Never knew this before...

[paulewog]

In my Physics class we're going through thermodynamics and we learned about water. Now I knew water was 'backwards' and expanded when you froze it... but I did not know that it is most dence at four degrees celsius.

I'm just wondering how an evolutionist would attempt to explain this rather interesting happening

 

[Jerry Smith]

<bites tounge>

 

[Nathan David]

An evolutionist wouldn't be anymore qualified than anyone else, because you're talking about chemistry not biology. I'm neither a chemist nor a biologist but I seem to remember it has to do with the shape of the water molecule. When water freezes the hydrogen atoms are at the furthest point they can be from the oxygen atom so ice takes up more volume than the same mass of water.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by paulewog
In my Physics class we're going through thermodynamics and we learned about water. Now I knew water was 'backwards' and expanded when you froze it... but I did not know that it is most dence at four degrees celsius.

I'm just wondering how an evolutionist would attempt to explain this rather interesting happening

/me thinks probably the same way a chemist would.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I can't wait to see how the density of water at four degrees centigrade ties in with evolution-violates-the-second-law-of-blah-blah-blah....

There is a point to the OP, no?

 

[Jerry Smith]

While the evolutionists are puzzling over the properties of H2O, there is something we could use creationist input on in this thread, posts #126 &amp; 127 on page 13.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

An evolutionist would describe it the same way a physicist or chemist would. On the other hand, since most physicists and chemists ARE evolutionists, I guess it would be a good idea to go and ask one - that way you kill two birds with one stone.

Hint - it all has to do with the bonding angle of H2O

 

[Arikay]

Yep, I agree with everyone else. Evolution has nothing to do with the density of water. To expand on that, evolution also has nothing to do with the the very first origins of life.

Im only making a guess, but cold things contract, water expands because when it turns into ice it crystalizes and that makes it expand. However, water thats cold but not ready to turn into a crystal yet, would probably be the most dense state.

 

[euphoric]

Originally posted by paulewog
In my Physics class we're going through thermodynamics and we learned about water. Now I knew water was 'backwards' and expanded when you froze it... but I did not know that it is most dence at four degrees celsius.

I'm just wondering how an evolutionist would attempt to explain this rather interesting happening

What's with the phrasing here.&nbsp; Seems awfully smug.&nbsp; Why do some people think that they've found crushing problems with evolutionary theory in concepts that are covered in basic science classes?

Here's a good explanation on a website for elementary school classes:

&nbsp;Why does water expand when it freezes?

So what miraculous explanation would evolution deniers give for this phenomenon?

-brett

 

[notto]

Didn't Jack Chick cover this in Big Daddy? Oh, wait, that was Jesus holding atoms together miraculously. Something I guess "evolutionists" couldn't explain.

 

[paulewog]

No, not most chemists/scientists/etc are evolutionists Well, I know that there are a lot of Christian-creation-believing scientists, anyways. I haven't taken a poll lately hehe

What I meant, if you must nitpick on my post, is how an evolution-believing scientist would explain it. I'm not sure there IS one, I was just wondering if it'd been brought up before, what the answers were, that sort of stuff.

Sorry if it sounded smug, people seem to take my way of talking that way sometimes =D And my smiles are not smirks or anything, I'm just a happy guy

The reason I find it interesting isn't because evolution-disobeys-this-law or anything like that, but I thought it rather showed a kind of order and definite plan to the world. But I was trying not to get into an argument about laws/order/plans but just wondering if anyone had heard of any theory/whatever about the water thing...

In answer to Brett, I don't give a 'miraculous' explanation, I would say though that it is that way because God created it that way and knew it had to be that way for aquatic life under ice.

 

[seebs]

I don't see it as some kind of miraculous plan, I see it as something you would expect given the qualities of the things involved. It's not especially surprising.

Furthermore, since when is belief in evolution inconsistent with thinking that basic physical laws are designed? Lots of people believe both.

 

[Jerry Smith]

I'd like to second seebs. I don't think this gives the evolutionist anything to explain. Maybe this was meant as an apologetic invocation of the anthropic "coincidence" - in which case it might be addressed from theists of any stripe to atheists in general.

But while evolution has nothing to explain about H2O, there is still some interesting evidence that creationism needs to be working on...
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/32855.html - particularly posts #126 & 127 on page 13.

 

[Arikay]

Well its one of those fun things. There is a good chance that if ice didnt float we wouldnt be here, and so if ice didnt float, we wouldnt be here to qestion it. . But ice does float, so we are here and can question it.

Originally posted by paulewog
No, not most chemists/scientists/etc are evolutionists Well, I know that there are a lot of Christian-creation-believing scientists, anyways. I haven't taken a poll lately hehe

What I meant, if you must nitpick on my post, is how an evolution-believing scientist would explain it. I'm not sure there IS one, I was just wondering if it'd been brought up before, what the answers were, that sort of stuff.

Sorry if it sounded smug, people seem to take my way of talking that way sometimes =D And my smiles are not smirks or anything, I'm just a happy guy

The reason I find it interesting isn't because evolution-disobeys-this-law or anything like that, but I thought it rather showed a kind of order and definite plan to the world. But I was trying not to get into an argument about laws/order/plans but just wondering if anyone had heard of any theory/whatever about the water thing...

In answer to Brett, I don't give a 'miraculous' explanation, I would say though that it is that way because God created it that way and knew it had to be that way for aquatic life under ice.

 

[Jerry Smith]

Arikay,

Its even funner. What if ice didn't float, but most other materials lost density when freezing. What sort of critters would be here marveling about how lucky they were that ice didn't float?

 

[euphoric]

Originally posted by Jerry Smith
Arikay,

Its even funner. What if ice didn't float, but most other materials lost density when freezing. What sort of critters would be here marveling about how lucky they were that ice didn't float?

Well, after that global flood, probably only the ones who weren't made out of ice,

-brett

 

[notto]

Was there even ice before the flood?
Was there ice in paradise?

If there was no rain before the flood, was there snow?

 

[Arikay]

Well, probably not.

There ar quite a few reasons why ice floating is good. A couple of them:

Ice insulates a deep body of water, this helps keep the water underneath above freezing, keeping many fish and other animals alive.

If Ice was denser than water, ice would form on the top of water (like it does now) and then sink. sending sheets of ice falling to the bottom of the water. Possibly allowing the water underneath to freeze, but the fish wouldnt be happy about the falling ice.

also if ice was denser than water, the polar ice caps would sink down into the water, displacing it and causing the oceans to rise, and take away land mass.

[smile]

Originally posted by euphoric
Well, after that global flood, probably only the ones who weren't made out of ice,

-brett

 

[Orihalcon]

unless it was a flash-freezing, there wouldn't be falling ice anyway. it would just start getting frosty at the bottom, and a gradual buildup of ice. generally, cold things are more dense, the coldest liquid water would sink to the bottom while it was freezing

 

[Arikay]

I guess it would really depend on how dense the water got. If it only became slightly denser, then it would need to form a chunk before it sank. If it was much denser, it would sink quicker. either way im sure the fish would be unhappy breathing in pieces of ice, no matter how small.

Originally posted by Orihalcon
unless it was a flash-freezing, there wouldn't be falling ice anyway. it would just start getting frosty at the bottom, and a gradual buildup of ice. generally, cold things are more dense, the coldest liquid water would sink to the bottom while it was freezing