Need a Calvinist answer

[cfmember]

It’s time to get back to the question.... For what REASON did God (as Calvinism claims) predestine some to heaven and others to hell before any were born? Only heymikey80 has come close to a believable (reasonable) answer, when he almost said God’s judgment of men was according to his foreknowledge of whether men would be believers or unbelievers.

The whole historical controversy over Calvinism is based in its own idea of double-predestination, that no man was judged by God before he was decreed to heaven or hell. That idea is of course repugnant to people who believe in the Justice in Judgment the Bible teaches, that every man should be given a hearing by a Judge before a verdict is rendered.

Does any Calvinist here know "how" God actually does judge men? (Hint: the Bible tells us)

 

[AndOne]

Does any Calvinist here know "how" God actually does judge men? (Hint: the Bible tells us)

Here is how God does judge ALL men:

Romans 3:10-18

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

 

[cfmember]

Behe's Boy, that's a good passage, but doesn't answer "how" God judges men to heaven or hell.

Praise be to God, that was a judgment made of all men...before the Cross, where God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...." So by the grace of God no man is condemned under "the law of works" (keeping the Law, which no man but Jesus could do), but under "the law of faith" (keeping the truth). (Rom 3:19-27) (Paul...I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me...." 2 Tim 4:7,8

Is man then judged by Jesus according to "the law of faith", where we see believers going to heaven, and unbelievers not, putting the responsibility on man, where it belongs?

But again, can anyone answer...."How" Jesus judges men? (Hint: He tells us)



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[AndOne]

Behe's Boy, that's a good passage, but doesn't answer "how" God judges men to heaven or hell.

Praise be to God, that was a judgment made of all men...before the Cross, where God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...." So by the grace of God no man is condemned under "the law of works" (keeping the Law, which no man but Jesus could do), but under "the law of faith" (keeping the truth). (Rom 3:19-27) (Paul...I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me...." 2 Tim 4:7,8

Is man then judged by Jesus according to "the law of faith", where we see believers going to heaven, and unbelievers not, putting the responsibility on man, where it belongs?

But again, can anyone answer...."How" Jesus judges men? (Hint: He tells us)



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I think I see what you are getting at....

If you are refering to faith as being a qualifier to heaven - you will get no argument from me on that.

However - I do not believe that it is possible for anyone to "have faith" until God makes him able as is alluded to in Titus 3:5-7.

There is a bit of a mystery in all of this. All those who reject Christ will be judged - hence man has culpability in this - there is human responsibility.

The problem is that man through the fall - is somehow incapable of receiving Christ until God makes him able. That is where the GIFT of faith comes in.

 

[cfmember]

Behe's Boy, Your answer still begs the question, and is circular reasoning. If man is responsible to believe in order to be saved, but he can't unless he was chosen, then God demands the impossible, which isn't fair. On the other hand, if he's chosen, and that's why he believes (because God makes him believe), that's not fair either, because he is fallen as well as all others (so why is he treated unequally when he's equally fallen?). Remember....Jesus took the Fall for all. "....we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead...." (2 Cor 5:14,15) This makes them all personally responsible for their own salvation or condemnation.


This goes to the main objection to Calvinism, that if its teachings are true, then the real God is an unjust (unfair) God toward humanity, Do we not all have a conscience, as well as the teaching of Scripture, that reveals what is just and unjust, what is justice and injustice? Calvinism doesn't seem to have a conscience where justice and judgment are concerned, which makes its God appear evil, (without a conscience). The same justice a Calvinist would demand of men toward men in America doesn't fly in his Calvinist system of thought.


And as for "the gift of faith", all men get that too (The Word of God), otherwise none could reject it. How can a man reject the truth if he's never been given it? Now....as for Calvinism's teaching that God 'makes' the Calivnist believe, if that were true, we wouldn't find Calvinism contradicting him.

 

[AndOne]

This goes to the main objection to Calvinism, that if its teachings are true, then the real God is an unjust (unfair) God toward humanity,

Paul's reply to this objection:

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Romans 9:14-21

 

[cfmember]

In speaking of both the Jews and the Gentiles, God tells us he has concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:32) I'm aware that Calvinism doesn't like that idea (but Mr. Calvin wasn't noted for his mercy). God will have mercy on all whether men like it or not.

Surely you are not defending injustice, are you? "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Does 'common use' in this verse mean damnation to you, like 'the elder serving the younger' means the condemnation of Esau, to Calvinism?

 

[AndOne]

In speaking of both the Jews and the Gentiles, God tells us he has concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:32) I'm aware that Calvinism doesn't like that idea (but Mr. Calvin wasn't noted for his mercy). God will have mercy on all whether men like it or not.

Surely you are not defending injustice, are you? "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Does 'common use' in this verse mean damnation to you, like 'the elder serving the younger' means the condemnation of Esau, to Calvinism?

Your argument isn't with me or Calvin - but with scripture. Your objection isn't new - and it has been answered.

Problem is - you don't like the answer. I don't know what else to do - but I will not add to scripture.

 

[AndOne]

Does 'common use' in this verse mean damnation to you, like 'the elder serving the younger' means the condemnation of Esau, to Calvinism?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Romans 9:22

 

[cfmember]

All men are free to believe the Word (God) or Mr. Calvin. But we can't believe both, because they contradict each other. Believers take God at his Word, they believe he tells the truth. For example, believers believe the truth in the many places that God says that Christ died for all mankind (which only makes sense since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) Rom 3:23. That Mr. Calvin didn't believe it and taught just the opposite, that Christ didn't die for all men, just proves that God gives all men the freedom to believe their heart's desire (free-will).

The original question in this post could not be answered by Calvinists. But although we're all free to think what we will of the Word of God, the following opinion of John 1:9 by Mr. Calvin may explain why he had no answers to pass on to his own:


--- That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:9 ---

John Calvin: "But as there are fanatics who rashly strain and torture this passage, so as to infer from it that the grace of illumination is equally offered to all, let us remember that the only subject here treated is the common light of nature, which is far inferior to faith; for never will any man, by all the acuteness and sagacity of his own mind, penetrate into the kingdom of God." (John Calvin online commentary (opinion) on the true Light of John 1:9.)

Again, Mr. Calvin was given the same freedom we all have to give his opinion of the only subject here treated...God (the Word...the true Light), as an inferior faith. But others believe that God/The Word/the true Light is the TRUTH, the superior faith. Nevertheless, both the previous statement and the following one by Mr. Calvin should give his people reason for pause:

John Calvin: "That our mind may be satisfied with the difference which exists between the elect and the reprobate, and may not inquire for any cause higher than the divine will, his purpose was to convince us of this -- that it seems good to God to illuminate some that they may be saved, and to blind others that they may perish: for we ought particularly to notice these words, to whom he wills, and, whom he wills: beyond this he allows us not to proceed." (John Calvin comment on Rom 9:18)

 

[DeaconDean]

Just a general observation from me, but what I see is the OP seeking a specific reason why God chose us.

Somebody mentioned "foreknowledge" and they were all over that.

God's foreknowledge is what Synergists follow. There is something in us that God sees that causes us to be chosen. But that isn't what scripture says:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,...according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4,5 (KJV)

What more can be said?

Who here knows the mind of God?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." -Isa. 55:8-9 (KJV)

Ephesians 1:4-5 simply say that He chose us, before this world was made, for no other reason that it was because it was according to His good pleasure to do so.

That's it. No "foreseen" works on our part. no "foreseen" faith on our part. Nothing in us, or that we could do could merit His grace. He did so because it pleased Him to do so.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[BBAS 64]

It’s time to get back to the question.... For what REASON did God (as Calvinism claims) predestine some to heaven and others to hell before any were born? Only heymikey80 has come close to a believable (reasonable) answer, when he almost said God’s judgment of men was according to his foreknowledge of whether men would be believers or unbelievers.

The whole historical controversy over Calvinism is based in its own idea of double-predestination, that no man was judged by God before he was decreed to heaven or hell. That idea is of course repugnant to people who believe in the Justice in Judgment the Bible teaches, that every man should be given a hearing by a Judge before a verdict is rendered.

Does any Calvinist here know "how" God actually does judge men? (Hint: the Bible tells us)

Good day, Cfmember

I think you misuderstood Mikey..

"It just keeps coming back to that. Knowing someone is not the same thing as knowing something about someone.
"

You presupose for sake of your post that God "knows" something about some one therefore.....

But you have not shown one scripture that say God foreknowns "something".

Whom he foreknew, "whom" are people not some thing about someone. Also foreknew is a verb here God does the action of foreknowing people and not all people "those whom he foreknew".

In Him,

Bill

 

[cfmember]

Again, all are free to accept the spiritual leadership of Mr. Calvin, but it's because of his arguments with Scripture that some freely choose to reject him and his teachings and accept Jesus and his instead.

Did Jesus have no foreknowledge, and when does he in fact possess that? He says, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Calvinism's private translation, the ESV, says "you workers of lawlessness".

Look it up, the etymology of the word "iniquity" is to be uneven, inequal. Yet Calvin accuses God of being lawless?

John Calvin: "But I had good reason for saying that two steps are here to be observed; for in the election of the whole nation, God had already shown that in the exercise of his mere liberality he was under no law but was free, so that he was by no means to be restricted to an equal division of grace, its very inequality proving it to be gratuitous." (Institutes, Ch 21, Of the eternal election, by which God has predestinated some to salvation, and others to destruction.)

The Bible speaks of the man of lawlessness.... Believers believe that was not Jesus. For Mr. Calvin to declare that God is not equal with men doesn't make it true, but is the very thing God accused Israel of doing: "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? Ezek 18:25

Calvinist's are not Israel are they? It appears that Israel hadn't learned anything from the righteous Law of God, nor accepted it as indeed righteous:

"And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. Isa 59:14,15

This goes to the very heart of the controversy over Calvinism, why men reject Mr. Calvin's thoughts and ways, which, as the Calvinist above admits, are not Gods. And it seems to be why Calvinism is unable to answer "how" Jesus judges people to heaven or hell. No judgment of men before their decree of eternal destiny can be found in Calvin's system. But is that true? What does Jesus say about his judgment of men? Did Jesus not give us a Standard by which he judges men to be believers or unbelievers?

Again, "how" does Jesus judge people? (Hint: He says, as I hear I judge...." in John 5:30. When and What does he hear, and with what does he compare what men say that enables him to justly judge men to be believers or unbelievers? (Is it true, as Calvin says, that it is nothing in men that provokes the just judgment of Jesus? Or rather, could it be that Jesus hears the truth some men tell about God and the lies other men tell about the same God?)

 

[bradfordl]

Please dispense with the socratic bush-beating and make a plain assertion.

Your version of what is "fair" is completely immaterial to this debate. "All have sinned..." declares that what is fair is that every human being besides the Lord be sent to hell eternally.

You ask for the reason God chose His elect for salvation, but what you really want is a reason that your presuppositions can swallow, and that you won't find because your presuppositions are flawed. The reason is that He "might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory".

 

[cfmember]

bradfordl, Do you want a plain assertion? Here it is:

The only reason the faith (belief) of John Calvin is rejected is that it contradicts the teachings of God in the Scriptures concerning the just judgment of men by God. Mr. Calvin's idea that God decreed men to either heaven or hell without judgment before any were born is unthinkable to anyone with a conscience (a discernment of right and wrong).

Jesus reveals that a man is justified or condemned by his words (Matt 12:36,37) and that each man's word is his own burden ("And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God." (Jer 23:34-40)

Jesus knows who does and does not pervert the Word of God, because, contrary to Calvin's teachings, he is a just judge who hears men before he judges them (John 5:30) as believers (who accept the truth) or unbelievers (who reject and pervert it). Jesus' idea of judgment is just the opposite of what Calvinism teaches (that God didn't judge men according to his foreknowledge of what they would 'do', which contradicts Scripture..."Doth our law judge any man before it hear him and know what he doeth?" (John 7:51)

It is the contradiction itself (between the teachings of God and Mr. Calvin concerning the judgment of God) that gives all men a personal choice in the matter of whom we choose to believe, God or Mr. Calvin.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, CFmember

I would remind you that this forum is for answering questions, yours has been answered.

To continue along the vein you have started here, could be considered debate which is not allowed here.

Please respect the rules of this forum.

In Him,

Bill

 

[nill]

cfmember, are you ben johnson?

 

[cfmember]

BBAS 64, In whom did you choose to believe, God or Mr. Calvin (you said the forum is for answering questions). Are you willing to reveal to all of us your answer?



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[GrinningDwarf]

If man is responsible to believe in order to be saved, but he can't unless he was chosen, then God demands the impossible, which isn't fair.

Unfortunately...for you..this is the exact argument that Paul anticipates in Romans 9:14-24. You're going to have to play linguistic gymnastics to get around Paul's reply.

 

[bradfordl]

cfmember, are you ben johnson?

Is that a sock I smell?