Neo-Darwinian evolution is in trouble INSIDE the scientific community

[pitabread]

I think theory of evolution is more of "out of date " , 150+ years without proof yet still people believe this crap.

Well, modern biological evolution is an applied science with real-world application in a variety of fields. So there is that.

Evolutionary principles and their practical application

Applying evolutionary biology to address global challenges | Science

The great opportunity: Evolutionary applications to medicine and public health

 

[bhsmte]

I think theory of evolution is more of "out of date " , 150+ years without proof yet still people believe this crap.

LOL

 

[Obliquinaut]

Because for example God is not restricted by 2nd Thermodynamic law , universe however is , because if it was eternal it would be infinitly old and there would be equal energy everywhere in universe , just by writting this message to you i prove that there is still enought energy to get it to you , that means there had to be beginning .

And here we are again with "special pleading". You are making claims that are simply ex catherdra statements. No matter what your argument on this it will ultimately devolve down to "I define God as super-special and therefore none of the things that are inconvenient to me apply."

WHY isn't God subject to the 2nd Law? Presumably because you define the concept of God as not being subject to any laws. Have you provided any actual information? Or just an arbitrarily defined concept that isn't beholden to any rules and then proceed to show the necessity of that concept because everything else is beholden to the rules.

 

[Ronald]

Those aren't the statistics I remember (for example, even in America, the hub of creationism, it's only around 35%) do you have a citation for those numbers?

About 48% of Americans believe that Man did not evolve, and was created as he is. The other half include the atheists and theistic evolutions. Of the 48% creationists, 11% of them are of other religions. So I guess the 37% percent are the Christians. And according to polls, 90% would say they believe in God, which leaves 79% of them would be Christian, so that's about a little less than half. Acceptance of evolution by religious groups - Wikipedia

 

[Obliquinaut]

I think theory of evolution is more of "out of date " , 150+ years without proof yet still people believe this crap.

Huh? Are you trying to pull a fast one with the use of "proof" there? Or are you interested in having an honest discussion about science qua science? (in other words science NEVER provides you with absolute proof, but rather the preponderance of evidence. In that case there is a huge preponderance of evidence for evolution. But as for "proof" well, you don't have "proof" of anything in science ever. You may have proofs in math, but not science per se.)

 

[pitabread]

About 48% of Americans believe that Man did not evolve, and was created as he is.

The most recent Gallup poll puts that number at only 38%: In US, Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low

It's also been on the decline for the last two decades now and based on demographics will likely continue to decline.

 

[Speedwell]

About 48% of Americans believe that Man did not evolve, and was created as he is. The other half include the atheists and theistic evolutions. Of the 48% creationists, 11% of them are of other religions. So I guess the 37% percent are the Christians. And according to polls, 90% would say they believe in God, which leaves 79% of them would be Christian, so that's about a little less than half. Acceptance of evolution by religious groups - Wikipedia

But that is only in the US, where the largest concentration of 'biblical' creationists is found.

 

[Ronald]

TBD! I guess we'll find out next month (is that the time?)

The near future is uncertain, I'm not certain when the Lord will return in Judgment, I just suspect Him soon and the signs all point to it. My exhortation applies to everyone, whether He comes sooner or later, that shouldn't be their motivation to seek Him out. The warning goes to those who may die tonight in a car crash or a heart attack. Judgment comes to everyone, it could be today for a person who has an unfortunate tragic accident today.
You played the word game, and picked (D.) none of the events that would happen in 3 years, except maybe a nuclear war. But I said at least they would begin by 2019. 9-23-17 is a sign that may either put things in motion or confirm that we are already in it. Who knows, the eclipse next month could trigger earthquakes since it's path is directly over a fault line. I don't know how strong the gravitational pull of both the sun and moon together would be? That would beg the question if Solar eclipses caused earthquakes in the past and if so how often and then figure the probability ... I don't know, that's speculation. N. Korea just said, we would suffer 1,000 times more for our new sanctions that the UN security council just imposed on them. And what if that mysterious Planet X arrives soon and messes with the planet and brings with it asteroids as well - I'm not about that, haven't seen proof. If it was two months away and 10x the size of earth, we should see it. Maybe the eclipse will reveal it since it supposed to be in direct path of the sun. I did say that if I am wrong about the 9-23-17 event, I would apologize but at the same time be relieved that it didn't trigger the Great Tribulation. Again, I would like to enjoy my daughters wedding and my retirement as well in this wonderful state of Texas.

 

[Ronald]

The most recent Gallup poll puts that number at only 38%: In US, Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low

It's also been on the decline for the last two decades now and based on demographics will likely continue to decline.

God's list is right on target, none of His sheep will be lost. Whoever is lost and remains is what He allows, not by His will, but by the person who rejects Him. Again, evolution, nature, mutations, they have no mind, no power to do anything. The spiritual influence comes from what we call darkness and the Father of Lies, Satan. His schemes are many and cover a wide range of fields, religions, philosophies. Their primary purpose is to keep people away from Jesus. Whatever they believe is fine, not believing in him is fine -- gives him more of an advantage. When you get close to Jesus, that's when he sends his troops.

 

[pitabread]

God's list is right on target, none of His sheep will be lost. Whoever is lost and remains is what He allows, not by His will, but by the person who rejects Him. Again, evolution, nature, mutations, they have no mind, no power to do anything. The spiritual influence comes from what we call darkness and the Father of Lies, Satan. His schemes are many and cover a wide range of fields, religions, philosophies. Their primary purpose is to keep people away from Jesus. Whatever they believe is fine, not believing in him is fine -- gives him more of an advantage. When you get close to Jesus, that's when he sends his troops.

 

[Speedwell]

God's list is right on target, none of His sheep will be lost. Whoever is lost and remains is what He allows, not by His will, but by the person who rejects Him. Again, evolution, nature, mutations, they have no mind, no power to do anything. The spiritual influence comes from what we call darkness and the Father of Lies, Satan. His schemes are many and cover a wide range of fields, religions, philosophies. Their primary purpose is to keep people away from Jesus. Whatever they believe is fine, not believing in him is fine -- gives him more of an advantage. When you get close to Jesus, that's when he sends his troops.

Satan is not doing his job if he tempts people to reject a literal Genesis while allowing them to continue to believe in their salvation through Christ's death and bodily resurrection. The only souls he will nab with that tactic are those of foolish Protestants who have been indoctrinated to believe that a literal Genesis is somehow requisite for faith in Christ.

 

[Ronald]

His sheep are not asleep when he calls -- have a nice nap.

 

[Obliquinaut]

The near future is uncertain, I'm not certain when the Lord will return in Judgment, I just suspect Him soon and the signs all point to it. My exhortation applies to everyone, whether He comes sooner or later, that shouldn't be their motivation to seek Him out. The warning goes to those who may die tonight in a car crash or a heart attack. Judgment comes to everyone, it could be today for a person who has an unfortunate tragic accident today.

I am prone to "expecting the worst but hoping for the best". I tend to be somewhat of a pessimist and prone to anxiety and worry. So you can imagine that this form of theology seems pathological.

I mean no offense. It may be fine for you. But whenever I read about how all the horrors that can happen so you better get right with God it reminds me why I needed to get away from religion.

You see the most "real" part of God was the threats. It never really felt like there was this "love" or even a real presence. After a while I realized since I didn't really "feel" God's presence I was maintaining my religious faith through a sense of obligation to forestall or be prepared for the worst things.

After a while I realized that was no way to live. I had enough issues to deal with without piling on a God whose love and presence I didn't actually feel and for whom I could find no real evidence but who was waiting there at the end with horrors aplenty if I didn't get it right.

Again, I would like to enjoy my daughters wedding and my retirement as well in this wonderful state of Texas.

We will agree to disagree on the wonderfulness of Texas.

 

[Subduction Zone]

His sheep are not asleep when he calls -- have a nice nap.

I suppose calling those that deny reality "sheep" is a bit insulting, but accurate.

Does it really matter how many largely uneducated people accept a scientific concept? It is much more reasonable judge by what those that study the topic think. And for those that study the science over 99% accept evolution.

 

[Ronald]

Satan is not doing his job if he tempts people to reject a literal Genesis while allowing them to continue to believe in their salvation through Christ's death and bodily resurrection. The only souls he will nab with that tactic are those of foolish Protestants who have been indoctrinated to believe that a literal Genesis is somehow requisite for faith in Christ.

You don't know what you are talking about. Satan cannot touch God's elect whether they believe in theistic evolution or not. Faith is based solely in Christ, OUR SAVIOR. There is no prerequisite for our belief to be valid, I never implied there was and if you've read my posts, I did state that clearly several times.
-----------------------------------
The Dangers of Theistic Evolution by Werner Gitt - edited by me


The biblical creation account should not be regarded as a myth, a parable, or an allegory, but as a historical report, because:

The doctrine of theistic evolution undermines this basic way of reading the Bible, as vouched for by Jesus, the prophets and the Apostles. Events reported in the Bible are reduced to mythical imagery, and an understanding of the message of the Bible as being true in word and meaning is lost.

The Bible describes man as being completely ensnared by sin after Adam’s fall . Only those persons who realize that they are sinful and lost will seek the Savior who ‘came to save that which was lost’.

However, evolution knows no sin in the biblical sense of missing one’s purpose (in relation to God). Sin is made meaningless, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Holy Spirit does. The Bible teaches that the first man’s fall into sin was a real event and that this was the direct cause of sin.

Theistic evolution does not acknowledge Adam as the first man, nor that he was created directly from ‘the dust of the ground’ by God . Most theistic evolutionists regard the creation account as being merely a mythical tale, albeit with some spiritual significance. However, the sinner Adam and the Saviour Jesus are linked together in the Bible. Thus any theological view which mythologizes Adam undermines the biblical basis of Jesus’ work of redemption.

The Bible provides us with a time-scale for history and this underlies a proper understanding of the Bible. This time-scale includes:

• The time-scale cannot be extended indefinitely into the past, nor into the future. There is a well-defined beginning in, as well as a moment when physical time will end .
  
  
• The total duration of creation was six days .
  
  
• The age of the universe may be estimated in terms of the genealogies recorded in the Bible (but note that it cannot be calculated exactly). It is of the order of several thousand years, not billions.
  
  
• The return of Christ in power and glory is the greatest expected future event.
  
  Supporters of theistic evolution (and progressive creation) disregard the biblically given measures of time in favor of evolutionist time-scales involving billions of years ...
  
  ... therefore, not all statements of the Bible are to be taken seriously.
  

& vigilance concerning the second coming of Jesus may be lost.

Creation concepts are taught in the Bible.

• God created matter without using any available material.
  
  
• God created the earth first, and on the fourth day He added the moon, the solar system, our local galaxy, and all other star systems. This sequence conflicts with all ideas of ‘cosmic evolution’, such as the ‘big bang’ cosmology.
  
  
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Genesis sets the foundation which the rest of the Bible builds on. If you distort it or don't take it literally and seriously, that mindset continues throughout the Bible, and so anything else you read may be a possible myth or allegory. How do you pick and choose? This is how many read the Bible, they pick and choose what they like and discard the rest. These are the same people who symbolize End Time Prophecy, especially the book of Revelation. And so they do not take that seriously or simply, it's happened already. This leads us to think life is just going to go on and on as it has for millions of years. God has a plan and He did not intend for mankind to suffer in a sinful world for eons without end. The End is Near ... after that, peace and good will towards men for a thousand years.

 

[Ronald]

I am prone to "expecting the worst but hoping for the best". I tend to be somewhat of a pessimist and prone to anxiety and worry. So you can imagine that this form of theology seems pathological.

I mean no offense. It may be fine for you. But whenever I read about how all the horrors that can happen so you better get right with God it reminds me why I needed to get away from religion.

You see the most "real" part of God was the threats. It never really felt like there was this "love" or even a real presence. After a while I realized since I didn't really "feel" God's presence I was maintaining my religious faith through a sense of obligation to forestall or be prepared for the worst things.

After a while I realized that was no way to live. I had enough issues to deal with without piling on a God whose love and presence I didn't actually feel and for whom I could find no real evidence but who was waiting there at the end with horrors aplenty if I didn't get it right.



We will agree to disagree on the wonderfulness of Texas.

Maybe the doom and gloom may seem pathological, but we all have this inner yearning desire for a perfect world. God put that desire in us - "Why can't we all get along?" Rodney King. Wars and rumors of wars, you'd think after a few thousand years we'd do away with evil, but man cannot because of this sin inside us - ALL OF US. So, as much as you think we are evolving, man will never create world peace and do away with world hunger and live in harmony -- unless this sickness of sin is dealt with. Only God can rid this planet of sin, so the gloom and doom must come, so He can get rid of it. Then without sin and evil in the world, we can all enjoy life to the fullest like never before. Wouldn't you expect that of God, to make things right? Well, life is a test, a period of time where we are given a chance to reconcile with Him.
I sympathize with you. My father was an atheist all his life. A good man, responsible, loved his family, worked hard but would always be devastated when someone in the family would die. He would say, "I should have spent more time with them ..." My half-brother died at a young age and that devastated him for many years. His father got sick and was dying when he was 10 years old and he got on his knees and prayed -- God didn't answer his prayer. I think He was angry. And with my brother, he said, I believe less in him. But at 83, one year prior to his death, he prayed once again to God because he had nothing left. He was weak, on dialysis and his days were numbered. I think God gets your attention sometimes when you get close to death -- because you begin to think, what's next or what was my purpose ... ? It took humility, he had to come to him like a child and drop of the misconceptions and doubts. "If you are there, show me ... I am willing to open the door of my heart. But as I said, faith comes by the WORD.

 

[Astrophile]

9-23-17 is a sign that may either put things in motion or confirm that we are already in it. Who knows, the eclipse next month could trigger earthquakes since it's path is directly over a fault line. I don't know how strong the gravitational pull of both the sun and moon together would be?

You may not know, but astronomers can calculate it. It isn't that difficult; the tidal force is directly proportional to the mass of the gravitating object and inversely proportional to the cube of its distance.

That would beg the question if Solar eclipses caused earthquakes in the past and if so how often and then figure the probability ... I don't know, that's speculation.

The supposed correlation between tides and earthquakes 'has been a subject of great debate for many years.' According to the British Geological Survey website http://www/earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquakeSunMoon.html , 'Several studies have reported no correlation between the Earth tide and earthquake occurrence, e.g. Kennedy et al., 2004. Other studies have reported small positive correlations, e.g. Kasahara, 2002. ... However, even if there is a statistical relationship between Earth tides and earthquake activity, it doesn't really help in earthquake prediction'.
You can, however, rest assured that the difference between the tidal force during an eclipse and the tidal force at an ordinary New Moon or Full Moon is not large enough by itself to precipitate an earthquake. If anything, the alignment is more likely to cause coastal flooding due to high tides.

And what if that mysterious Planet X arrives soon and messes with the planet and brings with it asteroids as well - I'm not about that, haven't seen proof. If it was two months away and 10x the size of earth, we should see it. Maybe the eclipse will reveal it since it supposed to be in direct path of the sun.

'That mysterious Planet X' doesn't exist; all the claims of its existence have been refuted. If it was ten times the size of the Earth (do you mean in mass or diameter?) and twenty years away, it would have been discovered. Also, it is quite impossible for any planet to remain invisible as a result of being aligned with the Sun for more than a few weeks.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You don't know what you are talking about. Satan cannot touch God's elect whether they believe in theistic evolution or not. Faith is based solely in Christ, OUR SAVIOR. There is no prerequisite for our belief to be valid, I never implied there was and if you've read my posts, I did state that clearly several times.
-----------------------------------
The Dangers of Theistic Evolution by Werner Gitt - edited by me


The biblical creation account should not be regarded as a myth, a parable, or an allegory, but as a historical report, because:

The doctrine of theistic evolution undermines this basic way of reading the Bible, as vouched for by Jesus, the prophets and the Apostles. Events reported in the Bible are reduced to mythical imagery, and an understanding of the message of the Bible as being true in word and meaning is lost.

That is too bad. The problem is that the Adam and Eve story is a myth. If your God made this Earth the evidence tells us that that is the case. If your God did not make this Earth then your whole argument is moot.

The Bible describes man as being completely ensnared by sin after Adam’s fall . Only those persons who realize that they are sinful and lost will seek the Savior who ‘came to save that which was lost’.

Yes, the is a problem for you isn't it?

However, evolution knows no sin in the biblical sense of missing one’s purpose (in relation to God). Sin is made meaningless, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Holy Spirit does. The Bible teaches that the first man’s fall into sin was a real event and that this was the direct cause of sin.

No, "sin" just needs another source. You jumped to an improper conclusion.

Theistic evolution does not acknowledge Adam as the first man, nor that he was created directly from ‘the dust of the ground’ by God . Most theistic evolutionists regard the creation account as being merely a mythical tale, albeit with some spiritual significance. However, the sinner Adam and the Saviour Jesus are linked together in the Bible. Thus any theological view which mythologizes Adam undermines the biblical basis of Jesus’ work of redemption.

You forgot that Jesus uses allegory, fable, poetic language and other means of teaching. His references to Adam do not need to be taken literally at all.

The Bible provides us with a time-scale for history and this underlies a proper understanding of the Bible. This time-scale includes:

• The time-scale cannot be extended indefinitely into the past, nor into the future. There is a well-defined beginning in, as well as a moment when physical time will end .

So that is another problem for the Bible.

• The total duration of creation was six days .

• And another.

• The age of the universe may be estimated in terms of the genealogies recorded in the Bible (but note that it cannot be calculated exactly). It is of the order of several thousand years, not billions.

Right, so you are saying that the Bible is wrong again. We could not even see the stars if that was the case.

• The return of Christ in power and glory is the greatest expected future event.
  
  Supporters of theistic evolution (and progressive creation) disregard the biblically given measures of time in favor of evolutionist time-scales involving billions of years ...
  
  ... therefore, not all statements of the Bible are to be taken seriously.

& vigilance concerning the second coming of Jesus may be lost.

Creation concepts are taught in the Bible.

• God created matter without using any available material.
  
  
• God created the earth first, and on the fourth day He added the moon, the solar system, our local galaxy, and all other star systems. This sequence conflicts with all ideas of ‘cosmic evolution’, such as the ‘big bang’ cosmology.
  
  
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Genesis sets the foundation which the rest of the Bible builds on. If you distort it or don't take it literally and seriously, that mindset continues throughout the Bible, and so anything else you read may be a possible myth or allegory. How do you pick and choose? This is how many read the Bible, they pick and choose what they like and discard the rest. These are the same people who symbolize End Time Prophecy, especially the book of Revelation. And so they do not take that seriously or simply, it's happened already. This leads us to think life is just going to go on and on as it has for millions of years. God has a plan and He did not intend for mankind to suffer in a sinful world for eons without end. The End is Near ... after that, peace and good will towards men for a thousand years.

Boring, repeating your errors does not help you.

If the universe was as young as you think it is we would not even be able to see all of the stars in our own galaxy, much less the other galaxies.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Well, life is a test, a period of time where we are given a chance to reconcile with Him.

I would think that if it was important enough to Him He would have made himself felt. I tried.

I sympathize with you. My father was an atheist all his life.

I wasn't an atheist all my life. In fact, most of my life I was a Christian.

God didn't answer his prayer. I think He was angry. And with my brother, he said, I believe less in him. But at 83, one year prior to his death, he prayed once again to God because he had nothing left. He was weak, on dialysis and his days were numbered.

Look, I get it. I feel for your loss, but my experience doesn't necessarily conform to your Chick Tract Cartoon version of things. But thanks for trying.

I think God gets your attention sometimes when you get close to death -- because you begin to think, what's next or what was my purpose ... ? It took humility, he had to come to him like a child and drop of the misconceptions and doubts. "If you are there, show me ... I am willing to open the door of my heart. But as I said, faith comes by the WORD.

Yeah, not going to take advice on "humility" from you. No offense. You see, like most atheists, I didn't just stumble into atheism. I spent years of consideration, self-examination, theological examination and soul-searching if you will.

And when I see people who are asking me to dive back into non-stop anguish and worrying because, well that's what you've got on offer, I have to say "no thanks". I came to the position I'm in because of hard work. I've thought about my lack of faith for quite some time. Your faith journey is yours, mine is mine.

You can believe as you like. However I will draw the line on critiquing science that is my area of expertise/interest unless you have put in a significant amount of effort to understand that which you are critiquing.

My argument is not against you faith, it's against you critique of the science.

 

[pitabread]

Yeah, not going to take advice on "humility" from you. No offense. You see, like most atheists, I didn't just stumble into atheism. I spent years of consideration, self-examination, theological examination and soul-searching if you will.

I think a lot of theists don't realize that non-believers can undergo the same sort of 'spiritual quest' if you will and have just as profound an experience arriving at non-belief.

Speaking for myself, I went through a time in my life when I actively sought out a religious belief. I felt like something was 'missing' and religious/spiritual belief seemed like a logical thing to fill that missing feeling. But in seeking out and learning about various different faiths and beliefs, I ultimately arrived at a state of non-belief. It was what I truly, honestly believed in my heart and I couldn't ignore that. Finally acknowledging that non-belief was an incredibly sense of relief, finally coming to terms with what I always knew but never fully grasped.

In a way, I can understand why theists believe the way they believe, especially if their own quests have led them down a different road. But it's also why I think it's a bit foolish to try to convert (or de-convert) others because spiritual or religious beliefs are so deeply personal, that I can't imagine trying to change them.