NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS ARE ISRAEL

[Guojing]

Where do you see the teaching on the differences between being in the body of Christ, being in Christ? I really am not concerned about an earthly inheritance. My inheritance is in heaven the eternal kingdom in the resurrection.

If you are keen to learn further the difference between in Christ and in the Body of Christ, I would recommend this

 

[Andrewn]

To me, True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts. They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

As I said previously, Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth (Matthew 5:5, Genesis 12:7, Zechariah 8),

You say that true Israel was a little flock out of 1st century Messianic Jews that does not exist any longer. Then you say that Israel's destiny is to inherit the earth.

How is Israel's to inherit the earth if Israel doesn't exist any longer?

 

[Guojing]

You say that true Israel was a little flock out of 1st century Messianic Jews that does not exist any longer. Then you say that Israel's destiny is to inherit the earth.

How is Israel's to inherit the earth if Israel doesn't exist any longer?

Romans 11:25-27 tells you that there is a future where Israel the nation would accept Christ as their messiah.

Most of us will call that the end of the tribulation, or Jacob trouble.

 

[Davy]

Ok, so I can better understand your thoughts on this, thank you. However I disagree. I go back to this (rightly or wrongly)
First the I think the earth's surface was already cleansed in the days of the the flood. Noah is an heir of the righteousness by faith (I can give you the quote if you would like)
My focus here is in the oath, which nothing of what God swore in oath can change. Nothing can be disannulled or added to it. God will not repent, nor change his mind and our hope is in the resurrection (the next world the next life)... So these being the foundation for my thoughts, the earthly ,worldly covenant made with Abraham to the fourth generation of his seed was without an oath and can "change" The law (of the land) was added to it. The priesthood has been changed (changing the law) as it was without an oath.

0.

God's Birthright blessings are included in the Promise by Faith which Abraham first believed, and God accounted Abraham's Faith as... righteousness. That will NEVER change. I don't know what kind of law you are trying... to apply to that as a condition, but that is fallacy, for God gave it to Abraham by PROMISE, not per oath. The 'token' of circumcision given Abraham was AFTER the fact, not in conjunction with The Promise by Faith.

Rom 4:2-3
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
KJV

Rom 4:10
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
KJV

Rom 4:11-14
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
KJV

Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV

 

[Davy]

So you believe the Body of Christ is equivalent to True Israel.

Alright then.

Who is true Israel? GOD's Israel. I didn't know there was any other?

Are the unbelieving Jews today still part of God's Israel? Yes, because at present the majority of the unbelieving Jews are still being 'blinded' by God, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. But when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God is going to remove that blindness He put upon them. Paul said that God's gifts and calling are with repentance, meaning He won't go back on His ultimate promises to them. How can you forget about that which Apostle Paul clearly explained about them in Romans 11?

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

 

[Davy]

To me, True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts.

They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7).

The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)

As a result of the fall of the nation of Israel, salvation without the Law of Moses (Romans 4:5), is now open to everyone, Jew and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace (Romans 11:11).

All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

But the Body of Christ is not the same as the little flock. They are 2 separate groups of believers.

The only ones pushing that isolation idea in your final statement are Dispensationalists from the Pre-trib Rapture theory crowd. That idea began with John Darby in 1830s Great Britain. Apostle Paul didn't preach a different Gospel than what the other Apostles preached. And it's too bad that you aren't aware of how there are many Jews that are members of Gentile attending Christian Churches!

Not all Jewish Christians are still orthodox like the unbelieving Jews. They don't all stay apart from Gentile believers either, which Paul rebuked Peter for doing at one time. It's surprising that you're not aware of this.

 

[Mr. M]

Paul also gave this kind of comparison of believing Gentiles with believing Israel in Ephesians 2 with the "commonwealth of Israel" label.

Good evening brethren beloved,
After reviewing all the posts on this thread, I am fairly certain that here is where Ephesians 2,
and Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" is first entered into the discussion. While it was not
a part of the OP#1, it provided another POV on the subject that was a valuable contribution, and
came back up a few times. However, no one went the next step, so please allow me to put this out
there, from the next chapter.
Ephesians 3:
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed
by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise
in Christ through the gospel.

Just curious as to how that would fit in to the various POV's already presented.
Apologies for joining in so late, but I did make a good faith review of the discussion,
and did not see where this passage had come up. Grace and Peace.

 

[Guojing]

And it's too bad that you aren't aware of how there are many Jews that are members of Gentile attending Christian Churches!
.

I already stated "All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile."

Did you miss it?

 

[Guojing]

Good evening brethren beloved,
After reviewing all the posts on this thread, I am fairly certain that here is where Ephesians 2,
and Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" is first entered into the discussion. While it was not
a part of the OP#1, it provided another POV on the subject that was a valuable contribution, and
came back up a few times. However, no one went the next step, so please allow me to put this out
there, from the next chapter.
Ephesians 3:
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed
by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise
in Christ through the gospel.

Just curious as to how that would fit in to the various POV's already presented.
Apologies for joining in so late, but I did make a good faith review of the discussion,
and did not see where this passage had come up. Grace and Peace.

I stated "All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile."

So yes, that is how it will fit.

The difference is that I do not call the Body of Christ as

1. Israel (True/Spiritual)
2. Commonwealth of Israel.
3. Anything to do with the term Israel

 

[Guojing]

The only ones pushing that isolation idea in your final statement are Dispensationalists from the Pre-trib Rapture theory crowd. That idea began with John Darby in 1830s Great Britain. Apostle Paul didn't preach a different Gospel than what the other Apostles preached. And it's too bad that you aren't aware of how there are many Jews that are members of Gentile attending Christian Churches!

Not all Jewish Christians are still orthodox like the unbelieving Jews. They don't all stay apart from Gentile believers either, which Paul rebuked Peter for doing at one time. It's surprising that you're not aware of this.

Out of curiosity, when you read Acts 21:18-25, you could not tell that James distinguished between Jewish believers and gentile believers?

As usual, if you are a KJV reader, it brings out the contrast most clearly, compared to all the modern versions.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

When you read and understand this passage literally, you mean you do not read this as James saying

1. All the Jews who believe in Jesus are to keep the law of Moses, and keep it zealously.
2. Gentiles who believe are to do NO SUCH THING, beyond those 4 requirements to keep the peace with the Jewish believers.

That contrast is not clear enough?

And I have not even brought in the other 3 passages that reinforced my above points about what Jewish believers must do, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7

 

[ralliann]

God's Birthright blessings are included in the Promise by Faith which Abraham first believed, and God accounted Abraham's Faith as... righteousness. That will NEVER change. I don't know what kind of law you are trying... to apply to that as a condition, but that is fallacy, for God gave it to Abraham by PROMISE, not per oath. The 'token' of circumcision given Abraham was AFTER the fact, not in conjunction with The Promise by Faith.

Rom 4:2-3
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
KJV

Rom 4:10
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
KJV

Rom 4:11-14
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
KJV

Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV

You don't understand me or what I am talking about.

 

[Davy]

Good evening brethren beloved,
After reviewing all the posts on this thread, I am fairly certain that here is where Ephesians 2,
and Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" is first entered into the discussion. While it was not
a part of the OP#1, it provided another POV on the subject that was a valuable contribution, and
came back up a few times. However, no one went the next step, so please allow me to put this out
there, from the next chapter.
Ephesians 3:
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed
by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise
in Christ through the gospel.

Just curious as to how that would fit in to the various POV's already presented.
Apologies for joining in so late, but I did make a good faith review of the discussion,
and did not see where this passage had come up. Grace and Peace.

Very applicable.

What Dispensationalists don't understand when reading Paul's Epistles, is that Paul was not isolating His preaching of the one Gospel from what God had already given through His Old Testament prophets and Christ's Apostles.

Even though Peter separated himself with his Jewish brethren that came from Jerusalem for a visit, it didn't mean Peter believed there were two different gospels. The fact that Paul rebuked Peter for separating himself shows Paul didn't hold to any dual gospel idea either (Galatians 2:11-21).

The dual gospel idea is a corruption from men's doctrines, particularly in the John Darby Great Britain 1830s era. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory is responsible for developing the false dual gospel idea. Under Pre-trib, they believe the Church is raptured to Heaven by Christ before the tribulation, and that Israel will go through the trib. Then Jesus and His Church will reign 'from Heaven' after the trib, while the kingdom of Israel is restored on earth again. In order to keep that theory intact, Dispensationalism required the idea of two gospels, one for the Jews, and one for Christ's Church. There reality per God's Word though is that those theories are false. There is only 'one' Gospel for both believing Israel and believing Gentile, which both together make up Christ's Church.

This is how it is real easy to spot a Dispensationalist that most likely has latched onto its pet Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. That false theory requires that Christ's Church and the restoration of the kingdom of Israel remain completely separate things.

And since the late 19th century, Dispensationalists took their theory another step further into darkness of untruth. It's called Hyper-Dispensationalism, and is the idea that 'only' Apostle Paul's Epistles were written to Christ's Church, while the rest of The Bible was written only for Jews. That of course is a huge crock of smelly deviled haggis.

 

[Davy]

I already stated "All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile."

Did you miss it?

Maybe.

 

[Davy]

Out of curiosity, when you read Acts 21:18-25, you could not tell that James distinguished between Jewish believers and gentile believers?

So as long as blood-born Israelites of the ten lost tribes that lost knowledge of their heritage as part of Israel long ago, and think they are Gentiles, living as Gentiles, as long as they stay ignorant of that, then what you think James distinguished doesn't apply to them, even while among Gentiles in Christ's Church? Does that mean those lost tribe Israelites aren't really Israelites anymore?

No, of course not, because God prophesied that He in final will gather them back to the lands He promised their fathers. In Amos 9 God even said He will sift those ten tribes like corn in a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to earth. So just 'how'... do those remain a part of Christ's Church, if they are going to be making up the future restoration of the kingdom of Israel again, as God promised?

Do you not see your dilemma? Just because a blood-born Israelite becomes a Christian, and lives as a Gentile among Gentiles, that still doesn't mean God has forgotten His promises to His chosen seed. We Gentiles are not to be conceited about that according to Apostle Paul in Romans 11, because like Paul said, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Guojing]

So as long as blood-born Israelites of the ten lost tribes that lost knowledge of their heritage as part of Israel long ago, and think they are Gentiles, living as Gentiles, as long as they stay ignorant of that, then what you think James distinguished doesn't apply to them, even while among Gentiles in Christ's Church? Does that mean those lost tribe Israelites aren't really Israelites anymore?

No, of course not, because God prophesied that He in final will gather them back to the lands He promised their fathers. In Amos 9 God even said He will sift those ten tribes like corn in a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to earth. So just 'how'... do those remain a part of Christ's Church, if they are going to be making up the future restoration of the kingdom of Israel again, as God promised?

Do you not see your dilemma? Just because a blood-born Israelite becomes a Christian, and lives as a Gentile among Gentiles, that still doesn't mean God has forgotten His promises to His chosen seed. We Gentiles are not to be conceited about that according to Apostle Paul in Romans 11, because like Paul said, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Are you addressing any of my points in that post you are replying to?

When you read Acts 21:18-25, do you understand it as James saying

1. All the Jews who believe in Jesus are to keep the law of Moses, and keep it zealously.
2. Gentiles who believe are to do NO SUCH THING, beyond those 4 requirements to keep the peace with the Jewish believers.

or do you have a different interpretation?

 

[Davy]

You don't understand me or what I am talking about.

I understand that you're 'trying'... to apply the idea of oaths to what God promised to Abraham, which that would mean the law was involved, when the law was definitely NOT involved. And Apostle Paul showed in Romans 4 why that is.

 

[Davy]

Are you addressing any of my points in that post you are replying to?

When you read Acts 21:18-25, do you understand it as James saying

1. All the Jews who believe in Jesus are to keep the law of Moses, and keep it zealously.
2. Gentiles who believe are to do NO SUCH THING, beyond those 4 requirements to keep the peace with the Jewish believers.

or do you have a different interpretation?

What I wrote addresses that first point... directly. If you don't care to read what I wrote, fine. We'll end discussion right here.

 

[Guojing]

What I wrote addresses that first point... directly. If you don't care to read what I wrote, fine. We'll end discussion right here.

When your reader can't make sense of what you wrote, do you automatically assume its their fault?

 

[Davy]

When your reader can't make sense of what you wrote, do you automatically assume its their fault?

Well, maybe you ought read over it until you can understand the words, because it's not that difficult what I wrote. But the idea it presents, that may actually be what you struggle with.

For example, you're trying to apply a separation between Jewish believers and Gentile believers with what James said. Yet we cannot forget what God did to the ten tribes of Israel for forgetting Him, and thus He kept His promise of what He'd do to them per Deut.4, scatter them among Gentiles so they would become 'like' Gentiles. And in the Book of Hosea God reiterates this idea of the house of Israel losing knowledge of who they are.

That literally is what happened with the ten lost tribes of Israel. The Jews don't know where they are, and the world doesn't either. But God has not lost them, and He promised to gather them back to the holy land in final.

But in the meantime... MANY... of those lost tribe Israelites, thinking they are Gentiles, have become Christ's Church, along with actual Gentiles of the nations. And both together make up Christ's Church, along with Jews that 'do know' their heritage from old Israel and converted to Christ Jesus. Those are Christ's Church too! And they all are seen together, attending Christian Churches, together, as the Body of Christ, WITHOUT SEPARATING THEMSELVES from each other.

So HOW do God's promises to gather the ten lost tribes of Israel back to the lands He promised their fathers work into that? Is He going to pull out just the families that have a lineage from old Israel, of both the ten lost tribes and Jews, and bring only those to the holy lands of promise? No. Christ Jesus is coming for ALL... of them, AS ONE BODY, just like they are together in the Churches even today. He is going to take them all to the holy lands of promise, and establish His Kingdom here on earth with them. Those who refuse Him will be somewhere outside the gates of that future Kingdom on earth.

What does that do to men's theories of Dispensationalism? It destroys it.

 

[Guojing]

Well, maybe you ought read over it until you can understand the words, because it's not that difficult what I wrote. But the idea it presents, that may actually be what you struggle with.

So as long as blood-born Israelites of the ten lost tribes that lost knowledge of their heritage as part of Israel long ago, and think they are Gentiles, living as Gentiles, as long as they stay ignorant of that, then what you think James distinguished doesn't apply to them, even while among Gentiles in Christ's Church? Does that mean those lost tribe Israelites aren't really Israelites anymore?

Do you really think an average reader can make sense of the above paragraph?

Your first sentence is way too long, has too many commas.

Does your conclusion in your final sentence, address any of my points in the post that you are replying to?