Apologetic_Warrior
Pilgrim
- Oct 21, 2003
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Could not have said it better myself, thank you and God bless you brother!
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How is any of this helpful to a Saudi convert whose life is in danger? Can we take the debate out of this and just pray for his growth and physical safety?
There are no established churches in Saudi Arabia for former Muslims to join other than planted home churches underground.
First off, and with all due respect, nowhere does the Bible say that Baptism is merely a "symbolic" act...that passage simply does not exist.
Second, let's see what the Bible does say about Baptism:
Ezek 36:25-27, it says, "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses...a new heart I will give you and a new spirit I will put within you...and I will put My spirit within you..." Here, in the Old Testament, we have a foreshadowing of New Testament baptism.
Now, let's see if the New Testament corresponds to what we just read in Ezekiel. Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Note that there is no symbolic language here...this is real! The Book of Acts says, "Be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins." Ezekiel says, "I will sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean from your uncleanness." The Book of Acts says, "...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Ezekiel says: "...and I will put My Spirit within you." Do you begin to see how God, in the Old Covenant, was preparing us for what He gives us in the New Covenant?
Acts 22:16 - "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins..." 1 Cor 12:13 - "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body..." What body was that? The Body of Christ. 1 Ptr 3:21: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you..."
Scripture simply does not support the Calvinist notion that Baptism is symbolic. Scripture does very directly and very clearly support the Catholic teaching that Baptism saves us; that Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ; that Baptism washes away sin; and that through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit...just as the Catholic Church teaches!
Thirdly.... as I presented in my last post, The Early Church and Early Church Fathers also disagree with you. These Fathers were the leaders and teachers of the early Church. They were the immediate successors of the Apostles, i.e. “Apostolic Fathers.” Three of them were disciples of one or more of the Apostles. Clement of Rome was a disciple of the apostles Peter and Paul. Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna were disciples of the Apostle John. Naturally we would expect that those who were personally taught by the Apostles would themselves believe and teach correctly, do you not agree?
I also noticed you like to quote Martin Luther:
Let me post another of his quotes:
By this quote, would you not agree Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism?
Have a Blessed Easter Season
(part of this post is with the help from 'Staycatholic.com' and Sebastian R. Fama)
mod hat
thread moved to christian advice
please address the op and not each other
Is there any theological reason in his circumstances he could not baptize himself?
I know it’s not the best scenario but in his circumstances what verses may be against it?
Is there any theological reason in his circumstances he could not baptize himself?
I know it’s not the best scenario but in his circumstances what verses may be against it?
I don’t know. I think if it comes down to the ability to be baptized or not, I would baptize myself.Personally, I do not care because being baptized does not save anyone anymore that keeping the Law saved anyone.
But IMO the answer would be NO. Baptism was a public activity and even Jesus was seen being Baptized but then again.......someone had to be the 1st one to be baptized.
I don’t know. I think if it comes down to the ability to be baptized or not, I would baptize myself.
And didn’t the OP say he cannot be baptized public ally because of where he lives.I hear you but what about.............
1 Tim. 4:14, 2 Tim. 1:6.............
“Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership” ????
And the qualifications of these religious leaders are listed in 1 Tim. 3:1–14 and Titus 1:5–11.
And didn’t the OP say he cannot be baptized public ally because of where he lives.
Since that is the case, it is not a choice and is pretty black and white. It is not ‘neglecting’ or I don’t want to.
In my post, I clearly said given the circumstances of not being baptized or baptizing myself, I would do the latter.
Maybe I was misunderstood a little. Of course we can use those books for instruction in righteousness(2 Timothy 3:16), but we must also be able to divide the word of truth properly and know what really applies to us today(2 Timothy 2:15).I would have to disagree with you on the idea that some New Test. books are not for us today.
It is true that some of the books were "directed" toward a certain group for a certain reason but that does not mean that they are NOT FOR US today.
Maybe I was misunderstood a little. Of course we can use those books for instruction in righteousness(2 Timothy 3:16), but we must also be able to divide the word of truth properly and know what really applies to us today(2 Timothy 2:15).
No, ... but you should try to get baptized(when possible), preferably by submersion under the water = to symbolize repentance and being born-again of the Spirit.Do I have to get baptized to complete my faith?
No, ... but you should try to get baptized, preferably by submersion under the water = to symbolize repentance and being born-again of the Spirit.
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Here's my summary of the Bible or Word of God.
0. God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. God has His throne in heaven.(EZE.1, REV.4) Satan and his demons rebelled against God.(ISA.14:12, EZE.28:17, REV.12:4-9)
....... God-in-heaven desired to replace the spiritual rebels with S'piritual humans. Earth is like a test-bed for this purpose.
1. On earth, all humans are born sinful/evil/satanic because of Adam's Original Sin = unclean/dirty/unholy = bound for hell when they die.(ROM.5:12)
2. No humans on earth can see the true face of God and live.(EXO.33:20, JOHN.1:18 & 5:37)
3. To save fallen humans, God-in-heaven endeavoured to come down to earth in lesser forms as the invisible Spirit or as the visible human(= Angel of God or Jesus Christ). (JOHN.8:58/EXO.3:14, JOHN.1:1 & 14, 1TIM.3:16, 2COR.3:17, ISA.9:6)
....... As the Spirit, God-in-heaven gave His Law to Moses and the Jews, in order to curb humans' inborn tendency to commit sins/evil-deeds/satanic-deeds.(DEUT.28)
....... As Jesus Christ, God-in-heaven gave the apostles and Christians the sacrificial Lamb of God on the Cross(JOHN.1:29), in order to save them from hell when they die = the free gift of salvation or the kingdom of heaven through faith.(JOHN.3:16, MATT.4:17, GAL.2:16)
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A good analogy of our One and Only God is our one and only sun.
... God-the-Father-in-heaven sends His invisible Spirit and His visible Son-Jesus to earth to sustain immortal life = the sun-in-outer-space sends her invisible warmth/heat and her visible light to earth to sustain mortal life.
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The Bible or Word of God can be broken down into 2 parts, the Old and New Testaments/Covenants, ie,
(i) if you wanna have a good n long life on earth, you need to keep the Law/Word of God.(DEUT.28, MATT.19:21, ACTS.15:24-29, cf; 1COR.5:1-5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-19),
(ii) if you wanna go to heaven when you die, you need to be saved from hell by Jesus the Christ/Messiah/Savior.(MATT.5:27-30, ROM.5:12, LEV.17:11, HEB.9:22, JOHN.3:16, 1COR.6:9-11, REV.22:12-15)
Christians should aim to achieve both, ie to gain both blessings from God, eg MATT.19:23.
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Bc of our inherited Adam's Original Sin, we have the dual problems of INVOLUNTARY satanic/evil/sinful thoughts, eg immoral lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, fear/worries, doubts, etc, ...and VOLUNTARY satanic/evil/sinful deeds, eg blasphemy, idolatry, murder, adultery/fornication/rape, stealing, lying/cheating/defrauding, etc.
....... The former resulted in being cursed/sent to hell when we die(GEN.3:14-16) and the latter resulted in being cursed by God with a sad and short life on earth. God's Law solved the latter and God's Son solved the former.
....... Usually, before someone committed murder, he/she had originally harbored hate or greed or lust or jealousy or etc in his/her heart and mind.(source is spiritually from Satan - JOHN.8:44, MATT.16:23 & 23:27, MARK.7:21, 1JOHN.3:8)) IOW, all humans are born satanic/evil/sinful/unclean, from their hearts to their feet.
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At ACTS.15:24-29, God/Jesus requires Gentile Christians to begin their born-again lives of the Spirit by keeping 4 easy or non-burdensome laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, strangled animals, foods sacrificed to idols and sexual immorality = minimum legal requirement. They r then given time to learn to gradually keep the other laws of Moses which are not a burden, esp morality laws, eg the Ten Commandments at EXODUS.20, LEVITICUS.10:9, DEUTERONOMY.18:9-14, etc.
....... In comparison, Jewish Christians are required by God/Jesus to continue to keep Moses Law, as many as possible, because it is not a burden to them.
....... Eg, Gentile Christians should still avoid homosexuality and continue to eat non-kosher foods because the former is not a burden but the latter is a burden(ie it's a burden for them to keep the food laws).
... Faith in God's Son, Jesus = faith in God's Word/Law/commandments because JOHN.1:1 says the Son is the Word and is also God.
We need to properly differentiate between involuntary satanic/evil/sinful thoughts and voluntary sins/evil deeds, and between involuntary or inborn Gentile and Jewish Christians.
Analogy about involuntary evil/satanic thoughts and voluntary evil-deeds/sins - black crows often squawks noisily over our heads but we should not let them build their dirty nests on our heads.
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Jews "falsely" believe that they will be saved from hell(= go to heaven) when they die by believing in God and keeping Moses Law.
....... Muslims "falsely" believe that they will be saved ... by believing in Allah and keeping Muhammad Law or Sharia Law.
....... Christians believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation.
Atheists "falsely" believe that they will die, become nothing and return to dust.
....... Buddhists "falsely" believe that they will die and be reborn/reincarnated until they reach nirvana or enlightenment. Good deeds/merits will cause them to be reborn to a higher social, being and/or mental position.
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