Nephilites need help

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PETE_

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6:1–4 Who Married the Daughters of Men?
Few texts in the history of interpretation have aroused more curiosity and divergence of opinion than Genesis 6:1–4. It is at once tantalizing and deeply puzzling.
What is most difficult is the identification of the main participants in this short narrative—the “sons of God,” the “daughters of men” and the “Nephilim” (or “giants”). An impressive array of scholars has lined up for each of the three major positions taken on the identification of these three groups of participants. The three positions may be labeled “the cosmologically mixed races view” (angels and humans), “the religiously mixed races view” (godly Sethites and worldly Cainites) and “the sociologically mixed races view” (despotic male aristocrats and beautiful female commoners).
By all odds, the view that may perhaps claim the greatest antiquity is the cosmologically mixed races, or the angel theory, view. The pseudepigraphal and noncanonical 1 Enoch, dating from around 200 b.c., claims in 6:1–7:6 that two hundred angels in heaven, under the leadership of Semayaz, noticed that the humans had unusually beautiful daughters. These they desired for themselves, so they took a mutual oath to go down to earth together, and each took a wife. They taught these wives magical medicine, incantations, the cutting of roots and the care of plants. When the women became pregnant, they gave birth to giants that reached three hundred cubits. The giants in turn consumed all the food, thereby arousing the deep hatred of the earthlings. The giants turned to devouring the people along with the birds, wild beasts, reptiles and fish. Then it was that the earth, having had enough of these huge bullies, brought an accusation against them.
The famous Jewish historian Josephus (born 37 b.c.) also appears to follow this angel theory. He wrote, “Many angels accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust” (Antiquities 1.3.1). Likewise, the Greek translation of the Bible of the third century b.c. reads “angels of God” for the phrase “sons of God” in Genesis 6:2. In spite of the antiquity of the cosmologically mixed races view, there are such overwhelming problems with it that it is not recommended as the solution to this problem. While it is true, of course, that the term “sons of God” does occur in Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 with the meaning “angels” (and that the phrase “sons of the mighty” appears in Ps 29:1 and 89:7 with the meaning “angels”), it does not fit well here for several reasons.
Nowhere else in Scripture are we told that angels married humans. In fact, our Lord specifically stated that angels do not marry (Mk 12:25). And though the Septuagint translated the expression as being equivalent to “angels,” it is in fact only the Alexandrian manuscript that does so. The critical edition by Alfred Rahlfs does not reflect the angelic interpretation.
Even more serious is the problem of why judgment should fall on the humans and on the earth if the angels of heaven were the cause of the trouble. God should have flooded heaven, not earth. The culprits came from above; the women seem to have been doing nothing except being beautiful!
Some, however, will appeal to the New Testament passages of 1 Peter 3:18–20, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6–7 for further support of the angel theory. But these passages do not say anything about angelic marriages. To argue from the phrase “in a similar way” in Jude 7 that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is the same as the sin of Genesis 6:1–4 claims too much, for the sin of sodomy is not the same thing as marrying a wife from another part of the universe! In fact, “in a similar way” does not compare the sin of the angels with the sin of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah; instead, it compares the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah with the sins of “the cities about them” (that is, Admah and Zeboiim; see Deut 29:23 and Hos 11:8). Thus the sins of Jude’s angels (Jude 6) and the sins of the five cities of the plain (Jude 7) are held up as warnings of the judgment that could come to others. The fall of the angels that Jude mentions is that which took place when Lucifer fell. To connect this fall with the time of the flood because of the proximity of the references in Jude 4–7 would demand that we connect the flood with the overthrow of the five cities of the plain. But the events listed in Jude are successive, not simultaneous: (1) the fall in eternity of Satan (Jude 4), (2) the preaching of Noah prior to the flood (Jude 5) and (3) the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 6).
To allege that “giants” were the results of such sexual unions is once again to go beyond any data we possess in Scripture. Did the angels procreate without the use of natural bodies? Or did they already possess natural bodies? Or did they create for themselves natural bodies by the use of some mysterious, intrinsic, but rebellious power? Any and all answers to such questions would be purely speculative. To use extracanonical evidence such as 1 Enoch as a witness against or even for Scripture would be unprecedented.
The religiously mixed races view identifies the “sons of God” as the godly line of Seth. Given the sin they committed, they are generally looked on as the apostate line of Seth. “The daughters of men” are equated with the ungodly line of Cain. The sin condemned, then, would be the sin of being “unequally yoked”—that is, the marriage of believers to unbelievers.
This view also fails to meet the test of consistency with the biblical data and context. It uses the term men in verses 1 and 2 in two different senses: in verse 1 “men” is used to indicate humanity generically, while in verse 2 it is understood to refer to the Cainite line specifically. Suggesting such an abrupt change in meaning without any indication in the text is unwarranted.
But even more alarming is the problem of the offspring. Why would religiously mixed marriages produce nƒpnîlm-gibbôrîm (or, as some translate this Hebrew expression, “giants”)? Does the mixture of pagan and godly genes assure that the offspring’s DNA will be wild and grotesque?
This religiously mixed view should be abandoned as well as the cosmologically mixed view. Neither one can stand the weight of the evidence of the passage.
The preferable interpretation of this passage is the sociologically mixed view. “Sons of God” is an early, but typical, reference to the titularies for kings, nobles and aristocrats in the ancient Near Eastern setting. These power-hungry despots not only lusted after power but also were powerfully driven to become “men of a name” (or “men of renown”—Gen 6:4).
In their thirst for recognition and reputation, they despotically usurped control of the states they governed as if they were accountable to no one but themselves. Thus they perverted the whole concept of the state and the provision that God had made for some immediate amelioration of earth’s injustices and inequities (Gen 6:5–6; see also Gen 10:8–12). They also became polygamous, taking and marrying “any of [the women] they chose” (Gen 6:2).
What evidence can be produced for the correctness of this view? There are five lines of evidence. (1) The ancient Aramaic Targums render “sons of God” as “sons of nobles” (Targums of Onkelos), and the Greek translation of Symmachus reads “the sons of the kings or lords.” (2) The word gods (Hebrew ƒlōhîm) is used in Scripture for men who served as magistrates or judges (“Then his master must take him before the judges [ƒlōhîm],” Ex 21:6; see also Ex 22:8; Ps 82:1, 6). (3) Structurally, the account of the Cainite Lamech (Gen 4:19–24) and that of the “sons of God” in Genesis 6:1–4 are very much alike. In each there is the taking of wives, the bearing of children and the dynastic exploits. The former passage ends with a boast of judgment by Lamech, and the other ends with God’s decree of judgment. Lamech practiced bigamy (Gen 4:19), and he enforced his policies by using tyranny. The portraits are parallel and depict states of tyranny, corruption and polygamy. (4) Near Eastern discoveries have validated the pagan use of all sorts of gods’ and goddesses’ names in order to give more clout and prestige to the governments of Egypt and Mesopotamia—hence the title “sons of God.”
The fifth and final line of evidence concerns the nƒpīlîm/gibbôrôm of Genesis 6:4. The word nƒpīlîm occurs only here and in Numbers 13:33, where it refers to the Anakim, who were people of great stature. The root meaning of the word nƒpīlîm is “to fall.” However in Genesis 6:4 the nƒpīlîm are associated with the term gibbôrôm. The word gibbôrôm comes from gibbôrôm, meaning “a mighty man of valor, strength, wealth or power.” Nimrod, in Genesis 10:8, was such a gibbôrôm. He also was clearly a king in the land of Shinar. Hence the meaning of nƒpīlîm/gibbôrôm is not “giants,” but something more like “princes,” “aristocrats” or “great men.”
Genesis 6:1–4, therefore, is best understood as depicting ambitious, despotic and autocratic rulers seizing both women and power in an attempt to gain all the authority and notoriety they could from those within their reach. Their progeny were, not surprisingly, adversely affected, and so it was that God was grieved over the increased wickedness on planet Earth. Every inclination of the hearts and thoughts of humanity was evil. Thus the flood had to come to judge humankind for the perversion of authority, the state, justice and human sexuality.​
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=4812942#_ftn1http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=4812942#_ftnref1Kaiser, W. C. 1997, c1996. Hard sayings of the Bible. InterVarsity: Downers Grove, Il
 
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SummaScriptura

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The Nephilim of the Bible and of other contemporary Jewish literature were universally viewed as the offspring of angelic-human couplings.

When the folks who wrote the older testament scriptures, the Jews, were the only interpreters of those scriptures the explanation of Genesis 6:1-4 was as follows, the heavenly sons of God, the Watchers (a class of angels) lusted after the daughters of mankind and conspired to break God's law, leave their assigned abode in heaven, take human wives, defile themselves by sexual relations with women and to beget children who turned out to be gigantic. That was the unified Semitic view from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism.

This can be confirmed by anyone by picking up a copy of "The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition", by Florentino Garcia Martinez, Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar, and Florentino Garcia Martinez. This is THE MOST exhaustive collection of the non-Hebrew-Bible Dead Sea Scrolls that is available.

If one begins at the beginning of those volumes and proceeds to read through these fragments from hundreds of Jewish religious documents from about the time of Christ, one will get a profound sense that the preoccupation with the Watcher/Giant saga among Jewish writers during and before the time of Christ, borders on obsession. In addition to all of the books of the Hebrew Bible, the Dead Sea Scrolls include many story fragments from the lives of Lamech, Noah, Enoch, Methuselah and the rest as well as numerous accounts of the history of the Nephilim, the gigantic offspring of the Watchers.

One is stricken with the sheer lack of controversy among these writers on this point. To date, I have yet to find even one example from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism wherein some rabbi or religious writer has a controversy with the Watcher/Nephilim thesis, though controversy abounds on other subjects.

There is evidence that this view prevailed among New Testament writers in the New Testament books as well, but that is perhaps better addressed in another post or thread.

Certainly the idea that angels could even interbreed with human women seems repugnant to our modern sensibilities and apparently it was also for the leaders of the Church from the fourth century forward. I would like to propose however, this offense to our sensibilities has more to do with Greek philosophical assumptions about the nature of angels than it does with any scriptural basis.

I have detected several areas in which the Church's ideas concerning angels are at major variance with the dominant view during the time of Christ; here are a two:

1. Angelic substantiality
Per the prevailing ideas about angels among Christians of all stripes, angels are viewed as spirits, without materiality. Western ideas about the essential differences between human carnality and angelic spirituality make the idea of angelic/human copulation seem impossible. In the Semitic writings from 2nd-Temple Judaism no such problem can be detected. There is a consensus among Jewish writers from the period that angelic spirituality as well as angelic carnality were both real, and not mutually exclusive. The writer of the Book of Jubilees even speaks of angels having been created in a circumcised state from the beginning.

2. Angelic peccability
Per the prevailing ideas of Christians there seems to be somewhat a consensus that somewhere in very ancient times there occurred a rebellion among the members of the heavenly angelic hosts. Whatever the reasons for this rebellion, the result was certain angels aligned themselves with Lucifer, rebelled against God and thus sinning, fell. A seemingly assumed corollary to this view is the idea commonly held among Christians that those angels who did not fall, stood the test and are thenceforth immune to further testing, temptation and the possibility of sinning. No such assumptions can be detected amongst Jewish writers from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism. Not only was it believed angels fell during the time of Jared the father of Enoch, but previous fallings had occurred and future fallings were predicted.

For me, what Jewish writers before the time of Christ believed about this point holds more persuasive weight than when it was controverted by Christendom centuries later. To the Jews were given the lively oracles of God. The oracles were in a language whose meanings would have been more immediate to them than to us. The Jews lived closer to the times of the actual composition of those writings and thus were more likely to be the inheritors of original traditions related to their exposition, interpretation and understanding.

Bob Burns
San Francisco
 
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nephilimiyr

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Appendix 25 from the Companion Bible.

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (see notes on Genesis 6, and are called in Genesis 6, N[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1] e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]-phil´-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall). What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture. They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Genesis 3:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]). [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]This was why the Flood was brouhgt "upon the world of the ungodly" ([/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]Peter 2:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]). [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]But we read of the N[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]philim again in Numbers 13:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] : "there we saw the N[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]philim, the sons of Anak, which come of the N[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]philim". How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood ? The answer is contained in Genesis 6:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1], where we read: "There were N[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]philim in the earth in those days (that is to say, in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Hebrew gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (literally, men of the name, that is to say, who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness). [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]So that "after that", that is to say, after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan". It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Genesis 12:[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated: "The Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land." And in Genesis 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] they were already known as "Rephaim" and "Emim", and had established themselves as Ashteroth Karnaim and Shaveh Kiriathaim. [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]In chapter 15:[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18-21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples: "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Genesis 15:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19-21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; compare Exodus 3:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8,17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 23:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Deuteronomy 7; 20:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Joshua 12:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]). [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deuteronomy 20:[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Joshua 3:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]). But Israel failed in this (Joshua 13:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 15:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]63[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 16:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 17:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Judges 1:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19,20,28,29,30-36[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 2:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 3:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-7[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]); and we know not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from one Anak which came of the N[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]philim (Numbers 13:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22,33[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]), and R[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]phaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them. [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]From Deuteronomy 2:[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1], they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (verse [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20,21[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]) and Avim, etc. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]As R[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]phaim they were well known, and are often mentioned: but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants". These R[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]phaim are to have no resurrection. This fact is stated in Isaiah 26:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] (where the proper name is rendered "deceased", and verse [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1], where it is rendered "the dead"). It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Psalm 88:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Proverbs 2:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 9:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 21:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]16[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Isaiah 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 26:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]). It is rendered "deceased" in Isaiah 26:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. [/SIZE][/FONT]


[SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]It is retained as proper name "R[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]phaim" ten times (two being in the margin). Genesis 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 15:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]20[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. Joshua 12:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] (margin). [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]Samuel 5:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18,22[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 23:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]Chronicles 11:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]; 20:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1] (margin). Isaiah 17:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]. In all other places it is rendered "giants" , Genesis 6:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1], Numbers 23:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1], where it is N[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]philim; and Job 16:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]14[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1], where it is gibbor. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings. [/FONT][/SIZE][SIZE=+1][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]It is certain that the second irruption took place before Genesis 14, for there the R[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=-1]e[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]phaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer. Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Genesis 14:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/FONT][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]). [/SIZE][/FONT]
 
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nephilimiyr

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Numbers 13:33:

We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."



This happened well after the flood - in fact when Israel was moving into Canaan - that's about 1400 BC (?). The flood happened about 2500 BC (?) - so it's a long time after the Nephilim were supposed to be wiped out.

It brings up an interesting approach to it...:)



Also: search for "Anak", "Rephaites", "Rapha" and "Nephilim" on biblegateway and watch the results - you'll get a lot of references from the books of Moses, as well as Joshua, etc. and Samuels etc.


Dis:p


We can't pin point the exact time but we know that by the time Abraham finally arived in Canaan, the nephilim were there. The thing is, they were not called the nephilim but the author, Moses, decided to refer to them by the clan they belonged to. Here's the part of my post above that talks about this.

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Genesis 12:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated: "The Canaanite was then (that is to say, already) in the land." And in Genesis 14:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] they were already known as "Rephaim" and "Emim", and had established themselves as Ashteroth Karnaim and Shaveh Kiriathaim. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]Genesis 14:5, in the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him came and attacked the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zumim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim,

[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]In chapter 15:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18-21[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman] they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples: "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girga$#@%es, and the Jebusites" (Genesis 15:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19-21[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; compare Exodus 3:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8,17[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 23:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Deuteronomy 7; 20:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshua 12:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). [FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deuteronomy 20:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Joshua 3:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]). But Israel failed in this (Joshua 13:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 15:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]63[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 16:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 17:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]. Judges 1:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19,20,28,29,30-36[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 2:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-5[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]; 3:[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1-7[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]); and we know not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction. If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Ok, how do we know that these people, these clans, are nephilim? There's only one other instance, other than Genesis 6, where these beings are called nephilim in the Hebrew. That passage is this:

Numbers 13:33, There we saw the giants(nephilim), the desendants of Anak came from the giants(nephilim); and we were like grasshopers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.

Here Moses just made the connextion that the sons of Anak, or otherwise known as the Anakim, were nephilim. Now fastforward to Deuteronomy 2.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11, The Emim had dwelt there in times past, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. They were also regarded as giants, like the Anakim, but the Moabites call them Emim.

Remember the Emims from Genesis 14? Now we know that the Emim were a nephilim clan and were present in Cacaan before Abraham got there.

Deut. 2:20-21, That was also regarded as a land of giants; giants formerly dwelt there. but the Ammonites call them Zamzummim, a people great and numerous and tall as the the Anakim. But the Lord destroyed them before them, and dispossessed them and dwelt in their place.

Remember the Zumim from Genesis 14? Now we know that the nephilim clan of the Zumim were a nephilim clan and were present in Canaan before Abraham got there. Now there are various other places in the scriptures where Moses wrote that discribes all of these other peoples, like the Rephaim and that Avim, being of the giants and or after the Anakim.

Notice how after Numbers 13:33 when Moses specifically names the sons of Anak as being nephilim, these beings are now refered to being a people after the Anakim. I see Moses actually painstakenly connexting the dots for us. All of these clans with the names of the Rephaim, the Emim, the Zumim, the Avim, etc. etc., are like the anakim and are giants like the anakim.

So, that's how we know that we can at least say the nephilim were in the land of Cacaan before Abraham got there.
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Rhamiel

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One has to have the same chromosomes to successfully breed.
Its some sort of metaphor
Howard(who is no expert either)
I used to think it was a metaphor for the people of God mixing with pagans, but on reading it agian, I think the simple reading of "some angels had sex with women and they had giant children" seems to make the most sense
also look at all the myths from pagan greece and babylon and every world mythology
gods come down and have sex with women and the kids are like superheros or something odd like that, Herecules, Gilgamesh, many Celtic heros whos names escape me at the moment because I can never remember celtic names, this would explain where people got the idea that this could happen, it is the story of the real nephalim being passed down and twisted to fit the pagan myths
 
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SummaScriptura

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I used to think it was a metaphor for the people of God mixing with pagans, but on reading it agian, I think the simple reading of "some angels had sex with women and they had giant children" seems to make the most sense
also look at all the myths from pagan greece and babylon and every world mythology
gods come down and have sex with women and the kids are like superheros or something odd like that, Herecules, Gilgamesh, many Celtic heros whos names escape me at the moment because I can never remember celtic names, this would explain where people got the idea that this could happen, it is the story of the real nephalim being passed down and twisted to fit the pagan myths

I think you're right on target with that explanation.
 
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SummaScriptura

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Actually, since Enoch was born about 1,000 years before the flood, the topic is quite a bit older than two years.

I think we should stop talking about it when Jesus returns since Jesus said the time before His return would be just like the times of Noah's day.
 
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Dark_Lite

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Actually, since Enoch was born about 1,000 years before the flood, the topic is quite a bit older than two years.

I think we should stop talking about it when Jesus returns since Jesus said the time before His return would be just like the times of Noah's day.

I meant the thread. The original post was in like 2007.
 
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Genesis 6:2
the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

HOWEVER
IF...
fallen angels =/= angels in heaven

THEN...
sons of God can be fallen angels
 
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