the flood. Noah is an heir of the righteousness by faith (I can give you the quote if you would like)
My focus here is in the oath, which nothing of what God swore in oath can change. Nothing can be disannulled or added to it. God will not repent, nor change his mind and our hope is in the resurrection (the next world the next life)... So these being the foundation for my thoughts, the earthly ,worldly covenant made with Abraham to the fourth generation of his seed was without an oath and can "change" The law (of the land) was added to it. The priesthood has been changed (changing the law) as it was without an oath.



0.

 

[ralliann]

How I will view them is from Genesis 22

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

We in the Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 1:3), we are the seed of Abraham that are likened to the stars of the heaven.

Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth (Matthew 5:5, Genesis 12:7, Zechariah 8), they are the seed of Abraham that are likened to the sand which is upon the sea shore.

So you are correct, both the Body of Christ and Israel are seed of Abraham but they are completely different groups. God has different destinies for each of them.

Two covenants (wills of inheritance) to Abraham. It is a mistake IMO, to think everything God spoke was a covenant, or was binding himself with an oath.
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

 

[Guojing]

You are just one of many believers that have failed to understand the Old Testament Books of God's Word involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Promise by Faith God first gave to Abraham is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Gospel was ordained before the foundation of this world, as Apostle Paul and Peter also explained in Ephesians and 1 Peter 1. The fact that the Promise was first given to Abraham, and then was continued through a specific lineage, with Isaac, then Jacob, then Joseph, and finally with Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, is not only about God's blessings to them, but it includes The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Israel is the name for the 'overcomers' in Christ Jesus, not just a nation in the flesh. Does it involve flesh seed? Yes, that specific lineage that God elected among the children of Israel, which Apostle Paul also covered in Romans 11, while the rest, or even majority of the seed of Israel were blinded. The whole matter is about God's Birthright to 'HIS' firstborn...

Jer 31:9-10
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
KJV

God is going to gather the 'believing' seed of Israel, but those just so happen to make up part of His Church today, the rest are believing Gentiles joined with them. Both will be gathered together by Christ at His coming.

Future:
Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance."
KJV

As written there, Assyria and Egypt will each be one third with Israel in God's future Kingdom in the holy lands. There will be a highway literally stretching from Egypt thru Israel and into Assyria joining them. All the strife between God's elect and the nations will no longer exist in that future time.

Thus the divisions happening today are simply being used by greedy dishonest men to suck money out of the gullible who listen to them, instead of listening to our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word. Israel is the name for those in God's Birthright Promises first given to Abraham, and that means those who believe on Jesus Christ The Gospel. This is why Apostle Paul said in Galatians there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus. Thus it is about spiritual recognition for those who believe The Gospel, regardless of birth. That's God's true Israel under Christ Jesus.

So you believe the Body of Christ is equivalent to True Israel.

Alright then.

 

[ralliann]

So you believe the Body of Christ is equivalent to True Israel.

Alright then.

What's true Israel? The firstborn have a double inheritance. Those with only one are still natural children and have a share of inheritance. The Israel of God are the heirs of the second portion. Israel is God's firstborn. Which Israel do you see as true? What does that mean to you?

 

[Guojing]

What's true Israel? The firstborn have a double inheritance. Those with only one are still natural children and have a share of inheritance. The Israel of God are the heirs of the second portion. Israel is God's firstborn. Which Israel do you see as true? What does that mean to you?

To me, True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts.

They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)

As a result of the fall of the nation of Israel, salvation without the Law of Moses (Romans 4:5), is now open to everyone, Jew and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace (Romans 11:11).

All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

But the Body of Christ is not the same as the little flock. They are 2 separate groups of believers.

 

[ralliann]

To me, True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts.

They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)

As a result of the fall of the nation of Israel, salvation without the Law of Moses (Romans 4:5), is now open to everyone, Jew and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace (Romans 11:11).

All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

But the Body of Christ is not the same as the little flock. They are 2 separate groups of believers.

So Jewish believers are not one in Christ with Gentile believers? We have no shared inheritance in the heavenly kingdom? Trying to understand your thoughts here.

 

[Guojing]

So Jewish believers are not one in Christ with Gentile believers? We have no shared inheritance in the heavenly kingdom? Trying to understand your thoughts here.

Both are in Christ, but the little flock is not in the Body of Christ

There is a difference between the 2 terms. When Jesus was preaching to Israel in his first coming, he talks about how Israel need to be in Christ (John 6:56, John 15:2, John 14:20)

But he made no mention to Israel about them needing to be in the Body of Christ, the latter is a mystery to be revealed to Paul for us.

As I said to you previously, NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS ARE ISRAEL, Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth but the Body of Christ destiny is to inherit the heavens, separate destinies.

 

[ralliann]

Both are in Christ, but the little flock is not in the Body of Christ

There is a difference between the 2 terms. When Jesus was preaching to Israel in his first coming, he talks about how Israel need to be in Christ (John 6:56, John 15:2, John 14:20)

But he made no mention to Israel about them needing to be in the Body of Christ, the latter is a mystery to be revealed to Paul for us.

Where do you see the teaching on the differences between being in the body of Christ, being in Christ? I really am not concerned about an earthly inheritance. My inheritance is in heaven the eternal kingdom in the resurrection.

As I said to you previously, NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS ARE ISRAEL, Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth but the Body of Christ destiny is to inherit the heavens, separate destinies.

Wow, so their inheritance is in this world and this life?

 

[Guojing]

Wow, so their inheritance is in this world and this life?

As I said previously, Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth (Matthew 5:5, Genesis 12:7, Zechariah 8),

Israel was looking forward to inheriting that promised land where the Son of God himself will be their king (2 Samuel 7:12-16, Luke 1:31-33, Luke 1:68-75)