New CF - finally...

[MelzluvsJesus]

Green, they want someone to blame..but it won't hold water on the Last Day. They blame us for pushing them away. No, they chose to walk away...I totally agree with you on this. SO sad.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I actually want to cover this one more closely...

I always thought that the message of Christianity was also that we are all in the same boat, all worthy of fellowship and compassion, especially those we would count as enemies.

No. Christians are saved, by the blood of Jesus. People who are not in a relationship with Him are not.

Christians aren't better people than non, but we are not in the same boat, and nowhere within Christian teachings is it said we are.

I always thought that the message of Christianity was that nobody's that much better than anyone else; that we're all flawed creatures doing the best we can.

We aren't just flawed. We are all drenched in sin. Every single one of us. But Christians have been freed. No-one said a single thing that would imply they thought they were a better person than you.

I always thought that the message of Christianity was that extending the hand of friendship and a welcome in your home to tax-collectors, prostitutes and the like was the right thing to do; that this gratuitous fellowship and refusal to exclude people was the whole point.

There hasn't been talk of exclusion. Jesus went out to those people to bring them to Him, to build a relationship with them that would give them a place in Heaven. He didn't lunch with them for kicks.

I always thought the message of Christianity was that altruism was more powerful than evil, that it simply worked better; that love was the universal solvent.

This is just more rhetoric! Yes, love is the fundamental tenet of Christianity. First for God, then for man. Altruism being more powerful than evil is a karmic new-age belief.

We are saved by grace, not by works.

And so, get a bunch of particularly devout Christians together in a place like this, and look what happens.

They build fences to forcibly separate 'them' from 'us'. They worry that they will be contaminated or dragged down by walking among those outside their group. They hoard their friendship and welcome among themselves, refusing to waste it on others, as though they might somehow run out of the stuff. And they simply do not trust that their way works better, shielding themselves from the 'wolves' of other beliefs and hostility, lest it overpower love.

And people wonder why I'm a cynic.

In fact, what CF became was down to its structure... all of which was ultimately Erwin's responsibility.

What you wrote *is* unbelievably manipulative. Who is this "they" you insist on referring to?

You're a cynic, because you're cold hearted, and you need to be in a relationship with Jesus.

And lest you think I'm saying that as a flame, I say that as a child of God, who wants very much for you to be saved.

God bless you always.

 

[StawberryCough]

These two posts succinctly highlight the problem.

Nothing said was stupid, or wrong. It was Biblical.

So people who don't *want* to hear the Truth can now accuse Bible-believing Christians of "driving them away from Jesus", which you well know is the last thing any Christian wants to do.

While it's probably not intended manipulatively, it *is* manipulative. And the paradigm of the site allows, encourages, you do do just that.

That, for a "Christian" forum, is a mistake.

I don't care if they're Biblical, they're wrong. They know themselves a helluva lot better than you think you know them.

Before I joined this site, I would have never guessed people would be so arrogant as to assume to know another's nature and heart better than I. Little did I know it's quite commonplace.

It's you that doesn't want to hear the truth about them. You want to hide behind your Bible, and condemn them and feel damn good about doing it so you don't have to ever think about what they say, or what they do, and the very real and damn good reasons why they don't believe, including the behaviour and attitudes of other Christians.

Well no longer. Now there will be a free exchange of ideas, and let the better man win I say.

The fact that so many Christians here are running now that the gloves are essentially taken off, and the staff and rules are baised in their favor.

I believe in Jesus, but that's in spite of many other Christians. Not long ago, I was a non-believer, and they're honestly a lot better than many of the Christians in my short time here.

 

[StawberryCough]

Green, they want someone to blame..but it won't hold water on the Last Day. They blame us for pushing them away. No, they chose to walk away...I totally agree with you on this. SO sad.

And on that Day, you won't be able to deny your accountability in being a bad witness.

 

[MelzluvsJesus]

And on that Day, you won't be able to deny your accountability in being a bad witness.

I wasn't witnessing at all. I didn't point a finger at you...but at the whining about how bad us Christians are. Trust me, I know I have alot to be accountable for..but one of them isn't weather an atheist CHOSE to walk away or not.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I don't care if they're Biblical, they're wrong.

No, bro. Their being Biblical is what makes them Truth.

They know themselves a helluva lot better than you think you know them.

Ok... I seriously don't know who or wat you're talking about here...

Before I joined this site, I would have never guessed people would be so arrogant as to assume to know another's nature and heart better than I. Little did I know it's quite commonplace.

Again, moo? Nature? Heart? What?

It's you that doesn't want to hear the truth about them. You want to hide behind your Bible, and condemn them and feel damn good about doing it so you don't have to ever think about what they say, or what they do, and the very real and damn good reasons why they don't believe, including the behaviour and attitudes of other Christians.

Oh for goodness sake. You're speaking out of great anger, so why don't we approach this rationally.

No Christian "hides" behind the Bible. It is what tells about our Lord. It is how we learn how to exist in this world. The Bible is the Word of God. His love letter to us.

There was no condemnation whatsoever. Full stop.

Not one Christian in this thread has behaved in a way that requires shame. And, as much as you'd like it to be different, am sorry, but it's not.

Well no longer. Now there will be a free exchange of ideas, and let the better man win I say.

Free exchange is where *everyone* is free to speak. You've made it abundantly clear you'd rather Bible-believing Christians keep it to themselves. In what way is that a free exchange?

The fact that so many Christians here are running now that the gloves are essentially taken off, and the staff and rules are baised in their favor.

I believe in Jesus, but that's in spite of many other Christians. Not long ago, I was a non-believer, and they're honestly a lot better than many of the Christians in my short time here.

Yep, we've all been dreadfully hurt by fellow Christians, both in person, and online. The church is in a terrible state today.

But someone's relationship with Jesus is between them and Jesus. It is unacceptable to claim that someone standing up for Biblical mandate is driving them away.

 

[StawberryCough]

You're a cynic, because you're cold hearted, and you need to be in a relationship with Jesus.

This is why I don't like CHristians, and refuse to identify myself as one.

 

[MelzluvsJesus]

This is why I don't like CHristians, and refuse to identify myself as one.

that was rude of that person. But don't deny Jesus because some one acted that way. Quit trying to blame everyone else. Take responsibility for yourself and your actions...

 

[GreenMunchkin]

This is why I don't like CHristians, and refuse to identify myself as one.

Ok, let's discuss what you don't like about that statement.

Should I have worded it differently? If it was worded badly, I'm truly sorry. Let me clarify. I became a Christian a year and a half ago, and beforehand, that's what made me so cynical. Being cold-hearted is a spiritual issue, not one of being a good or bad person.

Being a Christian means Jesus enters your heart and breathes life into it. Before that, we are *all* cold-hearted. Even the kindest of people.

 

[StawberryCough]

Free exchange is where *everyone* is free to speak. You've made it abundantly clear you'd rather Bible-believing Christians keep it to themselves. In what way is that a free exchange?

This is completely moronic right here. I never said you shouldn't be allowed to say stupid things. Disagreement isn't persecution. Why is that such a hard concept the grasp?

Besides, I know I can win any debate against you or any Christian in here, why would I want to have you shut you up when knocking you around just makes me look good.

Yep, we've all been dreadfully hurt by fellow Christians, both in person, and online. The church is in a terrible state today.

But someone's relationship with Jesus is between them and Jesus. It is unacceptable to claim that someone standing up for Biblical mandate is driving them away.

They are if they're doing it in a bad, disrespectful way, as many here have. You don't win hearts and souls by calling people "cold hearted" and dismissing their objections out of hand.

No, bro. Their being Biblical is what makes them Truth.

If the Bible flies in the face of reality and what is obviously true, instead of what is claimed to be true, then the Bible is wrong.

I have not, nor will I ever substitute reason with faith as you have.

Ok... I seriously don't know who or wat you're talking about here...

You and others in here seem to think you knows the hearts and minds of non-Christians better than they themselves.

No-one said a single thing that would imply they thought they were a better person than you.

What? Maybe this is like when you can't smell your own BO, but every one your posts has reaked of a holier-than-thou attitude. "Cold-hearted", as if you're not? "Freed", as if we're slaves" Someone talking about total depravity earlier. All This talk of "wolves", and "spiritual pedophiles", and "decievers", and "non-believers can't be trusted to govern believers", blah, blah, blah.

And lest you think I'm saying that as a flame, I say that as a child of God, who wants very much for you to be saved.

"Malice dressed in pious clothing", now where did I hear that...?

Moma always said a Christian will stab you in the back in the name of Jesus. Guess she was right.

 

[Uphill Battle]

This is why I don't like CHristians, and refuse to identify myself as one.

yet you frequent Christian Forums.

My Irony meter just broke.

 

[Tenebrae]

Green, they want someone to blame..but it won't hold water on the Last Day. They blame us for pushing them away. No, they chose to walk away...I totally agree with you on this. SO sad.

Blaming the non christian for not accepting what the Christian has to say is also a convenient way of shifting the blame and avoiding taking responsibility for their own behavior.

Contrary to what many think, the way that the truth is delivered does count for alot

 

[StawberryCough]

that was rude of that person. But don't deny Jesus because some one acted that way. Quit trying to blame everyone else. Take responsibility for yourself and your actions...

I like Jesus, but I don't want people to think of that when I say I'm in the same group as him.

Should I have worded it differently? If it was worded badly, I'm truly sorry. Let me clarify. I became a Christian a year and a half ago, and beforehand, that's what made me so cynical. Being cold-hearted is a spiritual issue, not one of being a good or bad person.

Cold-hearted is a meaningless bloody insult with no intellectual value. "Oh great, I'm cold-hearted now, do I drink some coffee for that?" "Cold-hearted" isn't constructive critism.

Not to mention you have to know someone before you can insult them, otherwise it's just laughable.

Being a Christian means Jesus enters your heart and breathes life into it. Before that, we are *all* cold-hearted. Even the kindest of people.

That just doesn't make sense. "The nicest people are cold-hearted until they find Jesus", then why the hell are some of you the most dispicable, cold-hearted, peices of dog feces you'll ever meet?

What you tossin our doesn't match with reality. That's why it's not wrong. Intellectual dishonesty and fluff doesn't help anyone do anything but get angry.

 

[StawberryCough]

yet you frequent Christian Forums.

My Irony meter just broke.

I never said I hated argueing with Christians.

Buy a better one next time.

 

[joaddi3]

does it really make a christian person a monster for wanting to interact with other christians in a forum called "christian forum"??? would a christian expect to find a church of satanists at an assemblies of god church??? you would assume that a satanist wouldnt want to attend and they have the right not to. am i just not getting it??? whats wrong with wanting to be equally yoked in our fellowship???

 

[Uphill Battle]

I never said I hated argueing with Christians.

Buy a better one next time.

IOW, you frequent the site to do no more than disagree.

And you get angry when somebody might state you are diagreeable?

 

[GreenMunchkin]

This is completely moronic right here. I never said you shouldn't be allowed to say stupid things. Disagreement isn't persecution. Why is that such a hard concept the grasp?

I don't recall mentioning persection... I reject the fallacy that CF is now open to a free exchange.

Besides, I know I can win any debate against you or any Christian in here, why would I want to have you shut you up when knocking you around just makes me look good.

Bro, if pride like that is what makes you happy, you're truly welcome to it. If "knocking people down" makes you feel good, you're welcome to it.

But here's a question: given you've just called yourself a Christian, what kind of witness have you just been?

[quot]They are if they're doing it in a bad, disrespectful way, as many here have. You don't win hearts and souls by calling people "cold hearted" and dismissing their objections out of hand.[/quote]Read my interpretation on "cold-hearted".

I don't win hearts and souls *at all*. God does that. Sometimes He allows us to be a part of it. But we all of us, have a factory setting of being in a relationship with Him. It's what we're designed to have.

I didn't discard any objections. But nor will I accept that Christians quoting scriptures is driving people away from Jesus.

If the Bible flies in the face of reality and what is obviously true, instead of what is claimed to be true, then the Bible is wrong.

Well, give me an example...

I have not, nor will I ever substitute reason with faith as you have.

Aren't you doing exactly what you accused me of? How do you know what my beliefs are, or how I came to be where I am?

You and others in here seem to think you knows the hearts and minds of non-Christians better than they themselves.

Dude. See above.

What? Maybe this is like when you can't smell your own BO, but every one your posts has reaked of a holier-than-thou attitude. "Cold-hearted", as if you're not? "Freed", as if we're slaves" Someone talking about total depravity earlier. All This talk of "wolves", and "spiritual pedophiles", and "decievers", and "non-believers can't be trusted to govern believers", blah, blah, blah.

Of course people are slaves! We are slaves until Jesus, because He frees us. Lookit, given *all* the glory goes to God, I seriously don't see how anything I'm saying is holier-than-thou. Not one Christian - or non-Christian - deserves to be saved. Not one of us. Christians are saved by grace; not because they're good people.

I didn't see anything about paedophiles or wolves, so I can't comment.

And, yes, non-believers should not be in a leadership role within a Christian environment. Not because you're not "as good", but because we are so very different.

"Malice dressed in pious clothing", now where did I hear that...?

Moma always said a Christian will stab you in the back in the name of Jesus. Guess she was right.

This is just hyperbole. How can you presume to prescribe motives to what I say?

I want him, and you, to get to know Jesus because He's beautiful. But that doesn't mean sitting back while people accuse Christians of being bad witnesses simply because they quote scriptures. It just doesn't work that way.

With all due respect, if you think there's anything back-stabby going on, that speaks to your perception more than my motives.

 

[StawberryCough]

IOW, you frequent the site to do no more than disagree.

Gotta disagree to debate, that's what I seek, so yea. Debating is like a sharpening stone, honing the precision of your mind. Is that bad?

And you get angry when somebody might state you are diagreeable?

I haven't said anything in the topic out of anger. Honesty, yes, blunt, yea, even condemning, but no anger.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Cold-hearted is a meaningless bloody insult with no intellectual value. "Oh great, I'm cold-hearted now, do I drink some coffee for that?" "Cold-hearted" isn't constructive critism.

Not to mention you have to know someone before you can insult them, otherwise it's just laughable.

Two things.

First, "cold-hearted" is in no way an insult.

Secondly, you're being incredibly mean, and you don't know me. Are you willing to look at your own behaviour, or is it easier to attack others for theirs based on your perception?

That just doesn't make sense. "The nicest people are cold-hearted until they find Jesus", then why the hell are some of you the most dispicable, cold-hearted, peices of dog feces you'll ever meet?

I can only assume you've been mistreated *appallingly* to be this angry at people you don't even know.

But, you have a point. And the truth is, I don't know. But also keep in mind, just cos someone *says* they are a Christian, it doesn't mean they are one. Hitler claimed to be a Christian, and yet he was obsessed with Nietzsche and his atheistic writings. Some people still believe he was a Christian. But he clearly wasn't.

But, still, many who are saved still behave with immense cruelty, and I don't know why.

What you tossin our doesn't match with reality. That's why it's not wrong. Intellectual dishonesty and fluff doesn't help anyone do anything but get angry.

Why do you feel angry? Because you disagree with me?

Again, you're accusing me of dishonesty, despite not knowing me, simply because you disagree with me.

Do I now have the right to say: I despise Christians. I don't want any part of it...?

 

[Thing]

What if Christians are guilty of circular reasoning? Using knowledge without facts can easily lead us to a clearly false conclusion. Conclusions drawn in this manner are usually overgeneralizations. Christians filled with the Holy Spirit do not make assumption and will not act like Job's friends, making bad assumption based on what someone is facing when they don't know all of the facts.

So... if people can be shown to be making false assumptions, can we thus demonstrate that they are not 'filled with the holy spirit'? Is that the same as not being a True Christian?