Nehemiah 13

[KCDAD]

Wasn't Ruth a Moabite? Wasn't David the descendant of Ruth? Wasn't Jesus a descendant of David and Ruth?

Isn't there a problem with this prohibition?

 

[ContentInHim]

Wasn't Ruth a Moabite? Wasn't David the descendant of Ruth? Wasn't Jesus a descendant of David and Ruth?

Isn't there a problem with this prohibition?

Yep, except that Ruth was "grafted in" and was, of course, before the prohibition. She accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and willingly left the Moabite gods. She was a woman who was redeemed by the kinsman-redeemer just as we are redeemed from sin by our kinsman-redeemer, Jesus.

I think Nehemiah's point was that the Moabite wives were leading their husbands back into idolatry which is what sent them to Babylon in the first place. Also, Levites and Kohanim marrying anything but Levite women was against Torah. So they were pretty messed up at that point. Good on Nehemiah for cleaning up!

 

[KCDAD]

So God's laws are not permanent or absolute.. but change every so often... like when the wind changes direction or something equally important...

 

[minister50]

The scriptures say:

(Isaiah 40:8) The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

(Psalms 119:89) LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

(Psalms 119:160) Thy word [is] true [from] the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments [endureth] for ever.

 

[KCDAD]

The scriptures say:

(Isaiah 40:8) The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

(Psalms 119:89) LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

(Psalms 119:160) Thy word [is] true [from] the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments [endureth] for ever.

But what do those verses have to do with the laws of Moses, or the Hebrews' History?

IS Nehemiah NOT the word of God then, because it declares a changing prohibition? (Like dietary and cleanliness laws, and divorce and "an eye for an eye", circumcision, blood sacrifices, sidelocks, etc)

 

[HypnoToad]

Despite a different nationality, following the Jewish faith means Ruth would be considered a Jew. The children of two Jews take their ancestry through the father's line - any Moabite restrictions wouldn't apply to children of Ruth and Boaz, as they would be, by Jewish law, considered Israelites, not Moabites.

 

[KCDAD]

Despite a different nationality, following the Jewish faith means Ruth would be considered a Jew. The children of two Jews take their ancestry through the father's line - any Moabite restrictions wouldn't apply to children of Ruth and Boaz, as they would be, by Jewish law, considered Israelites, not Moabites.

The Jesus wasn't Jewish... no Jewish father...

What happened to Jewish matriarchial lineage? You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish.. is that just inconvenient?

 

[HypnoToad]

The Jesus wasn't Jewish... no Jewish father...

What happened to Jewish matriarchial lineage? You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish.. is that just inconvenient?

As already stated, Ruth would have been considered a Jew. Going by just the mother only applies when the father is a non-Jew. If they are both Jewish, ancestry goes through the father.

The matriarchal lineage applies just fine to Jesus, if you want to claim His father wasn't Jewish. If a Jewish woman has a child with a non-Jewish man, the child is considered Jewish. However, Jesus would have been considered Joseph's son anyway, still making Him Jewish.

 

[CShephard53]

So God's laws are not permanent or absolute.. but change every so often... like when the wind changes direction or something equally important...

Your really like simplifying things and not providing enough evidence, don't you?
Neh 13:2 because they did not meet the sons of Israel with bread and water, but hired Balaam against them to curse them. However, our God turned the curse into a blessing.

Did you miss that one?

The Jesus wasn't Jewish... no Jewish father...

What happened to Jewish matriarchial lineage? You are Jewish if your mother was Jewish.. is that just inconvenient?

Problem is, Ruth's offspring by all cultural standards would be Jewish. Whatever happened to looking at culture?

 

[KCDAD]

jawsmetroid;40976769Your really like simplifying things and not providing enough evidence, don't you?
Neh 13:2 because they did not meet the sons of Israel with bread and water, but hired Balaam against them to curse them. However, our God turned the curse into a blessing.

How does this support any alternate view? Balaam blessed the Hebrews despite the kings insistence they be cursed. (Because a donkey spoke Hebrew to him) But because of Balak, the Moabites and Ammonites may not come into the congregation of God "FOR EVER".
One thing about ethnicity... you may move, you may learn a new language and culture... but you are always your ethnicity.

Did you miss that one?

Back at 'cha

Problem is, Ruth's offspring by all cultural standards would be Jewish. Whatever happened to looking at culture

SOURCE?

http://www.important.ca/jewish_beliefs_judaism.html
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]What Makes A Person Jewish?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]According to Jewish law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. (Recently, the American Reform and Reconstructionist movements have included those born of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers, if the children are raised practicing Judaism only.) [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]A Jew who ceases to practice Judaism is still considered a Jew, as is a Jew who does not accept Jewish principles of faith and becomes an agnostic or an atheist; so too with a Jew who converts to another religion. However, in the latter case, the person loses standing as a member of the (practicing) Jewish community and becomes known as an apostate in said community, though this might not affect his standing with non-practising Jews. In the past, family and friends would often formally mourn for the person, though this is rarely done today. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]
[/FONT][/FONT]
Post modern interpretation of Jewish law??? Shame shame.

 

[CShephard53]

How does this support any alternate view? Balaam blessed the Hebrews despite the kings insistence they be cursed. (Because a donkey spoke Hebrew to him) But because of Balak, the Moabites and Ammonites may not come into the congregation of God "FOR EVER".
One thing about ethnicity... you may move, you may learn a new language and culture... but you are always your ethnicity.



Back at 'cha


SOURCE?

http://www.important.ca/jewish_beliefs_judaism.html
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]What Makes A Person Jewish?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]According to Jewish law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. (Recently, the American Reform and Reconstructionist movements have included those born of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers, if the children are raised practicing Judaism only.) [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]A Jew who ceases to practice Judaism is still considered a Jew, as is a Jew who does not accept Jewish principles of faith and becomes an agnostic or an atheist; so too with a Jew who converts to another religion. However, in the latter case, the person loses standing as a member of the (practicing) Jewish community and becomes known as an apostate in said community, though this might not affect his standing with non-practising Jews. In the past, family and friends would often formally mourn for the person, though this is rarely done today. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]
[/FONT][/FONT]
Post modern interpretation of Jewish law??? Shame shame.

Jewish law and Jewish culture are two different things. Surely you're aware of that? And surely you're also aware that Ruth lived thousands of years ago? Why should I give you a source? You're asserting, I'm casting enough doubt to refute by making logical arguments.

 

[KCDAD]

Jewish culture when? Yesterday? How about something other than a guess about what it was like 2000 years ago?

Jewish culture 3000 years WAS the law. What a....never mind.

 

[CShephard53]

Jewish culture when? Yesterday? How about something other than a guess about what it was like 2000 years ago?

Jewish culture 3000 years WAS the law. What a....never mind.

Do you have proof that Ruth did not formally convert?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship. See What Is Judaism?
This has been established since the earliest days of Judaism. In the Torah, you will see many references to "the strangers who dwell among you" or "righteous proselytes" or "righteous strangers." These are various classifications of non-Jews who lived among Jews, adopting some or all of the beliefs and practices of Judaism without going through the formal process of conversion and becoming Jews. Once a person has converted to Judaism, he is not referred to by any special term; he is as much a Jew as anyone born Jewish.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
Furthermore from the same source:

Several people have written to me asking about King David: was he a Jew, given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew? This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.

Rth 1:16 But Ruth said, "Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.

Unless you'd like to continue this fruitless endeavor to prove that you know more than them...
http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

 

[HypnoToad]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]According to Jewish law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. (Recently, the American Reform and Reconstructionist movements have included those born of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers, if the children are raised practicing Judaism only.) [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]A Jew who ceases to practice Judaism is still considered a Jew, as is a Jew who does not accept Jewish principles of faith and becomes an agnostic or an atheist; so too with a Jew who converts to another religion. However, in the latter case, the person loses standing as a member of the (practicing) Jewish community and becomes known as an apostate in said community, though this might not affect his standing with non-practising Jews. In the past, family and friends would often formally mourn for the person, though this is rarely done today. [/FONT][/FONT]

Baffling that you persist with this false idea that Ruth was not a Jew. Her converting makes her a Jew.

Nice clothes, emperor.

 

[KCDAD]

Baffling that you persist with this false idea that Ruth was not a Jew. Her converting makes her a Jew.

Nice clothes, emperor.

Where is the proof of "formal" conversion? Is her statement "your God is my God" enough for Jewish law?

She certainly didn't convert before violating the Nehemiah code.

 

[HypnoToad]

Where is the proof of "formal" conversion? Is her statement "your God is my God" enough for Jewish law?

You have no evidence there was no conversion. Your whole argument is speculation. Her open statement of allegiance to God weighs against your speculation.

As long as she converted before marrying and having children, the "when" is irrelevant.

 

[CShephard53]

Where is the proof of "formal" conversion? Is her statement "your God is my God" enough for Jewish law?

She certainly didn't convert before violating the Nehemiah code.

Prove it. You don't have evidence that she did or didn't, and you don't see anyone telling David or anyone they couldn't be Jewish, do you?

 

[KCDAD]

The verse from Nehemiah is my proof. Show me something that refutes it. Ruth, the Moabite. Simple as that.

 

[CShephard53]

The verse from Nehemiah is my proof. Show me something that refutes it. Ruth, the Moabite. Simple as that.

That shows her nationality, not her religion. That's not proof of anything. And the Bible is against you. Do you really think that people would have considered Ruth's descendants Jews at the cost of everything? They'd be laughed off the face of the earth.

 

[ContentInHim]

So God's laws are not permanent or absolute.. but change every so often... like when the wind changes direction or something equally important...

Nope - God doesn't change and neither does his law. Ruth wasn't marrying a Levite or a priest!