Near perfect existence

[Davian]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I think he is trying not to be wrong about something.

 

[Chriliman]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I'll make it clear. What is true will stand as true no matter what we believe. If you disagree, it's because you don't have a good understanding of truth.

If you agree, that means I'm correct, which you can't let happen for some unknown reason.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'll make it clear. What is true will stand as true no matter what we believe. If you disagree, it's because you don't have a good understanding of truth.

If you agree, that means I'm correct, which you can't let happen for some unknown reason.

If you had actually read what I wrote...

I agreed that our beliefs don't affect what is true.

That has nothing to do with knowing what is actually true though. You still haven't provided a non fallacious reason why anyone would believe that it's true that there is a god.

Until you do such a thing, atheists will remain atheists. And also be aware that the more fallacious arguments Christians throw out, the more opportunities for atheists to point to Christians as being irrational.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Reasons for me to consider?

To ponder. To mull over. To think about.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chriliman]

If you had actually read what I wrote...

I agreed that our beliefs don't affect what is true.

That has nothing to do with knowing what is actually true though. You still haven't provided a non fallacious reason why anyone would believe that it's true that there is a god.

Until you do such a thing, atheists will remain atheists. And also be aware that the more fallacious arguments Christians throw out, the more opportunities for atheists to point to Christians as being irrational.

I think knowing what is true is different from knowing the truth.

For instance: I could know it's true that the universe has a beginning, but knowing that it's true does nothing to explain the truth of why it began.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I think knowing what is true is different from knowing the truth.

For instance: I could know it's true that the universe has a beginning, but knowing that it's true does nothing to explain the truth of why it began.

You're still unnecessarily calling "true" and "truth" different things. If it is true that the universe had a beginning (we don't know for sure and it might not even be an intelligible question.) then that would be a fact. The same as any fact related to how or why (again, perhaps not an intelligible question) it began.

And again...

That has nothing to do with knowing what is actually true though. You still haven't provided a non fallacious reason why anyone would believe that it's true that there is a god.

Until you do such a thing, atheists will remain atheists. And also be aware that the more fallacious arguments Christians throw out, the more opportunities for atheists to point to Christians as being irrational.

 

[anonymous person]

To ponder. To mull over. To think about.


eudaimonia,

Mark

You are a robot, a machine, talking to a machine that has been programmed in such a way that causes me to not concur with your computations. I am not going to concur with your calculations and computatuons because I am hard wired a certain way which causes me to not concur with your calculations.

 

[Davian]

You are a robot, a machine, talking to a machine that has been programmed in such a way that causes me to not concur with your computations. I am not going to concur with your calculations and computatuons because I am hard wired a certain way which causes me to not concur with your calculations.

On what do you base these contradictory statements?

 

[Urlawyer]

If God is perfectly just, which I believe he is,

So, because you personally believe in him, that makes him perfectly just?

who are you to question his actions?

Let me tell you who I am:
I am one who was born with an overly analytical mind into a Christian world
I am one who, despite his need to analyze everything into oblivion, didn't even consider questioning Christian authority or philosophy because he already knew them to be of the highest order of truth.
I am one who accepted Jesus into his heart no fewer than four times as a young boy, not because he stopped believing, but because while he saw everyone else in throes of holy embrace each Sunday, he felt nothing but confusion as to why he only felt his normal self.
I am one who, despite these signs, grew ever stronger in his faith and convinced himself it was just God's way to be subtle with him.
I am one who, no matter how many times he followed "God's signs" and was led into brick walls, never questioned and continued to follow them, eventually exalting them over his own, more logical decisions.
I am one who, when the burden of following God's signs finally hit bedrock, patiently waited for the kingdom of heaven to over take him (because suicide was an abomination in God's eyes).
I am one who, when he realized that not supporting himself to keep alive was just the same as slow suicide, finally left home and took a job that would open his eyes to the world: joining the U.S military.
I am one who, upon seeing the diversity of culture in the military, started looking more intently at the rest of the world; who started discovering other religions and beliefs, other signs and miracles, other fanatic supporters of many different cultures; people who seemed happier.
I am one who, despite his Christian mind screaming "NO!", put his faith on the line and finally analyzed his beliefs with unbiased, reasoned intent... and came up with an answer he didn't like one bit.
I am one who stayed Christian even still, but started to examine everything with skeptical reason and form his own opinions; who started to grow up.
I am one who, after several years, realized one morning that his beliefs were then almost wholly Atheistic and, with tremendous reluctance, formally classified himself as an atheist.
I am one who must still battle intensely with his childhood fear and wishful thinking everyday, but grows ever stronger.
And in the context of questioning the actions of the biblical god, I am the very definition of qualified.


...Well, I didn't really mean to go that far, but there's my life story I guess...apologies for the rambling.

Are you perfectly just?

Even the psychopath knows what is just and unjust in a court of law. Are you saying that in order to know if someone is perfect, you must be perfect yourself? If that's the case, then how could we possibly know that God is perfect? Because he says he is? That wouldn't cut it for anyone else; we would judge them based on their actions.

Make no mistake, he wants us to question him so he can show us how perfect his justice is. If we don't question him then he has no reason to give answers.

Well, let me tell you, I've both followed blindly and... well, you've read the first bit of this post presumably. I have yet to receive an answer of any kind from this god. Not so much as a whisper. Is he trying to put some suspense into it?

 

[Chriliman]

So, because you personally believe in him, that makes him perfectly just?


Let me tell you who I am:
I am one who was born with an overly analytical mind into a Christian world
I am one who, despite his need to analyze everything into oblivion, didn't even consider questioning Christian authority or philosophy because he already knew them to be of the highest order of truth.
I am one who accepted Jesus into his heart no fewer than four times as a young boy, not because he stopped believing, but because while he saw everyone else in throes of holy embrace each Sunday, he felt nothing but confusion as to why he only felt his normal self.
I am one who, despite these signs, grew ever stronger in his faith and convinced himself it was just God's way to be subtle with him.
I am one who, no matter how many times he followed "God's signs" and was led into brick walls, never questioned and continued to follow them, eventually exalting them over his own, more logical decisions.
I am one who, when the burden of following God's signs finally hit bedrock, patiently waited for the kingdom of heaven to over take him (because suicide was an abomination in God's eyes).
I am one who, when he realized that not supporting himself to keep alive was just the same as slow suicide, finally left home and took a job that would open his eyes to the world: joining the U.S military.
I am one who, upon seeing the diversity of culture in the military, started looking more intently at the rest of the world; who started discovering other religions and beliefs, other signs and miracles, other fanatic supporters of many different cultures; people who seemed happier.
I am one who, despite his Christian mind screaming "NO!", put his faith on the line and finally analyzed his beliefs with unbiased, reasoned intent... and came up with an answer he didn't like one bit.
I am one who stayed Christian even still, but started to examine everything with skeptical reason and form his own opinions; who started to grow up.
I am one who, after several years, realized one morning that his beliefs were then almost wholly Atheistic and, with tremendous reluctance, formally classified himself as an atheist.
I am one who must still battle intensely with his childhood fear and wishful thinking everyday, but grows ever stronger.
And in the context of questioning the actions of the biblical god, I am the very definition of qualified.


...Well, I didn't really mean to go that far, but there's my life story I guess...apologies for the rambling.



Even the psychopath knows what is just and unjust in a court of law. Are you saying that in order to know if someone is perfect, you must be perfect yourself? If that's the case, then how could we possibly know that God is perfect? Because he says he is? That wouldn't cut it for anyone else; we would judge them based on their actions.


Well, let me tell you, I've both followed blindly and... well, you've read the first bit of this post presumably. I have yet to receive an answer of any kind from this god. Not so much as a whisper. Is he trying to put some suspense into it?

I appreciate you telling your story, my heart goes out to you because I went through a similar battle trying to justify my faith. Long story short I decided to deeply study the two things that claimed to be truth in my life and those were Christianity and science and it lead me down a path of dark spiritual warfare and it was in the darkest most hopeless moment that I cried out to Jesus because I couldn't take the evil thoughts going through my head. After that point, Jesus helped me overcome the evil and I've been learning more and more about him ever since.

I don't have a fix all answer for you as to why God isn't making himself known to you, but I can assure you that he can make something beautiful out of the worst situations because I've witnessed it first hand.

Again, thanks for sharing because there are people who care

 

[Urlawyer]

I appreciate you telling your story, my heart goes out to you because I went through a similar battle trying to justify my faith. Long story short I decided to deeply study the two things that claimed to be truth in my life and those were Christianity and science and it lead me down a path of dark spiritual warfare and it was in the darkest most hopeless moment that I cried out to Jesus because I couldn't take the evil thoughts going through my head. After that point, Jesus helped me overcome the evil and I've been learning more and more about him ever since.

I don't have a fix all answer for you as to why God isn't making himself known to you, but I can assure you that he can make something beautiful out of the worst situations because I've witnessed it first hand.

Again, thanks for sharing because there are people who care

Ah, judging by the way you've answered, I must have come off as if I was pleading for attention or help. I'm sorry if I gave that impression; the story was merely meant to show that I had come from a background of Christian living and vehemently opposed switching religions, much less opting out entirely, before coming to the answer all disillusioned minds do. I wanted to convey to you that I judge religion, not out of spite, but a desire to strengthen my mind against any future problematic thinking and that I, knowing who god is, am able to judge him with great accuracy.
I long ago came to the conclusion that the way I think is not compatible with religion; you know that little voice in your head that gives you hints on the way you should live (you probably call it your conscience or the Holy Spirit)? Well mine, for as long as I can remember, was always trying to point out inconsistencies in the Christian faith and religion in general. I always ignored it because it countered what I knew, but I listen to it now and it hasn't led me astray yet. I call it "skepticism".
I think it's fine that you stayed with Christianity, but if you had to trade scientific thought for it... well, I can't really... um... yeah, I don't really know what to say to that; it just goes against my very being.

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you would respond to my questions:

So, because you personally believe in him, that makes him perfectly just?


Even the psychopath knows what is just and unjust in a court of law. Are you saying that in order to know if someone is perfect, you must be perfect yourself? If that's the case, then how could we possibly know that God is perfect? Because he says he is? That wouldn't cut it for anyone else; we would judge them based on their actions.


Well, let me tell you, I've both followed blindly and... well, you've read the first bit of this post presumably. I have yet to receive an answer of any kind from this god. Not so much as a whisper. Is he trying to put some suspense into it?

 

[Eudaimonist]

You are a robot, a machine, talking to a machine that has been programmed in such a way that causes me to not concur with your computations. I am not going to concur with your calculations and computatuons because I am hard wired a certain way which causes me to not concur with your calculations.

I don't think that people are mere machines. And I fully accept that you might not find my arguments convincing. If you are convinced, it won't be because you've chosen to be convinced, but because you've thought about what I've said and realized that I'm right.

It is actually calls to faith that treat people like machines. It is like asking someone to download a program into their brains and run it without question.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Chriliman, these people aren't going to repent and surrender their heart and mind and their lives to the lordship of Christ. They have made their decision, probably some time ago, and God does not want us to try to attempt to persuade them otherwise. Let them be.

Ok, now we know what it was all about.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Oh so all of this arguing is really just you telling us what your opinions are?

Yes.

Isn't that what discussion forums are for?

 

[quatona]

Oh so all of this arguing is really just you telling us what your opinions are?

Does that come as a surprise to you? Who else´s opinion did you expect me to tell you?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Why do we all have our own brain?

I could tell you about evolution and biology, but I'm guessing that you are asking a different "why" question. The kind that is invalid.

Like "what is the taste of purple?". Amirite?

Do you have kids? If not, when you do have kids you'll notice they're all about asking the unanswerable questions.

An unanswerable question has no answer by definition......

If I have a truth that can explain anything that's worth explaining, why shouldn't I teach it to them?

But you don't have such truth. You have religious beliefs.
I've just read a post of yours where you said that believing something doesn't make it true. Are you contradicting yourself again?

Should I not teach it to them because you don't believe it's true? Sorry, that's not a good reason to keep my kids from the truth.

Again, you don't have "truth". You have faith-based religious beliefs.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Wise words! We can only make so much logical sense before it becomes clear that the other party has already determined our logical sense is illogical. We can't convince them, only God can.

I don't consider making faith-based statements and then merely declaring them to be "truth", while constantly contradicting yourself to be "logical sense".

 

[quatona]

Wise words! We can only make so much logical sense before it becomes clear that the other party has already determined our logical sense is illogical. We can't convince them, only God can.

When you are unconvincing, blame the audience.

 

[Chriliman]

I don't think that people are mere machines. And I fully accept that you might not find my arguments convincing. If you are convinced, it won't be because you've chosen to be convinced, but because you've thought about what I've said and realized that I'm right.

It is actually calls to faith that treat people like machines. It is like asking someone to download a program into their brains and run it without question.


eudaimonia,

Mark

You're asking us to have faith that the truth has not been found yet and may never be found.

We're asking you to have faith that the truth can be found while your alive on earth if you deeply desire it.

Which seems like a better use of faith?

 

[Eudaimonist]

You're asking us to have faith that the truth has not been found yet and may never be found.

I don't follow what you are saying here. I never said that, and I don't get how you are getting that out of what I had written.


eudaimonia,

Mark