Never heard one Christian answer this successfully...

Sorry you can't think things through

razeontherock said:

Sorry you can't think things through

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Hi Ray, I'm not picking on you but I think you need to be careful not to offend our atheist neighbours. Keep this verse in mind:

Unity and Maturity in the Body of Christ

1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

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I have discovered recently that some of our atheist neighbours actually have golden tongues, which is more than can be said for some Christians. The thing they lack is faith in the information in the Bible, and it is our duty to present the information in a way that they will find receptive. It is always difficult to receive correction, so as Christians it does call for an extra effort of forbearance when dealing with those who harbour contention due to their misunderstandings or their prior dealings with less mature Christians than yourself. I hope you can take this with a grain of salt, as we are told that we are the salt of the earth and if we lose our flavour we are only good to be trodden underfoot, I certainly would hate to see that happen to a brother I love

oi_antz said:

I have discovered recently that some of our atheist neighbours actually have golden tongues, which is more than can be said for some Christians.

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Antz, thanks for stepping into this difficult situation. It's certainly true I have no golden tongue, and I'm reminded of watching US Presidential debates in the primaries as Bill Clinton first attempted to become President. He was accused of being a "silver tongued politician," which he took as a compliment. I usually don't make snap decisions, but he instantly lost all credibility with me. Turns out I was WAY more than right!

oi_antz said:

It is always difficult to receive correction, so as Christians it does call for an extra effort of forbearance when dealing with those who harbour contention due to their misunderstandings or their prior dealings with less mature Christians than yourself.

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Actually i love correction. In this instance there is some great wisdom in response to our OP, from many sources. He's not showing misunderstanding, but has flatly not responded to any of it.

oi_antz said:

we are the salt of the earth and if we lose our flavour we are only good to be trodden underfoot, I certainly would hate to see that happen to a brother I love

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It is not me that is being belittled and cast aside, nor is it *merely* the Gospel. It is no less than the G-d of the Bible Himself the OP is calling stupid, and there are only 2 reasons:

1) the OP doesn't care to attempt to think these issues through to see what is being said in the answers he's given;

2) he actually can't think these things through. I would prefer to think this is not the case, and I know if I were presented with reactions such as I give him, I would be prompted to try a little harder.

And Muli, don't assume I post in a vacuum. There are always others that can help explain. Math teachers always hated me because I'd never show my work - but I always got the right answer, and quicker than they could do it themselves.

mulimulix said:

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?

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because iniquity was found in God's kingdom and eve and adam by eating the forbidden fruit allowed that seed to spread on our planet

Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?

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yes, as long as Satan and 1/3 of the angels are allowed to be there

Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?

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yes

Christian: *Head explodes*

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head does not explode

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

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I understand..

Love that tagline ...

razeontherock said:

Antz, thanks for stepping into this difficult situation. It's certainly true I have no golden tongue, and I'm reminded of watching US Presidential debates in the primaries as Bill Clinton first attempted to become President. He was accused of being a "silver tongued politician," which he took as a compliment. I usually don't make snap decisions, but he instantly lost all credibility with me. Turns out I was WAY more than right!

Actually i love correction. In this instance there is some great wisdom in response to our OP, from many sources. He's not showing misunderstanding, but has flatly not responded to any of it.

It is not me that is being belittled and cast aside, nor is it *merely* the Gospel. It is no less than the G-d of the Bible Himself the OP is calling stupid, and there are only 2 reasons:

1) the OP doesn't care to attempt to think these issues through to see what is being said in the answers he's given;

2) he actually can't think these things through. I would prefer to think this is not the case, and I know if I were presented with reactions such as I give him, I would be prompted to try a little harder.

And Muli, don't assume I post in a vacuum. There are always others that can help explain. Math teachers always hated me because I'd never show my work - but I always got the right answer, and quicker than they could do it themselves.

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It's ok to tell someone that they need to think more about what has been said, but there is a professional manner which will not lead to fighting. Remember that the tongue is a blade, you can use it to shave and you can use it to kill. In this case I didn't see any indication that Mulimulix was behaving in a difficult manner, so a little patience and forbearance is required with such people whose understanding of Christianity is less mature than your own.

I'm sure your intentions Ray are to help atheists learn what they seek about the kingdom rather than turn them against Christianity altogether, and the only way we are going to do that is by showing them the love of Jesus. But as I say, we aren't here to fight each other, but to help each other grow. Some of us have large gaps in our knowledge and it will take a bit more work for them to connect the dots, but that is when we need to be patient. Please don't take this too hard, I'm just saying that Mulimulix did not deserve to be snapped at, and from my observation, you could have said in much nicer way that he needed to think more about something that has been said.

I hope this helps guys, I just saw that this thread could have flamed had I not said this. By the way Ray, I didn't mean you don't have a golden tongue, some of what you say really cuts through. I have noticed though that occasionally your emotions get the better of you

mulimulix said:

I appreciate your concern and I find the only person who I have always had a problem discussing with is, in fact, Raze. I find he does not explain his points well and simply says something such as "You contradict yourself" or "That's funny" without saying why.

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Hi Mulimulix, in Ray's defence he has been studying Christianity much longer than I have. I think it is easy to overestimate the other party's level of knowledge and presume that they have some basic knowledge when often they don't. I was always told the very same thing when I was in the IT industry. It can be quite painstaking at times for experienced people to communicate with others who are at entry level, it really does require a lot of patience. So kudos to you Ray, and please don't feel like I'm picking on you here. It is clear that Jesus is conducting us to make some sort of point together

mulimulix said:

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

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There is evil in the world because Adam and Eve disobeyed God and became sinners and passed that sin on to all their decendants.
There is no sin in heaven because Jesus died on the cross to forgive sin and wash away peoples sins and give them His righteousness and free them from a sinful nature and give them a new heart and nature.
To all who want Jesus mercy and believe his words and trust in him and admit they are a sinner and come to him and ask for forgiveness and cleansing and receive him as their Saviour and Lord.They are redeemed and their sins washed away and they have freedom from a sinful nature in heaven,they have a new heart,all things are become new.They come and want all this of their own free will.They ask and they receive.They seek Him and they find him when they seek with all their heart and mean it.

cranberries said:

There is no sin in heaven because Jesus died on the cross to forgive sin and wash away peoples sins and give them His righteousness and free them from a sinful nature and give them a new heart and nature.

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Also remember that there is no devil in heaven whispering in our ear to encourage us to sin. So sin isn't even a temptation in heaven. Of course, if it wasn't for Jesus our sins would prevent us from ever standing in the presence of God in heaven.

oi_antz said:

Also remember that there is no devil in heaven whispering in our ear to encourage us to sin. So sin isn't even a temptation in heaven. Of course, if it wasn't for Jesus our sins would prevent us from ever standing in the presence of God in heaven.

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A devil whispering in our ear is not required for us to be tempted to be unloving to others.

mulimulix said:

So, are you saying that EVERYONE before Jesus went to hell?

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No I don't know what has happened to people that have passed on, I haven't experienced that for myself and I'm not a scholar, so anything I choose to believe about the afterlife is either taken on faith or it is regarded as speculation. My comment was purely about the serpent's influence on us while we are on earth "sons of dust". After that stage we are presumably in heaven with Jesus in the place He has prepared for us. I have never studied the afterlife so you are better to speak to others about that topic, but I know from Revelation 12 that the serpent doesn't roam there so we won't even think about committing sin when we are in heaven.

I've experienced a life without Satan, it lasted a few days and was total bliss in every direction I looked. Everyone was totally at peace and even the Ibis could walk on the table in front of me within arms reach and I could look them in the eye, there was absolutely no fear anywhere in sight! It was so convincing that I thought the whole world had experienced it, but apparently it was only me who experienced it. The memory of this gives me some hope to hang on to while I continue experiencing life in the reality that Jesus would have me know, that I can relate to those whose reality isn't such a state of absolute bliss.

So yeah, when Satan is gone the world will have peace and we will all be free to choose because all our options will be good things to choose. Is it making sense yet? If the story of Adam and Eve can show us something about this, everyone who trades in their life of sin for a life of holiness is restoring peace to the world they live in, whereas anyone who is a slave to sin is granting the serpent the right to stay in the garden and tempt them and to share that sin with the people around them. That is the spiritual war that goes on between the forces of good and evil, and the human has to decide one day whther they trust Jesus or someone else. Presumably you're at that stage because you're asking questions about it. Do you understand how simple Christianity is? Feel free to ask your biggest question, the worst that can happen is "dunno" or "I think maybe ...", but at least it will be food for thought.

elman said:

A devil whispering in our ear is not required for us to be tempted to be unloving to others.

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Hi elman, in this context I would say the sin is the disobedience to our conscience.

mulimulix said:

Well can you explain then how there is free will in heaven if there is no evil in heaven?

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There is free will in my household but no murders take place. Why not? Because neither my wife nor I have any desire to murder the other. The fact we choose not to doesn't change the fact that either of us could.

I think your question is quite silly. Makes me ask do you really SEEK a truthful answer or are you simply bored?

Of course there is free will in heaven. There is no evil there because God is there. Where God is, evil is not. Satan was Lucifer. An angel. He had freewill. He chose to use HIS will to dream up a silly circumstance (something much like your silly little question) with which he elevated himself in his own mind and declared himself God's equal. Turns out, in reality, he was not God's equal but actually a silly angel who, because of his vain pride, dreamed up a lie which he believed and set Himself in rebellion against God. Then, he (satan) also persuaded other angels with this lie. So God threw them out of heaven. Because they were evil. And God does not suffer evil to enter into heaven.

mulimulix said:

The argument goes something like this:

Atheist: Why is there evil in the world?
Christian: Because god gave everyone free will
Atheist: Ok, so is there evil in heaven?
Christian: Of course not...
Atheist: Is there free will in heaven?
Christian: *Head explodes*

An answer to this would be helpful for the further understanding of Christian logic

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There is evil in the world because satan is in the world and sometimes we are tempted and give in to that temptation. Satan is only in the world because God allows him to be here, he was originally in heaven with God one of the angels but decided that he wanted to be god, he was cast out of heaven. If you follow this logic right through it may be possible that this will happen again - was that the answer you wanted to hear?

The reason you have never heard a Christian answer this question right before is because you refuse to hear what they have to tell you... because you are in conscious rebellion against God and His Word. So, of course, you will not hear.

Also, how in the world would you know the right answer? I believe it is now time for you to tell us. If you do not know, then how in the world will you know whether or not WE have the right answer?

That's the problem: you have no ground to stand on because your professed faith STANDS UPON NOTHING! LOL I'm not trying to belittle you but I do hope you see the irony of this thinking. It's like watching a weasel running in circles, chasing his tail.

oi_antz said:

Hi elman, in this context I would say the sin is the disobedience to our conscience.

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Satan or a devil is not needed. All sin is man made and by our own choice. The devil never made me do it.