New Christian with pre-destination question.

[BenjamintheWolf]

While sharing my bible reading plan with a lifelong Christian and missionary I was advised that the end of Romans 8 covered a much debated topic; predestination.

She explained to me that she had seen churches literally split apart because of the contraversy over this specific topic.

So I read it.

In my spiritual infancy I drew one conclusion. Within the context of true unabashed faithfulness choice and destiny become irrelevant. If i'm predestined to burn in the lake of fire, that does nothing to decrease my faith. I've learned that true happiness and wholeness in this life are contingent upon my personal relationship with Christ. As a faithkeeper I know that oneness with and obedience to GOD bear fruit for myself and all those around me.

All that said, It seems to me as if the intensity of this disagreement is rooted in 2 unseen attitudes among Christians.

1) You've become content with your own goodness and believe that you're the predestined.

2) You're only Christian because you want to go to heaven.

Brothers and Sisters praise the Lord. Paul is without a doubt the single greatest argumentative communicator I've ever studied.

 

[ChristopherK]

Welcome to the Body of Christ, sis! Praise God. Yeah this topic has certainly caused a lot of friction within the Church. One great example I have stuck with is by AW Tozer from his book, 'Knowledge of the Holy' explains this topic in the following way. A crew is on a ship, and performing their assigned duties while the ship sales to its intended destination. The crew is not inactive in their activity, because it has been assigned as their personal responsibility to manage while on the ship, however, the ship never wavers from its course.

Ultimately meaning to say that those who are in Christ are active in their faith while God maintains their course to be with Him at the end of their journey.

As an avid TULIP (John Calvin/Reformed theology) defender before, I've since let go of those doctrines and have rested within Scripture and the simplicity of the Gospel. I know my faith is a gift and that it is the Holy Spirit who brings me to life from my previous life of death in sin. Since being born-again, my faith bears fruit in my obedience to Christ, but I'm not living in Him by constantly dwelling on predestination, but simply because I love the Lord. I think our hearts and minds should always rest in Christ and what He has done for us instead of anything else. God be with you, sis!

 

[com7fy8]

I think of Romans 8:29 >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He may be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

God knew ahead of time who would be saved.

And God destined, then, that we will be changed into the image of God's own Son Jesus. So, it is important to know what is predestined. We are not only going to "Heaven", but we are being transformed in our nature so we become like Jesus Himself.

This is why, I now consider, Jesus started the Sermon on the Mount with how to be . . . not only what to do or who we are, but how we need to become in our character.

God wants us to be the "many brethren" of Jesus. So, God is about family.

But there are people who are not about personal loving in family caring and sharing. They can be mostly concerned about their own ideas and beliefs and practices which maybe they were capable of accepting while they were immature or not even Christians. And ones of these believe in free will while others believe in predestination. And, either way, it can be an ego thing > wanting my own control of my choices and mainly being concerned about getting my own self to Heaven, or wanting to have status over those not predestined and, again, mainly caring about what happens to me and to ones who are my favorite people.

But Jesus has us caring about any and all people > "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

So, in case a person is holding to free will or to predestination, but with limited love, either way is wrong.

But if we truly trust in Jesus, do we desire to hold on to our own egos and choice making? If I give myself to God, I trust Him with my will and my heart, for how He is able to conform me to Jesus and personally guide me "continually" (Isaiah 58:11).

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

In Christianity we become "one spirit with" God in His own love. This is so better than how I have been supposedly free in my own will in sin. In sin I was dead (Ephesians 2:1-3) and a slave of Satan. That was not good. My will was not free!!

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

So, the thanks . . . the credit . . . is to God, that we have obeyed. Our hearts in sin were not by nature obedient. But thanks be to God, that He changed our nature so we obeyed.

But there are people who boast their own selves as being able to choose what is good. But only God is good, Jesus says. Matthew 19:17 Mark 10:18 Luke 18:19 Only God is able to make really good choices.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

We are "called in one body" to submit to how our Heavenly Father rules us in our "hearts" with His very own peace. If you are ruled by something or someone, this is all the time. Our Heavenly Father so cares for us, that He desires to personally rule every one of us . . . "in one body" . . . in His very own peace. This is how caring God is, and willing to share His very own self and peace with each of us, all the time.

So, how many people in our own free wills have chosen this?

Also, I do not think we are capable of keeping our own selves willing at each moment to obey how God is ruling us in His peace. We need Him to change us so He has us so submitting, all the time > consider, by the way, Colossians 1:28-29 < Paul knows the objective of submitting to God, and he knows he needs to work according to how God in Him works him to meet this objective. How many of us in our own wills have been busy with choosing and seeking to minister us all into becoming "perfect in Christ Jesus" (Colossians 1:28-29)?

Also . . . if we are ruled "in one body", our Father is always personally guiding us in keeping with all He knows and has going on in all the "one body" of Christ. There is no way we can ourselves know and keep track of all this and get ourselves to will to do at each moment what is in coordination with all the "one body" of Jesus. It can't be done

But > God does want us to relate with each other in love, so we respect what one another makes for choices. We are not to force or trick or bribe or charm people, but prayerfully encourage one another to all which is good (Ephesians 4:1-3, Ephesians 4:13-16 And trust God to produce His result.

 

[jeffinjapan]

Predestination as understood from the Calvinist camp infers that God created souls knowing not only that they would go to hell and burn forever but that they would have no choice in the matter.

Yep...Many Christians who profess that God is love actually believe this.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While sharing my bible reading plan with a lifelong Christian and missionary I was advised that the end of Romans 8 covered a much debated topic; predestination.

She explained to me that she had seen churches literally split apart because of the contraversy over this specific topic.

So I read it.

In my spiritual infancy I drew one conclusion. Within the context of true unabashed faithfulness choice and destiny become irrelevant. If i'm predestined to burn in the lake of fire, that does nothing to decrease my faith. I've learned that true happiness and wholeness in this life are contingent upon my personal relationship with Christ. As a faithkeeper I know that oneness with and obedience to GOD bear fruit for myself and all those around me.

All that said, It seems to me as if the intensity of this disagreement is rooted in 2 unseen attitudes among Christians.

1) You've become content with your own goodness and believe that you're the predestined.

2) You're only Christian because you want to go to heaven.

Brothers and Sisters praise the Lord. Paul is without a doubt the single greatest argumentative communicator I've ever studied.

In the Lutheran Confessions we address the subject of predestination, because for one it can be a extremely delicate topic. To offer a brief summary of the Lutheran position:

Predestination applies only to believers, not unbelievers. That is, God has predestined us in Christ to salvation, but it is not true that God has predestined anyone to damnation. Predestination applies only to Christians. The meaning and purpose of this election is for our comfort, that we can have confidence in what Christ has done for us, in the word of the Gospel, and in the Sacraments whereby faith has been given to us as a gift from God, and that we are, in Christ, God's children.

Two errors are to be rejected:
1) That predestination is to be a cause of fear or dread, wherein the Christian is mortified with the thought of his or her damnation, asking, "Am I elect? What if I'm not?" We reject this, because our election, God's predestining us in Christ, is to deliver us comfort--we should therefore always and at all times have confidence in the truth of the Gospel: that Jesus Christ died for our sins, that He is risen from the dead, that we are forgiven, baptized, and belong to Christ Jesus our Lord.

2) That predestination is to be an excuse for licentious living, as though we could say, "I am predestined for salvation, therefore I can live however I please, do whatever I like, and I have my golden ticket to paradise." This is not the case at all, and the person who thinks this way treads over and tramples over faith, despising the grace of God, and denying Jesus Christ and is therefore the faithless person.

Predestination and election are, in Lutheran theology, part of the comfort that comes with the Gospel--that our sins are forgiven because Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and we have hope in Him. And that part is essential here: Christ died for the sins of the whole world, that also means that it is God's will and desire that all be saved. God does not pick and choose who will and won't be saved, that is not the meaning of predestination and election in Lutheran theology; it means that God has chosen us in Christ and we can therefore be confident in God's promises to us in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1watchman]

Yes, "foreknowledge" of God is the prerequisite for understanding election, predestination, foreordained, chosen in Christ, etc. ---see also Jeremiah 1:5. God very well also knew what Satan and Adam and Eve would do, and had the plan in place to redeem fallen man in due time. God wanted man to learn to love Him, as any father would desire for his son (He did not need more Angels to obey and serve Him) ---and wanted children.

 

[Albion]

Predestination as understood from the Calvinist camp infers that God created souls knowing not only that they would go to hell and burn forever but that they would have no choice in the matter.

Yep...Many Christians who profess that God is love actually believe this.

That's the way a lot of people who have heard the word would explain their thinking, but where it goes wrong is in including what you did--an assumption that when God created you or me--that we were at that point blameless (and therefore deserving of eternal happiness if that is indeed available to anyone). Except that that is not the case.

It was the case with Adam until he sinned, but we have inherited the "fallout" from Adam's sin. We are humans, therefore we now are flawed creatures. THEN comes God's response to that fact, which as we all know means him granting us (who do not deserve it on our own merits) the possibility of salvation despite our fallen nature. That indeed is an act of Love or Mercy given to whomever he wills.

 

[HoleyHermit]

That's the way a lot of people who have heard the word would explain their thinking, but where it goes wrong is in including what you did--an assumption that when God created you or me--that we were at that point blameless (and therefore deserving of eternal happiness if that is indeed available to anyone). Except that that is not the case.

It was the case with Adam until he sinned, but we have inherited the "fallout" from Adam's sin. We are humans, therefore we now are flawed creatures. THEN comes God's response to that fact, which as we all know means him granting us (who do not deserve it on our own merits) the possibility of salvation despite our fallen nature. That indeed is an act of Love or Mercy given to whomever he wills.

Except that predestination occurs before the foundation of the world.

 

[Albion]

Whether or not it does is a question among predestinarians, but it wouldn't change what we were talking about in any case.