Need some clarity on Mid-Acts Dispensationalism

[now faith]

A couple of days ago a family member sent me a link on a Preacher that was teaching a form of Dispensationalism.
I have somewhat understood other forms of this theology ,but frankly I was a bit shocked at the inclusive interpreting of God's Word.
1 What Jesus taught in the Gospels was proprietary to the Apostles only,and had no meaning for the New Testament Church.
2 The New Testament Church was founded with Paul and his Epistles are the only Books for Gentiles.
3 He stated on the Gifts had ceased with the completed Word,but not the Bible He believes in the completed Epistles,due to all other Books Being for the Jews only..
I found some flaws in his interpreting 1st Corinthians where He changed the meaning,to vindicate his teaching.
He turned this verse around:
1 Corinthians: 13. 12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
His dissertation of the verse was Paul was looking into a mirror,and the verse had no meaning other than Paul reflecting on his Teaching.
What is your opinion from A Baptist teaching?
My question is not about the Gifts,it is about The New Testament being divided between Jew and Gentile.
In other threads members here have been helpful to me,namely OZ and Deacon but any help understanding from anyone I would be thankful for.
God Bless

 

[DeaconDean]

A couple of days ago a family member sent me a link on a Preacher that was teaching a form of Dispensationalism.
I have somewhat understood other forms of this theology ,but frankly I was a bit shocked at the inclusive interpreting of God's Word.
1 What Jesus taught in the Gospels was proprietary to the Apostles only,and had no meaning for the New Testament Church.
2 The New Testament Church was founded with Paul and his Epistles are the only Books for Gentiles.
3 He stated on the Gifts had ceased with the completed Word,but not the Bible He believes in the completed Epistles,due to all other Books Being for the Jews only..
I found some flaws in his interpreting 1st Corinthians where He changed the meaning,to vindicate his teaching.
He turned this verse around:
1 Corinthians: 13. 12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
His dissertation of the verse was Paul was looking into a mirror,and the verse had no meaning other than Paul reflecting on his Teaching.
What is your opinion from A Baptist teaching?
My question is not about the Gifts,it is about The New Testament being divided between Jew and Gentile.
In other threads members here have been helpful to me,namely OZ and Deacon but any help understanding from anyone I would be thankful for.
God Bless

I'm kinda busy right now. as I'm at work. But I shall give you an answer shortly.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[now faith]

I'm kinda busy right now. as I'm at work. But I shall give you an answer shortly.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thank you

 

[DeaconDean]

Brother,

To be honest, in my personal life, I have only heard one such group make such claims.

You did not state what "Faith Group" your family member belongs to.

So with that said, if I am out of the way, please forgive me.

The only group I've personally heard make such claims was the Restoration Church (Campbellites), or the Church of Christ (Disciples of Christ). (Not to be confused with the Church of God; Pentecostalism)

"1 What Jesus taught in the Gospels was proprietary to the Apostles only,and had no meaning for the New Testament Church."

I have heard this exact same thing come out of the mouths of two Restoration Church pastors. They went so far as to say that when Christ said: When he is come, he will lead you to all truth" (Loosely of John 16:13). Since Jesus was not engaged with any crowds, not teaching publicly, He was addressing only the disciples here, this verse was meant only for them. We cannot use this verse to speak of the Holy Spirit guiding us (born-again Christians). One word comes to mind here...BULL!

"2 The New Testament Church was founded with Paul and his Epistles are the only Books for Gentiles."

I have heard something similar in seminary classes. That the New Testament did not start until after the book of Acts. And, that since Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, only his epistles are relevant to Gentile Christians.

I personally can think of one section from the Gospels that disqualifies that. In John 4: 1-42, Jesus not only talked to a Samaritan woman at the well, but He also used her to Evangelize. Here the Gospel is taken to a Gentile prior to the New Testament church.

"3 He stated on the Gifts had ceased with the completed Word, but not the Bible He believes in the completed Epistles, due to all other Books Being for the Jews only.."

The above should not come as a surprise as you and I both have seen in the thread on "Speaking in tongues."

One of the best known Televangelists today is John Hagee. I've even heard him preach that chapters 9-11 of Romans is addressed specifically to the Jews.

I wonder how he would interpret what Paul said in Gal. 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

"I found some flaws in his interpreting 1st Corinthians where He changed the meaning, to vindicate his teaching.

He turned this verse around:

1 Corinthians: 13. 12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

His dissertation of the verse was Paul was looking into a mirror, and the verse had no meaning other than Paul reflecting on his Teaching.

What is your opinion from A Baptist teaching?"

It is well known that what truths we have now are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, I'm sure both Oz and you would agree with me on that point. Personally, what I believe is Paul is speaking of an analogy. We see through a glass darkly relates to our current dispensation (for lack of a better word). But when Jesus is revealed, "but then face to face". "now I know in part" still refers to this current age, but when Jesus is revealed, we'll no longer know in part, nor see though a glass darkly because we'll be in the presence of truth. We'll no longer need the Holy Spirit because we'll see Jesus just as He is and we'll be just as He is. We will finally be perfect as He is perfect.

Like I said, I have heard similar things from two Church of Christ pastors.

God Bless

 

[now faith]

Brother,

To be honest, in my personal life, I have only heard one such group make such claims.

You did not state what "Faith Group" your family member belongs to.

So with that said, if I am out of the way, please forgive me.

The only group I've personally heard make such claims was the Restoration Church (Campbellites), or the Church of Christ (Disciples of Christ). (Not to be confused with the Church of God; Pentecostalism)

"1 What Jesus taught in the Gospels was proprietary to the Apostles only,and had no meaning for the New Testament Church."

I have heard this exact same thing come out of the mouths of two Restoration Church pastors. They went so far as to say that when Christ said: When he is come, he will lead you to all truth" (Loosely of John 16:13). Since Jesus was not engaged with any crowds, not teaching publicly, He was addressing only the disciples here, this verse was meant only for them. We cannot use this verse to speak of the Holy Spirit guiding us (born-again Christians). One word comes to mind here...BULL!

"2 The New Testament Church was founded with Paul and his Epistles are the only Books for Gentiles."

I have heard something similar in seminary classes. That the New Testament did not start until after the book of Acts. And, that since Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, only his epistles are relevant to Gentile Christians.

I personally can think of one section from the Gospels that disqualifies that. In John 4: 1-42, Jesus not only talked to a Samaritan woman at the well, but He also used her to Evangelize. Here the Gospel is taken to a Gentile prior to the New Testament church.

"3 He stated on the Gifts had ceased with the completed Word, but not the Bible He believes in the completed Epistles, due to all other Books Being for the Jews only.."

The above should not come as a surprise as you and I both have seen in the thread on "Speaking in tongues."

One of the best known Televangelists today is John Hagee. I've even heard him preach that chapters 9-11 of Romans is addressed specifically to the Jews.

I wonder how he would interpret what Paul said in Gal. 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

"I found some flaws in his interpreting 1st Corinthians where He changed the meaning, to vindicate his teaching.

He turned this verse around:

1 Corinthians: 13. 12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

His dissertation of the verse was Paul was looking into a mirror, and the verse had no meaning other than Paul reflecting on his Teaching.

What is your opinion from A Baptist teaching?"

It is well known that what truths we have now are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit, I'm sure both Oz and you would agree with me on that point. Personally, what I believe is Paul is speaking of an analogy. We see through a glass darkly relates to our current dispensation (for lack of a better word). But when Jesus is revealed, "but then face to face". "now I know in part" still refers to this current age, but when Jesus is revealed, we'll no longer know in part, nor see though a glass darkly because we'll be in the presence of truth. We'll no longer need the Holy Spirit because we'll see Jesus just as He is and we'll be just as He is. We will finally be perfect as He is perfect.

Like I said, I have heard similar things from two Church of Christ pastors.

God Bless

I am thankful for your reply.
My family member attends a Baptist Church.
The Preacher is a Baptist on YouTube that my family member was saying this teaching is what he has believed all along.
John Hagee has gone very strong with his teaching on Hebrew signs and dispensation, I support Israel but I understand that belief in Christ comes above all else.
I interpret the seeing through a glass darkly as you do.
I cannot say face to face is a mirror,it is Christ.
Why would Paul use a analogy of a glass to ultimately mean a mirror?
I believe personally this is a dangerous teaching,recently we observed the opposite about Paul being not a Apostle.
If you like I would PM you a link to this Preacher.
He uses the term rightly dividing the Word,and in some ways would sound good.
He praises God's Word, but does divide it
God Bless

 

[66/40]

I found some flaws in his interpreting 1st Corinthians where He changed the meaning,to vindicate his teaching.
He turned this verse around:

Stop right there. YOU found "some flaws" with Paul's writing???? The only flaw with your logic is that you failed to recognize that Paul didn't write any flaws; rather your flaw is in understanding the scriptures. There are zero flaws in the holy bible. None.

Hebrews 4:12 (ESV)
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Holy Scripture is perfect.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Job 38:2 (NIV)
“Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?

1 Corinthians 2:5 (NIV)
so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power.

1 John 5:13 (NIV)
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I could go on and on. Paul's writings are NOT flawed.

 

[66/40]

John Hagee is a CHARLATAN in all CAPS!!! He's probably one of the WORST televangelists on the air! He preaches an absolute false doctrine and is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He's right there with Osteen, Meyer and Benny Hinn. He's Completely wreckless when teaching the Bible. At times, I have a hard time discerning which one I should the absolute worse false teacher. It's a between Hagee and Kenneth Copeland.

Look at Hagee's bogus "blood moon" cr@p he was spewing about two years ago. The blood moons came and went uneventfully. That's just one example. Everything he's ever predicted has been totally bogus and down right heresy.

 

[now faith]

John Hagee is a CHARLATAN in all CAPS!!! He's probably one of the WORST televangelists on the air! He preaches an absolute false doctrine and is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He's right there with Osteen, Meyer and Benny Hinn. He's Completely wreckless when teaching the Bible. At times, I have a hard time discerning which one I should the absolute worse false teacher. It's a between Hagee and Kenneth Copeland.

Look at Hagee's bogus "blood moon" cr@p he was spewing about two years ago. The blood moons came and went uneventfully. That's just one example. Everything he's ever predicted has been totally bogus and down right heresy.

No I was speaking of a Preacher on you tube my family member is following.
There is a misunderstanding about who is saying what.

 

[DeaconDean]

John Hagee is a CHARLATAN in all CAPS!!! He's probably one of the WORST televangelists on the air! He preaches an absolute false doctrine and is a wolf in sheeps clothing. He's right there with Osteen, Meyer and Benny Hinn. He's Completely wreckless when teaching the Bible. At times, I have a hard time discerning which one I should the absolute worse false teacher. It's a between Hagee and Kenneth Copeland.

Look at Hagee's bogus "blood moon" cr@p he was spewing about two years ago. The blood moons came and went uneventfully. That's just one example. Everything he's ever predicted has been totally bogus and down right heresy.

Just a friendly warning.

There are a lot of people who like and listen to what John Hagee preaches. You may consider him to be "a wolf in sheeps clothing", but keep that opinion to yourself.

I know from experience. I hold the same opinion of Charles G. Finney.

What I'm saying is, choose your words wisely.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[66/40]

No I was speaking of a Preacher on you tube my family member is following.
There is a misunderstanding about who is saying what.

OK, if I misunderstood what or whom you were referencing, my apologies.

 

[66/40]

Just a friendly warning.

There are a lot of people who like and listen to what John Hagee preaches. You may consider him to be "a wolf in sheeps clothing", but keep that opinion to yourself.

I know from experience. I hold the same opinion of Charles G. Finney.

What I'm saying is, choose your words wisely.

God Bless

Till all are one.

While I agree with you and also thank you for the message, know that we are also called to "out" the heretics that preach a false gospel. It's one thing to disagree with secondary issues in christian circles, however preaching false doctrine is down right blasphemy.


Matthew 7:21 (NASB)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Condemning or calling out the false teachers is what Jesus did in Matthew 23. He was not polite about it either. In fact, Jesus calls them "sons of hell" (v.15). He goes on to call them "fools and blind!" (v.17). In (v.28) he says "...outwardly you appear righteous, but inside you're full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." Confronting false teachers is the work of Christ. Warning about false teachers is the work of Christ and should be the work of every believer. Merely sitting quiet and being tolerant of a false teacher is being unloving and doesn't defend the Christian faith. We can't be polite when people's eternal souls are at stake."
-John MacArthur

 

[now faith]

While I agree with you and also thank you for the message, know that we are also called to "out" the heretics that preach a false gospel. It's one thing to disagree with secondary issues in christian circles, however preaching false doctrine is down right blasphemy.


Matthew 7:21 (NASB)
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Condemning or calling out the false teachers is what Jesus did in Matthew 23. He was not polite about it either. In fact, Jesus calls them "sons of hell" (v.15). He goes on to call them "fools and blind!" (v.17). In (v.28) he says "...outwardly you appear righteous, but inside you're full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." Confronting false teachers is the work of Christ. Warning about false teachers is the work of Christ and should be the work of every believer. Merely sitting quiet and being tolerant of a false teacher is being unloving and doesn't defend the Christian faith. We can't be polite when people's eternal souls are

 

[66/40]

As well Jesus raised the dead,can you do that?

You sent me the above question, which I received in an email notification. Simple answer: No because unlike Paul, Jesus didn't give the rest of us the authority to raise the dead.

So what's your point with that question? It's not even germane to the topic at hand. I believe you're a little confused.

 

[now faith]

You sent me the above question, which I received in an email notification. Simple answer: No because unlike Paul, Jesus didn't give the rest of us the authority to raise the dead.

So what's your point with that question? It's not even germane to the topic at hand. I believe you're a little confused.

No I posted a reply to your post,thought about it and tried to delete it
I don't have your email address and honestly don't know why or how it was sent.
My apologies

 

[66/40]

No I posted a reply to your post,thought about it and tried to delete it
I don't have your email address and honestly don't know why or how it was sent.
My apologies

No worries. Thanks.

 

[DeaconDean]

No because unlike Paul, Jesus didn't give the rest of us the authority to raise the dead.

Sorry disagree with you but...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." -Jn. 14:12 (KJV)

Are we not told that if had the faith the size of a mustard seed we could command the mountains to move and they would move?

It's also strange that even though Jesus said it, I don't read in the scriptures where any of the disciples/Apostles moved mountains.

And in Mk. 11:22, (Have faith in God) a correct rendering from the Greek would be:

"have the faith of God".

In other words, we are commanded to have the same faith as God.

Provided it's God's will, and provided we have the faith of God, we could raise the dead.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[66/40]

Sorry disagree with you but...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." -Jn. 14:12 (KJV)

Are we not told that if had the faith the size of a mustard seed we could command the mountains to move and they would move?

It's also strange that even though Jesus said it, I don't read in the scriptures where any of the disciples/Apostles moved mountains.

And in Mk. 11:22, (Have faith in God) a correct rendering from the Greek would be:

"have the faith of God".

In other words, we are commanded to have the same faith as God.

Provided it's God's will, and provided we have the faith of God, we could raise the dead.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No, we humans can't raise the dead, unless God wanted us to, which He doesn't. Because if we could raise the dead, so could Satan hypothetically. That would put sinful man as well as Satan, on par with God as Deity. Only Jesus conquers death, not sinful man. To suggest otherwise is heretical.

Man literally and physically "Moving mountains" because we have "so much" faith in God is also preposterous. First off, to "move mountains" is allegory, plain and simple. If I say that it's "raining cats and dogs," does that mean literally cats and dogs are falling from the sky? Of course not. Neither does "moving mountains" mean anything but a metaphoric suggestion to a hurculean task at best.

Telling someone that they only need "so much faith" in order to "move mountains," or cure their incurable disease, is like the "word of faith" movement people such as Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Joyce Myer and the likes. You're statement suggests that you support the "word of faith" movement and that belief is NOT biblical.

 

[DeaconDean]

Evvidently, you did not read where I said:

"Provided it's God's will, and provided we have the faith of God, we could raise the dead."

No, we humans can't raise the dead, unless God wanted us to, which He doesn't. Because if we could raise the dead, so could Satan hypothetically. That would put sinful man as well as Satan, on par with God as Deity. Only Jesus conquers death, not sinful man. To suggest otherwise is heretical.

So you don't believe what the bible says in other words.

Only Jesus conquers death

Technically, your wrong again. Ever heard of a person in scripture named "Lazarus"?

Wasn't he the first to come back from the dead?

And technically, who was it that caused Jesus to arise from the dead?

Hint: read Rom. 6:4.

Man literally and physically "Moving mountains" because we have "so much" faith in God is also preposterous. First off, to "move mountains" is allegory, plain and simple. If I say that it's "raining cats and dogs," does that mean literally cats and dogs are falling from the sky? Of course not. Neither does "moving mountains" mean anything but a metaphoric suggestion to a hurculean task at best.

Again, you don't believe the words of Jesus Himself?

And once again, from the Greek we get "have the faith of God".

Telling someone that they only need "so much faith" in order to "move mountains," or cure their incurable disease, is like the "word of faith" movement people such as Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Joyce Myer and the likes. You're statement suggests that you support the "word of faith" movement and that belief is NOT biblical.

Didn't Peter heal the sick? (cf. Acts 5:15)

Didn't Paul raise the dead? (cf. Acts 20:7-12)

There is a big difference in what I have said verse what Copeland, Hinn, Meyer, Olsteen have said.

I quote scripture, as shown above.

Copeland preaches:

"He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived ... Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him ... [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived ... In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus ... [in] the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life ... He was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles ... Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell ... Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ... !"

"The Price of it All," Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4

Can you show me any of that in scripture?

Everything I have said can be shown in scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[GeorgeJ]

Copeland preaches:
<snip>
"The Price of it All," Believer’s Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4

Can you show me any of that in scripture?

Nope.
Sounds like it would might make a good sci-fi movie, though....

 

[DeaconDean]

Nope.
Sounds like it would might make a good sci-fi movie, though....

Seriously though, we are taught that what Jesus did, we would do better.

Paul writes about the gifts of the spirit, healing being one of them.

"There are actually three biblical lists of the “gifts of the Spirit,” also known as spiritual gifts. The three main passages describing the spiritual gifts are Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11; and 1 Corinthians 12:28. The spiritual gifts identified in Romans 12 are prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy. The list in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 includes the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues. The list in 1 Corinthians 12:28 includes healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Source

And when I point out what scripture says, I am accused of:

That would put sinful man as well as Satan, on par with God as Deity.

I wonder what that member would say if I quote Jesus when He rebuked the Jews saying:

"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" -Jn. 10:34 (KJV)

Scripture says we could do these things and even better ones if we only had faith the size of a mustard seed.

Sadly, we do not.

God Bless

Till all are one.