NDE Revelation, Bishop Augustine, Calvin, Arminius or Molin on Destiny?

GoldenKingGaze

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I have a new view and siding regarding pre-destiny and grace.
All ancient and medieval views were wrong, because they thought one needed to believe and be baptized in order to go into the light of life as when leaving the Earth. 1 Timothy 4:10.

Babies sometimes die and are not baptized, and they never learned faith. But they go into the light whether aborted or they die from illness... They take to grace like a Dolphin to water. Later they are born again.

It is only as we grow up that we learn to harden our hearts to grace like Pharaoh who rejected Moses' words. If he had died or had a child NDE his fate would have been different. No babies go to Hell, or are judged by an anticipation of what kind of life they'd have led, in the dim light of this world. Grace saves any who will allow it to hold them.

A person can be taught or self teach a better response to grace a second time.
 

Derf

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I have a new view and siding regarding pre-destiny and grace.
All ancient and medieval views were wrong, because they thought one needed to believe and be baptized in order to go into the light of life as when leaving the Earth. 1 Timothy 4:10.

Babies sometimes die and are not baptized, and they never learned faith. But they go into the light whether aborted or they die from illness... They take to grace like a Dolphin to water. Later they are born again.
I'm starting to think being born again is talking about resurrection.
It is only as we grow up that we learn to harden our hearts to grace like Pharaoh who rejected Moses' words.
That makes sense to me.
If he had died or had a child NDE his fate would have been different. No babies go to Hell,
Are they babies in the resurrection? The bible talks about judgment occurring after people are resurrected, and Jesus was resurrected in the same body He died in (remember the scars). If they are then judged for what they did in earth, and nothing is held to their account because they were babies, then this would make sense.
or are judged by an anticipation of what kind of life they'd have led, in the dim light of this world.
I don't think so. That removes the culpability if they were predestined to be wicked.
Grace saves any who will allow it to hold them.
Not sure what you mean. Grace isn't an entity.
A person can be taught or self teach a better response to grace a second time.
Having a second opportunity is a type of grace.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Being born again, of the Spirit is from John ch 3. It is distinct from the resurrection from the dead.

Pharaoh from Romans 9, is mentioned in the thought beginning in ch 8 about God's foreknowledge rather than predetermined choice. As a boy he would have responded well to grace, as a man, he had rejected the neighbouring Hebrew people's ways and God. The Egyptians looked down on goat herders and their gods were designed to provide all the religious answers, better than the Hebrew Elohim. So Moses spoke of seven plagues coming down on Egypt to disprove those beliefs, but by this time, Pharaoh was proud and stubborn, and rejected God.

If a baby is judged, yes there is no sin, or nothing much. But innocence doesn't save them, they can stand in eternity only by grace, being things like, receiving Jesus that is being born again. From that hey can go from innocent to love, Gal 5:22. The living water, the Tree of Life for eternal youth, by the Blood of Christ they can become sons and daughters of God, and find perfect justice within, and show mercy... the blood makes them clean from any small sins...

No one is predestined to be wicked. Romans 8 mentions foreknowledge not forechoice.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are grace and from Jesus' throne comes living water, which is God but also a thing not a Him. When Jesus returns to rule, we'll see a thing, His light, only a few will see His skin and face... So there is the glory of God in the light from the face of God, and living water, Jesus' sacred blood, the oil and fire of God, resurrection power, the latter mentioned in Romans 8.

If someone does not receive grace the first time, some would say that shows God's predestining choice, but a second chance, and it taken shows it is up to the individual and their preacher not only predetermination by God. God always wants us to receive grace and be changed by it.
I'm starting to think being born again is talking about resurrection.

That makes sense to me.

Are they babies in the resurrection? The bible talks about judgment occurring after people are resurrected, and Jesus was resurrected in the same body He died in (remember the scars). If they are then judged for what they did in earth, and nothing is held to their account because they were babies, then this would make sense.

I don't think so. That removes the culpability if they were predestined to be wicked.

Not sure what you mean. Grace isn't an entity.

Having a second opportunity is a type of grace.
 
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Derf

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Being born again, of the Spirit is from John ch 3. It is distinct from the resurrection from the dead.
Yes, that's where it's from, but from that you can't tell that it's distinct from resurrection.
Pharaoh from Romans 9, is mentioned in the thought beginning in ch 8 about God's foreknowledge rather than predetermined choice. As a boy he would have responded well to grace
You already agreed with me (below) that grace wasn't as necessary when he was a boy. If not as necessary, then not as much grace.

Luke 7:42-43 KJV — And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

, as a man, he had rejected the neighbouring Hebrew people's ways and God. The Egyptians looked down on goat herders and their gods were designed to provide all the religious answers, better than the Hebrew Elohim. So Moses spoke of seven plagues
Usually people think there were 10 plagues.
coming down on Egypt to disprove those beliefs, but by this time, Pharaoh was proud and stubborn, and rejected God.

If a baby is judged, yes there is no sin, or nothing much. But innocence doesn't save them, they can stand in eternity only by grace,
I agree, but why do they need grace?
being things like, receiving Jesus that is being born again. From that hey can go from innocent to love, Gal 5:22. The living water, the Tree of Life for eternal youth, by the Blood of Christ they can become sons and daughters of God, and find perfect justice within, and show mercy... the blood makes them clean from any small sins...

No one is predestined to be wicked. Romans 8 mentions foreknowledge not forechoice.
Agreed, but Eph mentions forechoice.
Ephesians 1:4 KJV — According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are grace
Huh? Grace isn't a person, it's something that is bestowed on one person by another, as you point out in the rest of the sentence.
and from Jesus' throne comes living water, which is God but also a thing not a Him. When Jesus returns to rule, we'll see a thing, His light, only a few will see His skin and face...
How do you know this?
So there is the glory of God in the light from the face of God, and living water, Jesus' sacred blood, the oil and fire of God, resurrection power, the latter mentioned in Romans 8.

If someone does not receive grace the first time, some would say that shows God's predestining choice, but a second chance, and it taken shows it is up to the individual and their preacher not only predetermination by God.
Not sure what you mean here.
God always wants us to receive grace and be changed by it.
God has already bestowed Grace on all mankind in the death of Jesus Christ for the world. But some won't acknowledge what they have already been given, I.e. resurrection from the dead.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Nicodemus was to be born again in a short time. We are born again by the Spirit, so by receiving the Spirit. Romans 8 mentions the Spirit often. Colossians 2:6.

I am suggesting that Pharaoh as a boy would receive grace.

You were right, there were ten plagues.

Babies who die need grace. They are not right by no guilt. Grace is like water or air, a fish or a child must breath in order to live. Living in the light of life needs the light and air in paradise to sustain the baby. And others like angels or great grand parents.

The babies need Jesus' blood to become God's children, and it gives them righteousness, if need be makes them clean. Water, blood, light, knowledge... gives them life, to stand before God faultless, not merely no ill repute. They never earned Jesus' blood.

God foreknew those of whom He called, would respond to grace, and chose the responders in Ephesus for example. Romans 28-30.

God is grace to us, His knowledge. Also from Jesus presence comes living water, as in Revelation, the last chapter. It is Him, but in the original Greek it is a thing rather than a person. When Christ returns He said in the Gospel, it will be like lightening, lighting up east and west... that is from Matthew 24:27, 2 Corinthians 4. The glory of God in the face of Christ, and the breath of His mouth. Things from Him, that are God and grace. Not many will see His dark hair... because it is small.

So some say that if you are given grace but for any reason you harden up instead of softening your heart, that shows God makes you hard and it is is forechoice to predestine you to Hell. But if a second time with revision and wisdom and preacher speaks and prays for you, you may soften and grow into salvation, showing it is not God's choice but yours.

The quality of parenting, preaching and laying on of hands and wisdom means the difference in choice for Christ or rejecting His cross...

Yes, that's where it's from, but from that you can't tell that it's distinct from resurrection.

You already agreed with me (below) that grace wasn't as necessary when he was a boy. If not as necessary, then not as much grace.

Luke 7:42-43 KJV — And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.


Usually people think there were 10 plagues.

I agree, but why do they need grace?

Agreed, but Eph mentions forechoice.
Ephesians 1:4 KJV — According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Huh? Grace isn't a person, it's something that is bestowed on one person by another, as you point out in the rest of the sentence.

How do you know this?

Not sure what you mean here.

God has already bestowed Grace on all mankind in the death of Jesus Christ for the world. But some won't acknowledge what they have already been given, I.e. resurrection from the dead.
 
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Derf

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Nicodemus was to be born again in a short time. We are born again by the Spirit, so by receiving the Spirit. Romans 8 mentions the Spirit often. Colossians 2:6.
Here's some from Rom 8. Notice how it looks forward to our adoption, which is the redemption of our bodies, or resurrection.

Romans 8:15 KJV — For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:23 KJV — And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So while we have received the spirit of adoption, and thus can call ourselves the sons of God, we haven't been fully adopted--we're still waiting for that.

I am suggesting that Pharaoh as a boy would receive grace.
Because he hadn't hardened his heart? Sure.
You were right, there were ten plagues.

Babies who die need grace.
Why?
They are not right by no guilt.
You mean they are guilty because of something someone else did before they were conceived?
Grace is like water or air, a fish or a child must breath in order to live. Living in the light of life needs the light and air in paradise to sustain the baby. And others like angels or great grand parents.
I don't understand what you mean.
The babies need Jesus' blood to become God's children, and it gives them righteousness, if need be makes them clean.
Clean from what?
Water, blood, light, knowledge... gives them life, to stand before God faultless, not merely no ill repute. They never earned Jesus' blood.
No one does. But did they earn death? If so, how? Adam earned death by eating if the tree of knowledge of good and evil after God said not to.
God foreknew those of whom He called, would respond to grace, and chose the responders in Ephesus for example.
Did He? Ephesians doesn't say that explicitly. It says we are chosen "in Christ". So everyone that puts on Christ is foreknown, but not necessarily because God foreknows who will choose Christ.
Romans 28-30.

God is grace to us, His knowledge. Also from Jesus presence comes living water, as in Revelation, the last chapter. It is Him, but in the original Greek it is a thing rather than a person.
Maybe it's a metaphor.
When Christ returns He said in the Gospel, it will be like lightening, lighting up east and west... that is from Matthew 24:27, 2 Corinthians 4.
Lightning from east to west describes the quickness and visibility of His coming. That doesn't mean we won't ever be able to see his skin.
The glory of God in the face of Christ, and the breath of His mouth. Things from Him, that are God and grace. Not many will see His dark hair... because it is small.
How do you know His hair is dark?
Revelation 1:14 KJV — His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

So some say that if you are given grace but for any reason you harden up instead of softening your heart, that shows God makes you hard and it is is forechoice to predestine you to Hell. But if a second time with revision and wisdom and preacher speaks and prays for you, you may soften and grow into salvation, showing it is not God's choice but yours.
Any act of scoffing at God's commands will harden your heart some. But repentance is still possible for a time. Eventually anyone who doesn't repent will be destroyed.
The quality of parenting, preaching and laying on of hands and wisdom means the difference in choice for Christ or rejecting His cross...
All those things are helpful, and are tools of the Holy Spirit to call us to God.

If I could ask you a favor...when you reply, do it from my post (you may be doing this already), then after any point you want to respond to, but return on the middle of my quoted text, and the editor should section out the different portions whenever you hit return. Then it's easier to tell which part you are responding to.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Here's some from Rom 8. Notice how it looks forward to our adoption, which is the redemption of our bodies, or resurrection.

Romans 8:15 KJV — For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:23 KJV — And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

So while we have received the spirit of adoption, and thus can call ourselves the sons of God, we haven't been fully adopted--we're still waiting for that.
Speaking soteriologically we are first justified by grace, then sanctified, and in a long time by human standards, we will be glorified. Glorified with glorious bodies. The body perfecting comes last.
Because he hadn't hardened his heart? Sure.

Why?

You mean they are guilty because of something someone else did before they were conceived?
Paul did says a child can be unclean at birth. If one of the parents is not sanctified. But even a Christian child, his or her heart can be slightly tainted. But they probably have no guilt.
I don't understand what you mean.
Angels in Heaven eat the bread of life and drink the living water... by such things, they are stronger than demons. And they have more knowledge.
Babies need to grow up in Heaven, they have parents and guardians. They are persuaded to love. They are Spirit filled. No one can live without the Spirit. Children after the fall on Earth, are not born filled with the Spirit. They need grace to live.
Clean from what?

No one does. But did they earn death? If so, how? Adam earned death by eating if the tree of knowledge of good and evil after God said not to.
Babies did not earn death, but need the Spirit to live. If they were taken to another world without Satan or temptations, diseases... they could live in the body on food, but would still need the Holy Spirit if they were to reverence and love God. And their neighbours.
Did He? Ephesians doesn't say that explicitly. It says we are chosen "in Christ". So everyone that puts on Christ is foreknown, but not necessarily because God foreknows who will choose Christ.
God gives us justice, mercy and grace and truth. But some called with the message are not chosen. Not God's choice but theirs. "Many are called, few are chosen."
Maybe it's a metaphor.
John saw the trees of life and the living water, the Gospel has the dove like descent on oil at Jesus' baptism. People receive these things and are refreshed... It can be both a metaphor and visible, and you can drink it by faith.
Lightning from east to west describes the quickness and visibility of His coming. That doesn't mean we won't ever be able to see his skin.
And He said don't believe them if they say He is here... in a private room... Philippians 2 says the world will be on their knees. Under the great light, and 1 Corinthians 13 that tongues and prophesy will cease, because of Him replacing those distanced gifts. You don't need a telephone when the guest is in the house. I point out 2 Corinthians 4 and the glory of God in the face of Christ will illuminate the whole Earth. The army set up to stop Him will be destroyed by the breath of His mouth. Not simply metaphors. Instead non personal forms of God, ruling powers.
How do you know His hair is dark?
Revelation 1:14 KJV — His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
The character with the white hair refused to be worshiped. It was an angel. Hebrews usually have dark hair.
Any act of scoffing at God's commands will harden your heart some. But repentance is still possible for a time. Eventually anyone who doesn't repent will be destroyed.
I agree, softening is up to us, we have chances. God never hardens us as a choice made for us.
All those things are helpful, and are tools of the Holy Spirit to call us to God.

If I could ask you a favor...when you reply, do it from my post (you may be doing this already), then after any point you want to respond to, but return on the middle of my quoted text, and the editor should section out the different portions whenever you hit return. Then it's easier to tell which part you are responding to.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The idea of original sin gives the idea that a compulsion to sin lives in all of our bodies. But at the fall, we also lost the Holy Spirit as part of daily life. It was not that way in the beginning, the way of independence, no Holy Spirit...

We need to Holy Spirit to have the God kind of love. And we need Him for ground, air, everything.

The old RCC lost a lot of that knowledge. How to properly say mass. How to seek the Spirit and how to receive the Spirit presence and power, how to use it...

The old mass was and usually is dry of the Spirit and most of spiritual life.

It takes determination for a soul by himself to seek God, find Him and take in the Spirit and live out salvation. And it is what we need, because when we are born, unlike the first couple, we have not been filled with His presence.
 
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Derf

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Speaking soteriologically we are first justified by grace, then sanctified, and in a long time by human standards, we will be glorified. Glorified with glorious bodies. The body perfecting comes last.

Paul did says a child can be unclean at birth. If one of the parents is not sanctified. But even a Christian child, his or her heart can be slightly tainted. But they probably have no guilt.

Angels in Heaven eat the bread of life and drink the living water... by such things, they are stronger than demons. And they have more knowledge.
Babies need to grow up in Heaven, they have parents and guardians. They are persuaded to love. They are Spirit filled. No one can live without the Spirit. Children after the fall on Earth, are not born filled with the Spirit. They need grace to live.
They need grace to live after death.
Babies did not earn death, but need the Spirit to live. If they were taken to another world without Satan or temptations, diseases... they could live in the body on food, but would still need the Holy Spirit if they were to reverence and love God. And their neighbours.
I don't think you have any scripture that says such.
God gives us justice, mercy and grace and truth. But some called with the message are not chosen. Not God's choice but theirs. "Many are called, few are chosen."

John saw the trees of life and the living water, the Gospel has the dove like descent on oil at Jesus' baptism.
John saw them in a vision which contained many things expressed metaphorically. And where do you get the "oil" reference regarding the descent of the Holy Spirit at Jesus baptism? That's not in scripture.
People receive these things and are refreshed... It can be both a metaphor and visible, and you can drink it by faith.

And He said don't believe them if they say He is here... in a private room... Philippians 2 says the world will be on their knees. Under the great light, and 1 Corinthians 13 that tongues and prophesy will cease, because of Him replacing those distanced gifts. You don't need a telephone when the guest is in the house. I point out 2 Corinthians 4 and the glory of God in the face of Christ will illuminate the whole Earth. The army set up to stop Him will be destroyed by the breath of His mouth. Not simply metaphors. Instead non personal forms of God, ruling powers.
But none of that says we won't see his skin.
The character with the white hair refused to be worshiped. It was an angel. Hebrews usually have dark hair.
The character does not refuse to be worshipped. Can you show me where you think he does?
I agree, softening is up to us, we have chances. God never hardens us as a choice made for us.
 
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fhansen

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I have a new view and siding regarding pre-destiny and grace.
All ancient and medieval views were wrong, because they thought one needed to believe and be baptized in order to go into the light of life as when leaving the Earth. 1 Timothy 4:10.

Babies sometimes die and are not baptized, and they never learned faith. But they go into the light whether aborted or they die from illness... They take to grace like a Dolphin to water. Later they are born again.

It is only as we grow up that we learn to harden our hearts to grace like Pharaoh who rejected Moses' words. If he had died or had a child NDE his fate would have been different. No babies go to Hell, or are judged by an anticipation of what kind of life they'd have led, in the dim light of this world. Grace saves any who will allow it to hold them.

A person can be taught or self teach a better response to grace a second time.
A basic "flaw" of mankind exists in us all, which is why we all inevitably sin even though no one is created to sin. We're born weak, sick, wounded, lost, lacking something. We're born distanced or alientated from God, not not knowing Him. This separation constitutes "death" for man, who is literally made for union with God. "Apart from Me you can do nothing"-John 15:5.

And this is why Jesus says that all must be reborn. So this lost and unjust state of being eventually mainfests itself in all of us, as sin. The essence of sin is that very separation from God, a state that resulted from Adam first failing to recognize and accept God, as God. That's what we're all called to do now, in order be healed, to have life.
 
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Derf

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A basic "flaw" of mankind exists in us all, which is why we all inevitably sin even though no one is created to sin. We're born weak, sick, wounded, lost, lacking something. We're born distanced or alientated from God, not not knowing Him. This separation constitutes "death" for man, who is literally made for union with God. "Apart from Me you can do nothing"-John 15:5.

And this is why Jesus says that all must be reborn. So this lost and unjust state of being eventually mainfests itself in all of us, as sin. The essence of sin is that very separation from God, a state that resulted from Adam first failing to recognize and accept God, as God. That's what we're all called to do now, in order be healed, to have life.
It's funny that we always have to redefine death to mean separation in order to explain our gospel. Why do you think that is?
 
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fhansen

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It's funny that we always have to redefine death to mean separation in order to explain our gospel. Why do you think that is?
I don't even have to hear the gospel in order to know somethings not quite right with humankind
 
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fhansen

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Then why change the meaning of death when presenting the gospel?
How is the meaning changed? The gospel is all about dying to the old and rising to the new, being dead already-and reborn now.
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." Eph 2:1-2

Sin kills, because it opposes and separates us from God. The original sin was that first basic act of separation from God's authority, which opened the door to all subsequent sins. It's spiritual death, sometimes referred to as the "death of the soul".
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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They need grace to live after death.
Who can live in a vacuum?
I don't think you have any scripture that says such.
Who can live spiritually by either the Bible or God's Spirit alone? Galatians 5:22
John saw them in a vision which contained many things expressed metaphorically. And where do you get the "oil" reference regarding the descent of the Holy Spirit at Jesus baptism? That's not in scripture.
Luke 4 says Jesus was anointed, so oil fell on Him, like a dove. Usually the priest would mix oil and anoint priests and kings...
But none of that says we won't see his skin.
How can the whole globe see His skin? They may see it on TV or whatever technology they will have.
The character does not refuse to be worshipped. Can you show me where you think he does?
Revelations 19:10 and 22:9
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's funny that we always have to redefine death to mean separation in order to explain our gospel. Why do you think that is?
I'm not sure that's true. I mean, it is obvious that death means separation, but I don't know that pointing out that fact is basic to the gospel explanation.
 
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Derf

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I'm not sure that's true. I mean, it is obvious that death means separation,
It's not obvious to me.
but I don't know that pointing out that fact is basic to the gospel explanation.
I agree. But I see it and hear it all the time as part of the gospel presentation.

How would you explain the gospel without that definition?
 
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Derf

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Revelations 19:10 and 22:9
Can we just focus on a single claim of yours for the moment? Where do you find any white hair in those two passages? If you can't show any, it tells me that your integrity for showing scripture that supports your positions, any of them, is deficient. Please respond.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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From the NKJV
Revelation 1
7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.


8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the [e]Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Vision of the Son of Man​

9I, John, [f]both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11saying, [g]“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches [h]which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”


12Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying Revelation 1 NKJVto me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of [j]Hades and of Death. 19[k]Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. 20The [l]mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the [m]angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands [n]which you saw are the seven churches.


Revelation 19
Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”


Christ on a White Horse​

11Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

1And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

Revelation 4
1After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”


2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3[a]And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. 4Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white Revelation 4 NKJVrobes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. 5And from the throne proceeded lightnings, [c]thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the[d] seven Spirits of God.

9Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:


11“You are worthy, [g]O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they [h]exist and were created.”



Revelation 22

The Time Is Near​

6Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the Revelation 22 NKJVholy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.


7“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”


8Now I, John, [c]saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.


9Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. [d]For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”


17And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

These quotes from Revelation show an angel of Jesus who speaks for Him. His hair is white... Jesus looks like jasper and sardius stone, on the throne.

Jesus returns to defeat an army. How can everyone see Him? The supernatural, light, a wonder. The perfect thing to come is light, from His face, a greater revelation than scripture or spiritual gifts...

The angel speaks as if Jesus Himself, because Jesus' Spirit fills Him, but it is an angel who later says we ought not to worship Him. Chapter 1 then 19 and 22.

I am sure the tree of life and living water are real as described and others have seen the river in NDEs.

Tongues of fire fell on the apostles in Acts 2, it is metaphorical and literal and His power. Like Jesus' sacred blood. And the oil.
 
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Derf

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How is the meaning changed? The gospel is all about dying to the old and rising to the new, being dead already-and reborn now.
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." Eph 2:1-2
"Now at work..." doing what? Killing them. Satan is a murderer, and his goal is to kill as many people as possible by getting them to continue in sin. They aren't actually dead yet, because they can disobey. Dead people can't disobey or obey, they're just dead.
Sin kills, because it opposes and separates us from God.
Sin kills because it makes us die. The wages of sin is death, not separation. But the gift of God is eternal life, not eternal togetherness. We might also get eternal togetherness, but that's not what that verse says, though the Holy Spirit is certainly capable of inspiring someone to write that, if He wanted.
The original sin was that first basic act of separation from God's authority, which opened the door to all subsequent sins. It's spiritual death, sometimes referred to as the "death of the soul".
The original sin was the first thing that caused death to its participants. Spiritual death is a made up concept that the gospel doesn't require, neither is it necessary to plug that in every time we see the bible talk about death as a foregone conclusion, as in "you were dead in your trespasses and sins."
 
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