Nestorianism Clarification

fab13

New Member
Feb 23, 2022
2
0
33
Dallas
✟8,041.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Hi all! I just discovered this video about an Eastern Orthodox priest describing the Nestorianism present in the Last Temptation of Christ. It starts at 25:50 and is only about 2 minutes long.


There is also this discussion on an Orthodox forum about it. The best post is mid-way down.
This is how ecumenism is done folks.


Here's my question. I affirm Nestorianism was a heresy, but how do we uphold the Hypostatic Union, yet condemned Nestorian and the above video (where we agree with the Orthodox priest), but still reason through verses like Matthew 24:36 saying that Jesus was talking about not knowing in his humanity as many say? Doesn't this fall into the same trap of separating the natures?
 

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi all! I just discovered this video about an Eastern Orthodox priest describing the Nestorianism present in the Last Temptation of Christ. It starts at 25:50 and is only about 2 minutes long.


There is also this discussion on an Orthodox forum about it. The best post is mid-way down.
This is how ecumenism is done folks.


Here's my question. I affirm Nestorianism was a heresy, but how do we uphold the Hypostatic Union, yet condemned Nestorian and the above video (where we agree with the Orthodox priest), but still reason through verses like Matthew 24:36 saying that Jesus was talking about not knowing in his humanity as many say? Doesn't this fall into the same trap of separating the natures?
I am afraid that you clip does not tell me much about the dispute. Jesus had two natures those natures are complete, the human nature was certainly capable of being tempted but because that human nature was filled with the Holy Spirit it was able to resist the temptation. The human nature did not have the same knowledge that the Divine nature had.
 
Upvote 0

enoob57

Well-Known Member
Feb 16, 2022
519
129
66
Grove, Ok.
✟46,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Divorced
that human nature was filled with the Holy Spirit it was able to resist the temptation.
Where in Scripture do you find this filling...
OT prophecy
Isaiah 11:2 (KJV)
[2] And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

NT fulfillment
Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
 
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Where in Scripture do you find this filling...
OT prophecy
Isaiah 11:2 (KJV)
[2] And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

NT fulfillment
Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
I would suggest it started when He was a child, notice when He was teaching at the temple, that did not all come from an unfilled human nature
 
Upvote 0

enoob57

Well-Known Member
Feb 16, 2022
519
129
66
Grove, Ok.
✟46,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Divorced
I would suggest it started when He was a child, notice when He was teaching at the temple, that did not all come from an unfilled human nature
So it is a presumption on your part... not any Scripture saying so. I think this is a very dangerous approach to the study of God's Word. The very obvious is relying upon thoughts and intuitions of self rather than on thus sayeth The Lord...
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,708.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Here's my question. I affirm Nestorianism was a heresy, but how do we uphold the Hypostatic Union, yet condemned Nestorian and the above video (where we agree with the Orthodox priest), but still reason through verses like Matthew 24:36 saying that Jesus was talking about not knowing in his humanity as many say? Doesn't this fall into the same trap of separating the natures?
You're probably aware of the ancient discussions about the incarnate Christ in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Ecumenical Councils. The discussion involves the meaning of the terms "physis," "hypostasis," and "prsosopon."

Oriental Orthodox believe that Christ is one physis, one hypostasis, and one prosopon. This is called Miaphysitism.

Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants believe that Christ is two physes, one hypostasis, and one prsosopon. This is called Chalcedonianism.

Assyrian Church believes that Christ is two phases, two hypostases, and one prosopon. This is called Nestorianism.

This sounds way too complicated, especially when people use different definitions for different terms.

On a more practical level, especially as related to the movie, the question is whether Christ was tempted or not. the Bible says:

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every respect as we are, but without sinning.

Everyone agrees that Christ is sinless. And everyone agrees that Satan tempted Him. The movie shows Christ beginning to entertain the temptation, turning it over in his head pleasurably. The Orthodox priest said that that could not have happened unless Christ has 2 hypostases, which is Nestorianism. The Catholic priest responded that it could have happened because Christ has 2 physes, which is compatible with Chalcedonianism.

As far as Mat 24:36 is concerned, we assert that the Son of God is omniscient and knows all things. Christ said this as the Son of Man, the representative of humanity. He basically meant to tell the disciples that knowing the date of the end is not for humanity to speculate about.
 
Upvote 0

fab13

New Member
Feb 23, 2022
2
0
33
Dallas
✟8,041.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Thanks, Andrewn. For what it's worth, I'm actually pretty steeped in church history, especially the first 7 ecumenical councils. Which is why I was throw off by the Eastern Orthodox priest.

So what are your thoughts specifically on what he said? Do you agree with the Nestorianism accusation?
 
Upvote 0

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So it is a presumption on your part... not any Scripture saying so. I think this is a very dangerous approach to the study of God's Word. The very obvious is relying upon thoughts and intuitions of self rather than on thus sayeth The Lord...
The teaching at the temple is in Scripture. You are familiar with this event are you not? It speaks to the knowledge that Jesus has about God, it is far more than what even the teachers had.
 
Upvote 0

enoob57

Well-Known Member
Feb 16, 2022
519
129
66
Grove, Ok.
✟46,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Divorced
The teaching at the temple is in Scripture. You are familiar with this event are you not? It speaks to the knowledge that Jesus has about God, it is far more than what even the teachers had.
Our conversation started with you saying Jesus was filled with The Holy Spirit and the Scriptures say The Spirit, at His baptism, came upon Him... this above says nothing of The Holy Spirit?
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,708.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
For what it's worth, I'm actually pretty steeped in church history, especially the first 7 ecumenical councils. Which is why I was throw off by the Eastern Orthodox priest.
Excellent. What is your opinion about the 3 groups, then?

It looks to me like in recent years both Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrians are becoming increasingly convinced that their beliefs are not much different from the Chalcedonians. And the latter are also becoming convinced that the other 2 groups express similar beliefs in different terms. As far as I see it, there are now 2 questions about the consequences of these positions:

1) Did Christ have 1 will or 2 wills: monothelitism vs dyothelitism.
2) Did God die on the cross: theopaschitism vs impassibility.

Frankly, I see Nestorian tendencies in Evangelical churches. Whether they are the result of critical thinking or general ignorance of theology, I am not sure. I suspect it is probably the latter. And then we have WL Craig whose theology goes all the way to the opposite end.

So what are your thoughts specifically on what he said? Do you agree with the Nestorianism accusation?
On one hand, I like the movie and have watched it many times, years ago. On the other hand, if you want to analyze it theologically, the EO priest is probably correct.

The debate you presented shows how difficult it is, even within the Chalcedonian groups, to agree on what exactly "hypostasis" means.

We know what physis means and what prsosopon means. But "hypostasis" is difficult to define. It is not simple a "person" in the modern understanding of the word. And this confusion about its meaning extends to understanding the Trinity.

Now, I'm looking forward to listening to you :).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

disciple Clint

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2018
15,258
5,990
Pacific Northwest
✟200,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Our conversation started with you saying Jesus was filled with The Holy Spirit and the Scriptures say The Spirit, at His baptism, came upon Him... this above says nothing of The Holy Spirit?
Jesus was spirit filled before His baptism, His knowledge of the scriptures at His early age say much about the Holy Spirit being within Him.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,708.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Jesus was spirit filled before His baptism, His knowledge of the scriptures at His early age say much about the Holy Spirit being within Him.
Yes, I agree. Even before his birth the Angel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary:

Luk 1:32 The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,436
11,981
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,167,733.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Jesus was spirit filled before His baptism, His knowledge of the scriptures at His early age say much about the Holy Spirit being within Him.
That's kinda redundant isn't it? Jesus is God. God is spirit. It's almost like you are saying Jesus was full of himself.
 
Upvote 0

enoob57

Well-Known Member
Feb 16, 2022
519
129
66
Grove, Ok.
✟46,458.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Divorced
To respect God's Word is to follow it's instruction

Revelation 22:18 (KJV)
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


If the Word of God says it then we say it... if it does not say it then we do not say it...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,708.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That's kinda redundant isn't it? Jesus is God. God is spirit. It's almost like you are saying Jesus was full of himself.
I wouldn't say it is redundant. The Nicene Creed says about the incarnation:

Who for us humans and for our salvation
came down from heaven:
And was incarnate by the Holy Spirit
of the Virgin Mary,
and became human.

It sounds like 3 persons are involved:

1) Christ, who came down from heaven
2) the Holy Spirit
3) the Virgin Mary

Similarly, in Luk 1:32, there is:

1) the Holy Spirit
2) the power of the Most High
3) the Virgin Mary

We know that Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God (1Co 1:24).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,342
26,788
Pacific Northwest
✟728,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The Mystery of the Incarnation involves things that, quite simply, we don't know and don't have [good] answers for.

We know that Jesus, being true and very God of true and very God, knows all things. And at the same time, Jesus states explicitly that not even He knows the day or hour.

How can He who knows all things not know something?

It appears to be a paradox, but the Incarnation is full of those.

We know that God cannot die, and yet God died on the cross, because Jesus Christ is both God and man.

How can God who cannot suffer, suffer? How can God who cannot die, die? How can God who knows all things not know something?

The answer is that He who is from all eternity true God, only-begotten and eternal Son of the Father, became human--truly human--like us in all ways but without sin. Without ever ceasing to be what He has always been.

And we cannot divide the Person (Nestorianism) nor confuse Jesus' humanity and Deity (Eutychianism).

We are therefore compelled to confess by Christian truth that our Lord Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, perfect in Godhood and manhood; consubstantial with the Father as God of God, only-begotten Son and Word of the Father; and also consubstantial with us human beings, conceived and begotten of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, fully human, of a rational soul and body, like us in all ways but without sin. Jesus Christ is the one undivided and unconfused God-Man.

There are things about that that we will never wrap our minds around, because the finite mind cannot fathom how the infinite can be fully within the finite; some have even argued that it is impossible for the infinite to be in the finite--and yet that is precisely the Incarnation: The infinite, eternal, almighty, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Deity, God the Son, became man and all the fullness of Deity was in bodily form, sharing our weakness, our fragility, and even our death; that by Him might come an end to sin and death and freedom of captives and the salvation of the whole world. By His life, death, resurrection, and coming again on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0