Need help refuting purgatory

[brian231]

I'm rather new to dispensationalism and need help with a proper dispensational response to a catholic who is hasseling me. I said I don't believe in purgatory because it's not in the Bible and I was asked the following: May I ask...since we are prone to sin here on earth, and not prone to sin in heaven...how do you suppose we are transformed after death?

I have to admit I've never really given that any thought and have no idea how to properly respond. Can anyone help me out?

 

[Idea]

how do you suppose we are transformed after death?

I'm not Catholic - but do believe that "transformation" can happen in this life...

Do you not believe in hell? It is in the bible... My parents did not believe in it - I agree, hell does not make God out to be a very loving person...

To me - hell has to do with who we are, rather than who God is....

 

[marke]

I'm rather new to dispensationalism and need help with a proper dispensational response to a catholic who is hasseling me. I said I don't believe in purgatory because it's not in the Bible and I was asked the following: May I ask...since we are prone to sin here on earth, and not prone to sin in heaven...how do you suppose we are transformed after death?

I have to admit I've never really given that any thought and have no idea how to properly respond. Can anyone help me out?

Does it really matter?

Dispensationalism isn't in the bible either. Dispensationalism is something made up by a man. Why do you believe in dispensationalism that's not in the bible and want to disprove this persons belief? Aren't we all supposed to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?

Let them believe what they want and I guarantee you'll both know the answer in the end.

For you however, the truth is found in the New Testament. Not in some ideas forwarded by a man.

Read the New Testament. That is your opportunity for salvation of your soul. Not dispensationalism. Following the teachings of Jesus the Christ is the way to save your soul, not the teachings of dispensationalism.

Many are called, but few are chosen. Discover what it takes to be among the chosen in the New Testament.

God bless.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I'm rather new to dispensationalism and need help with a proper dispensational response to a catholic who is hasseling me. I said I don't believe in purgatory because it's not in the Bible and I was asked the following: May I ask...since we are prone to sin here on earth, and not prone to sin in heaven...how do you suppose we are transformed after death?

I have to admit I've never really given that any thought and have no idea how to properly respond. Can anyone help me out?

We who are born again in Christ the Living Spirit are seated with Him already, in the heavenlies, being One in His One Living Spirit by the adoption, and we do not see death ever again once we are born again and so are never separated from the Father ever again because we are accepted in the Beloved Son, by the Father.

Jesus ascended and we are already ascended in Spirit in Him and when we depart the Adam flesh body of death we are immediately with Him in His presense without the veil of Adam flesh..
When He resurrects our bodies from the dust of this creation He has promised immediate translation of them into the body of New Man creation made in His image, which is the body of adoption.
The body of Adoption is the immortal one, and we already have been joined to the Spirit of it and it is guaranteed by our Firstborn.

Frankly, your friend is just using human reasonings which have no basis in Scripture.
Just read the Gospel of Christ and His promises. It's all there.

 

[brian231]

I wish I could've got some help but here's the response I came up with:

First off, it doesn’t matter what I think. It doesn’t matter what father so and so thinks, it doesn’t matter what reverend so and so thinks, it doesn’t matter what Martin Luther thought, or what John Calvin thought, or what some theologian thinks. What matters is what your Bible says.

1 COR 15:44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 COR 15:49: And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 COR 15:50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1COR 15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 COR 15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 COR 15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Philippians 3:20: For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philippians 3:21: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
-From this we learn that we are given a new spiritual body and that the change is instantaneous.

Luke 16:19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luke 16: 20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luke 16:22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And….
Luke 23:39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luke 23:40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luke 23:41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luke 23: 42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
-From these two examples we learn that Lazarus and the thief on the cross went to heaven and there is absolutely no mention that they made some sort of pit stop to go through a purification process before they got there. We also learn from the rich man that hell is a very real place for the unbeliever.

Also:
Romans 6:9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Romans 6:10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Romans 6:11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1 COR 6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 COR 6:10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 COR 6:11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Colossians 2:13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2 COR 5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
-It’s pretty clear that our sins are forgiven. Purgatory is one of the most insidious teachings of the catholic church, since it denies the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of His blood and righteousness for the purification of our souls.

Let’s have a look at 2 Maccabees:
2 Macc 12:38 So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
2 MACC 12:39 And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.
2 MACC 12:40 Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
2 MACC 12:41 All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
2 MACC 12:42 Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.
2 MACC 12:43 And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
2 MACC 12:44 For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
2 MACC 12:45 And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
-These slain soldiers are unfortunately in hell. They rejected God and worshipped idols. You can pray for them and make all the sacrifices you want but it won’t change a thing. No sign of purgatory here either.

 

[Biblewriter]

I have been a student of the Bible for many years, and think your answer is a very good one.

Do not let anyone deceive you into thinking that anything that you do or that happens to you can change you. That change can only come about through God's power, and it comes when you give up on yourself and put your entire trust in the finished work Jesus did on the cross.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'm rather new to dispensationalism and need help with a proper dispensational response to a catholic who is hasseling me. I said I don't believe in purgatory because it's not in the Bible and I was asked the following: May I ask...since we are prone to sin here on earth, and not prone to sin in heaven...how do you suppose we are transformed after death?

I have to admit I've never really given that any thought and have no idea how to properly respond. Can anyone help me out?

First, what does dispenationalism have to do with refuting purgatory, secondly, I hope you give what was said a long, thoughtful and prayerful look.

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

how do you suppose we are transformed after death?

I'm not Catholic - but do believe that "transformation" can happen in this life...

Do you not believe in hell? It is in the bible... My parents did not believe in it - I agree, hell does not make God out to be a very loving person...

To me - hell has to do with who we are, rather than who God is....

I agree. Yet, there are those who leave this life without being fully purified, and nothing impure can enter heaven.

So, do they go to hell simply because they struggled with a sin they weren't totally able to overcome before death?

Or does God provide a way for the completion of their purification from such sin so they may enter His presence?

How does God remove the last impurities from a soul so that soul can stand before Him?

In the scriptures, it speaks of the fire that will test our deeds . . . . . what is not eternal will burn up - our sins not yet fully purified from our souls will be included here.

The scriptures say that such a one could find all he built burned up, but yet he himself will be saved as through fire . . .

1 Corinthians 3:15
NASB: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NASB ©1995)
GWT: If his work is burned up, he will suffer the loss. However, he will be saved, though it will be like going through a fire. (GOD'S WORD®)
KJV: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
ASV: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.
​

That's the Catholic concept of Purgatory, right there in scripture.

.

 

[Cajaquarius]

1 COR 15:44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 COR 15:49: And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 COR 15:50: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1COR 15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 COR 15:52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 COR 15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Philippians 3:20: For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philippians 3:21: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
-From this we learn that we are given a new spiritual body and that the change is instantaneous.

1 Corinthians 3:15

NASB: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NASB ©1995)​

GWT: If his work is burned up, he will suffer the loss. However, he will be saved, though it will be like going through a fire. (GOD'S WORD®)​

KJV: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

ASV: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.​

​

​

Perhaps it is just me but I fail to see any difference in either of these assertions. Is it possible that the whole issue over purgatory could be as simple as an issue with terminology used to describe it? When I had the concept of purgatory explained to me it was explained as a process, not a place, and seems to fit more for the whole loving and divine understanding of God.

Because what I am getting from both of these is that the old will be discarded from the new one way or another. Maybe you are both right.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I'm rather new to dispensationalism and need help with a proper dispensational response to a catholic who is hasseling me. I said I don't believe in purgatory because it's not in the Bible and I was asked the following: May I ask...since we are prone to sin here on earth, and not prone to sin in heaven...how do you suppose we are transformed after death?

I have to admit I've never really given that any thought and have no idea how to properly respond. Can anyone help me out?

2 cor 5:8

 

[Ben12]

Fire (Greek) “pur” were we get out English words; “pure, purify, purge and purgatory.

I do not believe in hell for the word hell is not in the original language of scripture; nor do I believe in the Catholic word purgatory. With this being said I do believe that is what the Lake of Fire is all about.

Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.

Now the word we really need to look for is the word eternal, everlasting, forever; here is the key words tat condemns so many. I believe these words were added by the translators and should be simply mean age or ages.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

2 cor 5:8

heb 10:17-19

 

[Biblewriter]

I agree. Yet, there are those who leave this life without being fully purified, and nothing impure can enter heaven.

So, do they go to hell simply because they struggled with a sin they weren't totally able to overcome before death?

Or does God provide a way for the completion of their purification from such sin so they may enter His presence?

How does God remove the last impurities from a soul so that soul can stand before Him?

In the scriptures, it speaks of the fire that will test our deeds . . . . . what is not eternal will burn up - our sins not yet fully purified from our souls will be included here.

The scriptures say that such a one could find all he built burned up, but yet he himself will be saved as through fire . . .

1 Corinthians 3:15
NASB: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (NASB ©1995)
GWT: If his work is burned up, he will suffer the loss. However, he will be saved, though it will be like going through a fire. (GOD'S WORD®)
KJV: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
ASV: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.
​

That's the Catholic concept of Purgatory, right there in scripture.

.

I am amazed that someone who so systematically argues that the Bible does not really mean what it says would resort to such an obvious artifice.

The basic concept of purgatory is that an individual will be purified by suffering. The scriptures cited here speak of an individual's works (not himself or herself) being tested by fire.

The concept of purgatory itself is found nowhere in the holy scriptures, but it is contrary to many of them.

First, no scripture anywhere even suggests that suffering on our part will purify us. That is an extra-Biblical concept.

Second, the scriptures very clearly teach that the blood of Christ cleanses us. This is the only thing the Bible even even hints can cleanse sin.

Third, the Bible just as clearly teaches that this same blood is the only thing that can cleanse sin.

But the problem with the doctrine of purgatory is not only that it is missing from scripture and contrary to scripture, it is that it minimizes the value of the sacred blood of Christ, falsely substituting a substitute which scripture plainly teaches can never take away sin.

But I agree with TLF that this discussion does not belong in the dispensationalism forum. I suggest that it be moved to toe soterology forum, where it properly belongs.