Need a Calvinist answer

[cfmember]

The one question no Calvinist has yet been able to answer for me is this:

Since Calvinism says that 'election' and 'reprobation' are not based on anything in man (belief or unbelief in Christ), then what were these decrees of God based on? More simply put, 'why' did God 'elect' some and 'reprobate' others? What was the basis for God's decisions? Is any Calvinist able to answer that question from the Scriptures?

 

[nill]

Eph. 1:5-14
5 [In love] he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Something tells me this answer won't satisfy you.

 

[heymikey80]

The one question no Calvinist has yet been able to answer for me is this:

Since Calvinism says that 'election' and 'reprobation' are not based on anything in man (belief or unbelief in Christ), then what were these decrees of God based on? More simply put, 'why' did God 'elect' some and 'reprobate' others? What was the basis for God's decisions? Is any Calvinist able to answer that question from the Scriptures?

Sure, but first, there's a difference with what you're saying.

While election is not based on anything in man, reprobation definitely is. Reprobation is what results in dealing with the sins of fallen mankind when God doesn't choose. Reprobation is determined based on the sinfulness of men. Reprobation is based on fallen human attributes.

It's God's choice that's not based on fallen human attributes (and how could it be otherwise? Can a leopard change his spots? We can't merit God's attention through some other way of "Look at me! Look at meeeee!").

God says precisely three things about His choices, too, three things they're based on. The first: that He loves those He chooses (Ep 2:4). The second: that He knows -- that is, He is friends or Personally connected with His chosen people (Rom 8:29). The third: that God bases His choice on His own purposes, and carries them out by His own will (Ep 1:5). On these things God bases His choices. These are all attributes of God, not features that can be attributed to His people.

This is how the Reformed can say it:
"You are in a worse position than you ever thought ... and more loved than you ever dreamed possible."

 

[cfmember]

Neal, Evidently you already know those verses do not answer the question I asked. I'll try to make the question clearer.

Since 'Election' and 'Reprobation' are both Eternal Judgments of men to heaven or hell by God, What was the Basis (Reason) of God's Judgment of men either to election or to reprobation (since Calvinism says none were yet born when God made these Judgments). What I'm asking is what was God's Standard of Judgment in assigning men to heaven or hell? (For example, we judge men according to a Standard (such as a speed limit, etc.) and aquit them if they're not guilty, and punish them if they are.) What was God's Standard of Judgment that makes him a Just Judge of all men?

 

[cfmember]

heymikey80, you seem to say the reason for election and reprobation is based on God's Foreknowledge. I'm getting closer to an answer now. God's foreknowledge of What led Him to elect or reprobate a man?

 

[seekingpurity047]

How about Exodus chapter 7...

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

 

[heymikey80]

heymikey80, you seem to say the reason for election and reprobation is based on God's Foreknowledge. I'm getting closer to an answer now. God's foreknowledge of What led Him to elect or reprobate a man?

I'll probably have to ask a simple, absurd kind of question to get the meaning across though. And it may turn away your thought that you're getting closer to your answer. Whatever answer you seek, that answer is likely not going to be one you expect.

Do you know Thomas Jefferson? Clearly not, as TJ was dead & gone before you were born.

God knows you in the way that you don't know Thomas Jefferson. It's not a what, but a who that He knows. That's what Rom 8:29 says: "whom He foreknew ...."

It's not something about TJ that you would know. You could probably learn everything there is to know about TJ, and yet you're no closer to knowing TJ relationally. No data gives you the ability to know him, relationally.

As a result, there is no piece of data you can pick on and say, "There, look, that is what God is looking toward." Because there is no such piece of data.

It's not what. It's who.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

The one question no Calvinist has yet been able to answer for me is this:

Since Calvinism says that 'election' and 'reprobation' are not based on anything in man (belief or unbelief in Christ), then what were these decrees of God based on? More simply put, 'why' did God 'elect' some and 'reprobate' others? What was the basis for God's decisions? Is any Calvinist able to answer that question from the Scriptures?

God chooses whosoever He does because He wants to. Scripture doesn't really give us any other details than that, so anything futher is idle speculation.

Do we really need to know why? Isn't the fact that He does sufficient?

 

[Schaeffer]

His purpose is always His own glory.

 

[Elderone]

Neal, Evidently you already know those verses do not answer the question I asked. I'll try to make the question clearer.

Since 'Election' and 'Reprobation' are both Eternal Judgments of men to heaven or hell by God, What was the Basis (Reason) of God's Judgment of men either to election or to reprobation (since Calvinism says none were yet born when God made these Judgments). What I'm asking is what was God's Standard of Judgment in assigning men to heaven or hell? (For example, we judge men according to a Standard (such as a speed limit, etc.) and aquit them if they're not guilty, and punish them if they are.) What was God's Standard of Judgment that makes him a Just Judge of all men?

God's standard of judgment is "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"
Eph 1:11, which is what the passages Neal posted said.

It was not for anything He foreknew.

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, Of God's Eternal Decree, paragraphs 2 thru 5 say about it.

Paragraph 2

Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. Acts 15:18; 1 Sam. 23:11–12; Matt 11:21, 23.
b. Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

Paragraph 3.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.b

a. 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41.
b. Rom. 9:22–23;Eph. 1:5–6; Prov. 16:4.

Paragraph 4.

These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.a

a. 2 Tim. 2:19; John 13:18.

Paragraph 5.

Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,a out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto:b and all to the praise of His glorious grace.c

a. Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom 8:30; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Thess. 5:9.
b. Rom. 9:11, 13, 16; Eph. 1:4,9
c. Eph. 1:6, 12.

 

[cfmember]

seekingpurity047, You came close too (Pharaoh's actions). But are you saying that who you claim to be (the elect) is the Israelites?

heymikey80, Then you're saying that God has No Standard of Judgment in decreeing men to heaven or hell before any are born, but is just a respecter of persons?

GrinningDwarf, Are you saying that God left you unable to "....be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Pet 3:15)

Anybody else know the reason?

 

[seekingpurity047]

Not all Israel is Israel, Rom. 9:6


Furthermore, I think God makes it explicitly clear in the Scriptures why He does anything.

For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.

Isaiah 48:11

Also, take a look at Rom. 9:22-24

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Randy

 

[heymikey80]

heymikey80, Then you're saying that God has No Standard of Judgment in decreeing men to heaven or hell before any are born, but is just a respecter of persons?

Did you miss my first posting on this thread?

I wrote that your assumption statement was also wrong. It's not Calvinistic.

People are condemned to Hell based on their sinfulness, not based solely on an arbitrary decree. If you would like citations from the Synod of Dordt I can pick them up ...

The cause or blame for this unbelief, as well as for all other sins, is not at all in God, but in man. Faith in Jesus Christ, however, and salvation through him is a free gift of God. As Scripture says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8). Likewise: It has been freely given to you to believe in Christ (Phil. 1:29).

God, on the basis of his entirely free, most just, irreproachable, and unchangeable good pleasure, made the following decision: to leave them in the common misery into which, by their own fault, they have plunged themselves
Canons of Dordt, Head 1, Articles 5 & 15
​

So clearly if I'm representing Calvinism I'm taking exception to your assertion. In fact it's just a frontal attack on Calvinists accusing them of believing something they don't.

... those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:
* * *
that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; Canons of Dordt, Conclusion
​

 

[heymikey80]

Ripping down your question to just the only valid part of it ...

heymikey80, Then you're saying that God has No Standard of Judgment in decreeing men to heaven [elided] before any are born, but is just a respecter of persons?

What's a respecter of persons?

Isn't that a reward for something about the person?

So that's invalidated too.

Now we're down to:

Then you're saying that God has No Standard of Judgment in decreeing men to heaven [elided]

God still has a standard, and that is the standard of His Own Free Choice. he says as much:

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:15-16
​

Are you saying that there's something wrong with God's Own Free Choice? Is it unrighteous, that is somehow ... wrong?

Isn't it right for God to choose freely, in and of Himself?

"Take what belongs to you and leave. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?' So the last will be first, and the first last." Mt 20:14-16
​

 

[Schaeffer]

1 Cor. 1:18 - For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor. 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor. 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness,"

The truth of the cross and the pure, free grace by which sinners and enemies of God are declared righteous and made sons and daughters cannot be argued into a person.

 

[cfmember]

Schaeffer, That God's purpose is his own glory doesn't answer the question (although that's true).

Elderone, As for the Westminster Confession, the word of men doesn't prove anything. I realize that's what some want to believe, but I'm looking for God's answer.

So far, heymikey80 seems to be closest to giving an answer when he said that God 'knows'.... Can anyone answer what it is that God foreknows about a man that He would Judge him to heaven or hell?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

GrinningDwarf, Are you saying that God left you unable to "....be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Pet 3:15)

Nope...I'm saying that the only reason Scripture gives...for God's own glory...is not going to meet with your satisfaction. And God doesn't owe anybody any clearer answer than that.

 

[heymikey80]

So far, heymikey80 seems to be closest to giving an answer when he said that God 'knows'.... Can anyone answer what it is that God foreknows about a man that He would Judge him to heaven or hell?

It just keeps coming back to that. Knowing someone is not the same thing as knowing something about someone.

God's saying, "I know you, beforehand." He knows you and predesignates you to salvation -- not to hell. Isn't this the third time I've mentioned it?

 

[Elderone]

Elderone, As for the Westminster Confession, the word of men doesn't prove anything. I realize that's what some want to believe, but I'm looking for God's answer.

I would appear you didn't check the Bible proof texts to backup what the Westminster Confession of Faith was saying. Why do you think they are included?

 

[AndOne]

The standard of judgement is that ALL MEN should go to hell. All men fall short of the Glory of God. No one has the ability to meet God's standard.

Any who are saved - are saved because of grace. Not because they are able to meet God's standard.

Romans 3:27-28

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.