Need help with Scripture

onceEMT · Dec 17, 2021

I just looked at Romans 9:22-24. Does it suggest there are people reserved for destruction?

Saucy · Dec 17, 2021

It's essentially saying that some people receive God's wrath and some people seem to be spared, but that even with those who deserve it, He is longsuffering and shows His mercy.

d taylor · Dec 17, 2021

There were people God used to display His temporal wrath, example pharaoh.

atpollard · Dec 17, 2021

Yup.
The theme starts a little earlier.

The end of Romans 1 suggests that God gives the people reserved for destruction the freedom to follow their evil hearts desires … “God gave them over to”.

By Romans 3:10 NOBODY is righteous and EVERYBODY has turned from God and towards sin.

So by Romans 9, the real question is “who are the vessels of mercy” and “how do they come to exist at all”?

Daniel Marsh · Dec 17, 2021

very interesting

sandman · Dec 17, 2021

Also keep in mind that Rom 9 through 11 is directed to Israel …and starting at 11:13 it incorporates the Gentiles into the convo.

FutureAndAHope · Dec 17, 2021

The passage says God "endured with much longsuffering", the vessels of wrath. Long-suffering is showing mercy. The passage overall is talking about God's plan, God has overarching plans that make up his will. The creation of Israel was one of those plans. The selection of Jacob over Esau was another.

In talking about the Pharoah who was a vessel of wrath, we see the statement, "but what if God ... endured with much long-suffering ... (Pharoah the vessel of wrath). This suggests that God uses people who have rejected His long-suffering and rises them up for wrathful purposes.

I believe God has a positive overarching plan for each of us, but if we do not respond in obedience we open ourselves up to less than perfect plans, some to plans of wrath.

King David is an example of this, I have cut and pasted from my website where I discuss the overarching plan of God. Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry

We have shown previously that God has two pathways for man, if they are willing and obedient a pathway that is good and ends in life, if they sin and harden their face a pathway that ends in death.

We will go to King David. In the Psalms he wrote:

Psa 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see of Jeremiah:

Jer 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending upon what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David as an example sinned killing a man, and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

2Sa 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things, a) God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more, b) God said “Because you wouldn't obey me” a curse came into his life, c) God saying “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” (KJV), God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, but if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions in response to God and other events.

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Jer 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.

Gregorikos · Dec 17, 2021

The phrase “objects of his wrath” refers to those who are on the path that leads to eternal destruction. People become objects of wrath by their own sinful acts and rebellion against God, as Paul stated earlier: “but because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath” (2:5). However, the main focus of this passage is still God’s mercy. “Objects of his wrath” (i.e., those who are opposed to God) may still repent (i.e., admit and turn from their own rebellious way), turn to God and receive his mercy. The phrase “objects of his mercy” refers to those, both Jew and Gentile, who trust and follow Jesus Christ (vv. 24-33). (Fire Study Bible)

HTacianas · Dec 17, 2021

Look at the very beginning of it which is "What if..". Okay. What if? What if God did that? But then again, what if He didn't. It is a hypothetical not meant to illustrate the nature of God, but to illustrate the sovereignty of God. If God chose to do that -or anything else- it is His prerogative to do it. But it doesn't mean that He did.

Some people erroneously read it as a statement rather than a question and have even based their entire theology and ideas about salvation on it. But as you can see, a plain reading of it doesn't support that idea.

Peter J Barban · Dec 18, 2021

Certainly, Judas was.

"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." John 17:12

klutedavid · Dec 18, 2021

That's exactly what those verses state.

God is love, so you can be guaranteed that whatever God does with these folk. Is perfectly fair and thoroughly deserved. I guess when you boil it down, anyone who rejects the Christ. Is rejecting eternal life and eternal love. So logically, they have made their choice for hatred and death.

atpollard · Dec 18, 2021

[context - the whole paragraph]

[Romans 9:19-26 NASB95]
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

All of Romans seems to point towards the fact that Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat (righteousness is found through faith in Christ and only condemnation is found in the Law.)

atpollard · Dec 18, 2021

[Romans 9:22 KJV] 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted [G2675] to destruction:

“fitted” = Strong’s G2675 = κατηρτισμένα

Strong’s G2675
καταρτίζω katartízō, kat-ar-tid'-zo; from G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust

Thayer’s G2675
b. to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust: τούς αἰῶνας, the worlds, passive Hebrews 11:3 (so, for הֵכִין, ἥλιον, Psalm 73:16 (Ps. 74:16); σελήνην, Psalm 88:38 (Ps. 89:38)); σκεύη κατηρτισμένη εἰς ἀπώλειαν, of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction (but see Meyer (edited by Weiss) in the place cited), Romans 9:22 (πλοῖα, Polybius 5, 46, 10, and the like); of the mind: κατηρτισμένος ὡς etc. so instructed, equipped, as etc. (cf. Buttmann, 311 (267); but others take κατηρτισμένος as a circumstantial participle "when perfected shall be as (not 'above') his master" (see Meyer, in the place cited); on this view the passage may be referred to the next entry), Luke 6:40; middle to fit or frame for oneself, prepare: αἶνον, Matthew 21:16 (from Psalm 8:3; the Sept. for יָסַד); σῶμα, Hebrews 10:5.

TedT · Dec 18, 2021

Oh yes...these are the people condemned already for unbelief, John 3:18, an unbelief based upon the blasphemy that YHWH is a liar and a false god, the unforgivable sin.

onceEMT · Dec 18, 2021

onceEMT · Dec 18, 2021

Thank you for sharing with me. After 28 years of reading the Word, I still have a lot to learn.

Davy · Dec 25, 2021

That is for this present world. We still do not know who all will perish in the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20, EXCEPT for Satan and his angels.

No one born in the flesh to date has been judged and sentenced to perish yet, for that Judgment does not happen until after Christ's future return, and then a thousand years after He has reigned on earth with His elect, per Revelation 20.

Only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire at the "second death". This is why one of Satan's titles is Apollyon from the Greek word that means 'perdition'. Satan is the authentic 'son of perdition'.

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