NDE Revelation, Bishop Augustine, Calvin, Arminius or Molin on Destiny?

[GoldenKingGaze]

It's a good question. I tend to think he was. If he wasn't, then why did he have a tongue to cool, when his body wasn't resurrected yet?

The problem with my view (it's always a good idea to consider the problems with our own viewpoints, so we can not hold them too dearly when they are shown to be wrong), is that his brothers who haven't died are not also in torment with him already, and how could that be if everybody has been judged and are either in the lake of fire or in Christ's presence? My answer, weak though it be, is that the story is at least partially a parable, and maybe the timing is what is metaphorical.

From hearing accounts of NDE's, some people have gone into Hell, others are in the graves, others are in paradise, others still in Heaven, and maybe some in purgatory.

 

[Derf]

From hearing accounts of NDE's, some people have gone into Hell, others are in the graves, others are in paradise, others still in Heaven, and maybe some in purgatory.

I wonder how one would know the difference between heaven and paradise, or between hell and purgatory. Those kind of statements would definitely make me question the value of NDEs altogether. I did a thread on the subject a little while ago, but hadn't heard of the disparity you mention.

Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

There are three ways to look at near death experiences. They are true experiences of post-life. They are false, and from Satan/demons They are false, and from somewhere else (someone’s imagination) If #1, we should be able to learn something from them. If #2, we also might be able to learn...

www.christianforums.com

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Our spirits can be filled with living water, and be refreshed many times. Even with no body, there is living water and a type of sensation, actually greater out of the body than in.

 

[Derf]

Our spirits can be filled with living water, and be refreshed many times. Even with no body, there is living water and a type of sensation, actually greater out of the body than in.

Then why would we need to go back to having a body? You'd just made the case that we don't need the resurrection, and Christ's resurrection was superfluous.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Then why would we need to go back to having a body? You'd just made the case that we don't need the resurrection, and Christ's resurrection was superfluous.

The glorified bodies the elect will regain are a mystery to us, Paul doesn't detail them. He describes our bodies as being like seed and rising in a new form. Not to worry about the Heavenly body.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58​

 

[Derf]

The glorified bodies the elect will regain are a mystery to us, Paul doesn't detail them. He describes our bodies as being like seed and rising in a new form. Not to worry about the Heavenly body.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58​

But you agree that the original bodies will be resurrected, in some form? And you're saying that between the death of the body and the resurrection in a new form, all of us that have died will have greater sensory perception? How do you know that?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But you agree that the original bodies will be resurrected, in some form? And you're saying that between the death of the body and the resurrection in a new form, all of us that have died will have greater sensory perception? How do you know that?

From NDEs, a commonality is intensified perception, of the light, or pain. The light would normally be blinding, the pleasure in the light is unearthly. The new body will endure the light...

 

[Derf]

From NDEs, a commonality is intensified perception, of the light, or pain. The light would normally be blinding, the pleasure in the light is unearthly. The new body will endure the light...

But NDEs are usually termed "out of body" experiences, not "new body" experiences. Our new bodies aren't provided until we are resurrected, according to Paul, whom you quoted. If we have such enhanced perception without a body, why do we need the old one to be resurrected?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But NDEs are usually termed "out of body" experiences, not "new body" experiences. Our new bodies aren't provided until we are resurrected, according to Paul, whom you quoted. If we have such enhanced perception without a body, why do we need the old one to be resurrected?

I don't know why we need bodies. Does God have one? Jesus does. Still the wounds.

The new body will be a spiritual body not the sexual reproducing body.

 

[Derf]

I don't know why we need bodies.

Let's talk about this--i think it's an important question.

Does God have one? Jesus does. Still the wounds.

Yes, this is an excellent point to help us answer the above question. So why would Jesus have a body?

The new body will be a spiritual body not the sexual reproducing body.

This might be true, but it's inferred from the statement Jesus made about marriage.

Here's an important passage to help us answer our questions:
Romans 6:4-5 KJV — Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This tells us that our resurrection will be like Christ's, and BECAUSE of that, we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, we should live (in our actions) like Christ now because we will live later (bodily) like Christ lives now. What our bodies are like in the resurrection is so important that it should be already affecting us now.

Why do you think we will need bodies if we have everything we need in heaven without our bodies? I'm just rephrasing your question, hoping you will think about it and give me an answer before I tell you my opinion.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Let's talk about this--i think it's an important question.

Yes, this is an excellent point to help us answer the above question. So why would Jesus have a body?

This might be true, but it's inferred from the statement Jesus made about marriage.

Here's an important passage to help us answer our questions:
Romans 6:4-5 KJV — Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This tells us that our resurrection will be like Christ's, and BECAUSE of that, we should walk in newness of life.

In other words, we should live (in our actions) like Christ now because we will live later (bodily) like Christ lives now. What our bodies are like in the resurrection is so important that it should be already affecting us now.

Why do you think we will need bodies if we have everything we need in heaven without our bodies? I'm just rephrasing your question, hoping you will think about it and give me an answer before I tell you my opinion.

The heavenly body like a plant differing from the seed, will have a different function and ability. In Revelation Jesus' body is described as looking like a gem stone.

They will endure the glory of God without dying. 1 Corinthians 6 mentions not sinning in the body. The body is eternal. The soul and Spirit don't have a history in the hereafter. Or it is perfected, washed clean. The body has atonement.

Does God the Father have a body of matter? Did Jesus before His conception, and the Spirit? If they have bodies, why did they make them, or is matter self existent? I do not think matter is self existent.

Only a few in Heaven have their bodies.

I don't know why we need material bodies in the hereafter. Heaven is a mystery.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't know why we need bodies. Does God have one? Jesus does. Still the wounds.

The new body will be a spiritual body not the sexual reproducing body.

Our bodies will be THESE SAME BODIES, but remade. We will still be us, but, completed. Not what we think we are now. More.

 

[Derf]

The heavenly body like a plant differing from the seed, will have a different function and ability.

The seed has no sexual reproductive capability...but the plant does.

In Revelation Jesus' body is described as looking like a gem stone.

In the gospels it was described a little differently. Perhaps the description in Revelation includes symbolism, rather than just a pretty word picture.

They will endure the glory of God without dying.

You mean after they get their new, reborn bodies, right?

1 Corinthians 6 mentions not sinning in the body. The body is eternal. The soul and Spirit don't have a history in the hereafter.

I don't know what that means.

Or it is perfected, washed clean. The body has atonement.

Does God the Father have a body of matter? Did Jesus before His conception, and the Spirit? If they have bodies, why did they make them, or is matter self existent? I do not think matter is self existent.

I don't see any evidence of the Father and the Spirit having bodies. But humans have bodies. When Jesus became a human, He also began to have a body. Jesus remains a human forever, with a body. That makes it seem like you can't be human without body.

Only a few in Heaven have their bodies.

How do you know this? What scripture talks about bodiless humans in heaven?

I don't know why we need material bodies in the hereafter. Heaven is a mystery.

But the fact that we seem to need them might be informative as to why, and might suggest that your theology about the human body might be wrong.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The seed has no sexual reproductive capability...but the plant does.

In the gospels it was described a little differently. Perhaps the description in Revelation includes symbolism, rather than just a pretty word picture.

You mean after they get their new, reborn bodies, right?

I don't know what that means.

I don't see any evidence of the Father and the Spirit having bodies. But humans have bodies. When Jesus became a human, He also began to have a body. Jesus remains a human forever, with a body. That makes it seem like you can't be human without body.

How do you know this? What scripture talks about bodiless humans in heaven?

But the fact that we seem to need them might be informative as to why, and might suggest that your theology about the human body might be wrong.

The simile of the seed dying and being reborn is not to the extent to claim to know that the new body is reproductive. Plants reproduce asexually and sexually but we don't know if we will have wives in the afterlife, Jesus suggested not, Swedenborg had other ideas.

John the apostle in Revelation describes Jesus new body as glorious or looking not like flesh but like a gem, and the angel in the same passage, has the appearance of glowing metal. John is not merely being polite. It reminds me of a black and white picture of a model with a flower, and it looks like she is made of marble, with rippling blood vessels.

Yes, the Heavenly body will be able to stand beside God the Father...

In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul describes that doing something like perving and coveting is done in the mind, with real heart intent, but fornicating involves the loins, union ability, water weld, blood to blood, sexual union. Heaven is place with a different time nature. History is different there. You can ask God to change the past and future. You can repent and do more than change your heart desire. Angels have no history. We don't know if they have bodies, if they do they may not always use them. Like angels, our spirits and souls can exist in Heaven and God can change them as we both wish, but a body conception like a baby or even sexual intercourse will part of the history of the body forever and the body can be painted or atoned for with Jesus' sacred and powerful blood. So it is justified.

We can be human without a body. Incomplete.

Only Enoch, maybe Moses, Elijah, maybe Mother Mary, and Jesus have their bodies mentioned in Heaven. The bodies we have now will be buried or cremated, and until the resurrection, will remain on Earth. "The Earth and the Sea will give up their dead."

Ian McCormack describes his body of light in Heaven. Otherwise you think God will make a new body for you in Heaven?

 

[Derf]

The simile of the seed dying and being reborn is not to the extent to claim to know that the new body is reproductive.

The point was that if we follow the plant metaphor too far, it gets us in trouble.

Plants reproduce asexually and sexually but we don't know if we will have wives in the afterlife, Jesus suggested not, Swedenborg had other ideas.

Jesus didn't just suggest it. I don't know much about Swedenborg.

John the apostle in Revelation describes Jesus new body as glorious or looking not like flesh but like a gem,

Rev 4? That's describing God, the Father, isn't it?

and the angel in the same passage, has the appearance of glowing metal. John is not merely being polite. It reminds me of a black and white picture of a model with a flower, and it looks like she is made of marble, with rippling blood vessels.

Yes, the Heavenly body will be able to stand beside God the Father...

In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul describes that doing something like perving and coveting is done in the mind, with real heart intent, but fornicating involves the loins, union ability, water weld, blood to blood, sexual union. Heaven is place with a different time nature. History is different there. You can ask God to change the past and future.

You can ask God to change the past, but there's little inducation that He will. If He could, then why not change it so that the crucifixion wasn't necessary?

You can repent and do more than change your heart desire. Angels have no history. We don't know if they have bodies, if they do they may not always use them. Like angels, our spirits and souls can exist in Heaven and God can change them as we both wish, but a body conception like a baby or even sexual intercourse will part of the history of the body forever and the body can be painted or atoned for with Jesus' sacred and powerful blood. So it is justified.

We can be human without a body. Incomplete.

Like a tree without a trunk, leaves, and roots? The only time that happens in nature is when the tree is a seed. That means we don't know what our bodies will look like, or be able to accomplish, but we will have them, and they will be greater than our current bodies in a similar way that wheat is greater than seed.

Only Enoch, maybe Moses, Elijah, maybe Mother Mary, and Jesus have their bodies mentioned in Heaven. The bodies we have now will be buried or cremated, and until the resurrection, will remain on Earth. "The Earth and the Sea will give up their dead."

Ian McCormack describes his body of light in Heaven. Otherwise you think God will make a new body for you in Heaven?

Ian McCormack may be describing something that's false. We don't trust someone's view of heaven just because they say they went there.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The point was that if we follow the plant metaphor too far, it gets us in trouble.

Jesus didn't just suggest it. I don't know much about Swedenborg.

Rev 4? That's describing God, the Father, isn't it?

You can ask God to change the past, but there's little inducation that He will. If He could, then why not change it so that the crucifixion wasn't necessary?

Like a tree without a trunk, leaves, and roots? The only time that happens in nature is when the tree is a seed. That means we don't know what our bodies will look like, or be able to accomplish, but we will have them, and they will be greater than our current bodies in a similar way that wheat is greater than seed.

Ian McCormack may be describing something that's false. We don't trust someone's view of heaven just because they say they went there.

Rev 4 says, The One who was and is and is to come, so Jesus, by then glorified. Three thrones, holy thrice, God is I AM THAT I AM, not I WAS and I WILL BE. Except for Jesus, who will come again.

I think God changes the past by petition and one at a time. Few people have thought to pray for it. We usually want to change the now and later. There is the idea that lamb's blood atoned for sin, but Jesus' powerful blood, washes sin away.

I think it is simple, the spirit and soul can live in the light of life, or suffer in Hell.

Hundreds of thousands of people have the NDEs. From all over the world. Muslims consider them blasphemous. So many people have seen the light and been filled.