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Nature of Man

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Without the enlightenment none of us would be framing the discussion the way it is currently framed. The YEC position is at least guilty of taking on the post enlightenment assumptions while the TE position is an attempt to put them in their proper place.

The realisation that we need to get back to some of the pre-enlightenment ways of reading literature and to get beyond the enlightenment's obsession with "hard objective facts" over meaning and of literal and plain over metaphor, symbol and myth will survive independently of scientific dating of the world's origins.

I grant you that their are some worldly distortions in the ways and manners in which some creationists will argue their cases. The enlightenments value for me was the recovery of the human and historical which had been lost by the ascetic and over transcendent approach of the scholastics.

But perhaps one value of the enlightenment was that it purged out some versions of allegorisation and metaphorical expression that were clearly ludicrous and which had more to do with the adoption of the Greek philosophical outlooks of Plato and Aristotle than to do with scripture itself.
 
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Wow, you think I am forcing things into Genesis 2 when you turn it into a "phenomenological experience"
to deny the simply order laid out in the narrative. Creationists insist Genesis 2 is history, but the deny the order of events in their historical record. But phenomenological experience? Isn't that reading early 20th century existential philosophy into an ancient Hebrew text? Anyway, whose phenomenological experience was it when God formed Adam from dust, or put Adam to sleep to from Eve from a rib? Wasn't Adam awake when it says 'So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field' why isn't that part of Adam's phenomenological experience after the phenomenological experience of naming all the animals?

You cleverly force me to clarify. I see the so called first account of Gen 1 as the transcendent Gods eye perspective complete with rationale for all the forming and filling he did in the 6 days of creation. Basically God does it, says its good, end of day. The second approach starts at ground level and you are right only God could have watched the whole process through. But unlike the first chapter the events are not in the chronological order. The focus is on the man , his creation, Gods special care of him and finally the creation of the woman and the rationale for that. We have two pictures of the same story- Gods transcendence and immanence. The divine and the human. In the first account God is hurling stars into creation , in the second he is walking through a special garden he created for his most precious creation and is interested in how he will name the animals and setting down rules for the newly weds he brought together. Phenomenological may not be the perfect word to describe it but the point is its focus on the history of the man from the ground up rather than from God down.

But none of this depend on Leonardo's hardware not sharing a common ancestor with the chimps.

True the commonalities in the materials from which both ape and man are constructed are not the issue although the hardware setup e.g.brain size are clearly a factor. The nature of a man has nonetheless been created above that of an ape and the spirit of a man has a nobility lacking in an ape. The achievements of mankind are way beyond that of any apes and indeed there is no comparison on just about any level you choose to compare the two.

The problem is the bible does not use the term special creation, and by coming up with an extra biblical term you turn an interpretation of Gen 2 into a doctrine that can be nailed to the mast. If you look through scripture you will find the image of God as a potter making us from clay, or saying God made us from dust, yet none of us deny we have a mother and father and claim there were no intermediary steps in our creation. Genesis 2 is the only place where the picture of God forming people from clay is taken literally and it is insisted that this must be the meaning of the text.

The first man appears to have been formed fully mature and had no childhood as did I. His experience of life is totally unique as is the account of it.
 
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Are you identifying the ability to go to the moon as Imago Dei? Is _that_ what differentiates us from the animals?

No this is a symptom of Imago Del rather than its main rationale. We can use just about any criteria of achievement to differentiate man from beast. Indeed there is no comparison. Only man is the builder, artist, explorer, innovator, warrior , dreamer, leader and chimpanzees do not come close by just about any criteria.
 
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The church adjusted to heliocentrism with much less evidence than we have for evolution. So I do not see why they were justified for following the evidence while you think you should reject much more evidence for evolution.

Creationist arguments would have worked just as well in the seventeenth century. The evidence does not support heliocentrism we both have the same evidence we just interpret it differently. Astronomers read the evidence through their heliocentrist presuppositions. Astronomy has its roots in Astrology and that is of the devil. So what if astronomers predicted stellar parallax, geocentrism explains too, the designer simply chose to make the stars wobble. God makes pendulums wobble too. True science is science you can measure and study in a lab, astronomers claim planets are pulled by gravity but you cannot go into space to test it, you might as well travel back in time as travel in space. Gravity pulling objects to the ground is testable in a lab, no one have ever shown macro gravity can pull objects towards the sun, or that macro gravity can make objects move in a circle.

If the church had stuck by their literal interpretation and used these arguments to convince themselves science was wrong, they would still have been preaching gencentrism when Russians and Americans showed they could guide rockets through space and into orbit around the moon using Newtons laws and the gravity which operates in space like the heliocentrists said, and Neil Armstrong stepped onto the moon and was held in place by its gravity.

You can check heliocentricism in the here and now and there is no question of your observations being based on incomplete or degraded evidence as with evolution. You cannot check evolution in the same way as heliocentricism as that would involve time travel and physical presence at the key moments. None of its processes are observable on the macro level now and none have even been duplicated by scientists, even though micro level adaptations by species to their environment clearly are demonstrable they do not prove macro evolution..
 
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I grant you that their are some worldly distortions in the ways and manners in which some creationists will argue their cases. The enlightenments value for me was the recovery of the human and historical which had been lost by the ascetic and over transcendent approach of the scholastics.

But perhaps one value of the enlightenment was that it purged out some versions of allegorisation and metaphorical expression that were clearly ludicrous and which had more to do with the adoption of the Greek philosophical outlooks of Plato and Aristotle than to do with scripture itself.
Why do you see the lens that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the microscope that is in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the lens that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the microscope that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the microscope out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the lens that is in your brother’s eye.
 
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You can check heliocentricism in the here and now and there is no question of your observations being based on incomplete or degraded evidence as with evolution. You cannot check evolution in the same way as heliocentricism as that would involve time travel and physical presence at the key moments. None of its processes are observable on the macro level now and none have even been duplicated by scientists, even though micro level adaptations by species to their environment clearly are demonstrable they do not prove macro evolution..
But macroevolutionary processes leave behind evidence that can be observed in the present the same way a murder committed in the past can be investigated using evidence found in the present (blood stains, bullet holes, footprints, etc.). Only macroevolutionary processes predict that, say, some endogenous retroviruses should be uniquely shared by humans and apes. No other theory accounts for these facts. Because evolution is able to account for more of the evidence, it is the preferred explanation for biodiversity.
 
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No this is a symptom of Imago Del rather than its main rationale. We can use just about any criteria of achievement to differentiate man from beast. Indeed there is no comparison. Only man is the builder, artist, explorer, innovator, warrior , dreamer, leader and chimpanzees do not come close by just about any criteria.

But that can be just as easily be explained with a physically more developed brain than an intangible Image of God.

Besides, did you ever see the movie "I, Robot"?

Will Smith: Human beings have dreams. Even dogs have dreams, but not you, you are just a machine. An imitation of life. Can a robot write a symphony? Can a robot turn a canvas into a beautiful masterpiece?

Sonny the Robot: Can you?

Does the fact that not everyone can be builders, artists, explorers, etc., mean that they have less God in them?
 
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No this is a symptom of Imago Del rather than its main rationale. We can use just about any criteria of achievement to differentiate man from beast. Indeed there is no comparison. Only man is the builder, artist, explorer, innovator, warrior , dreamer, leader and chimpanzees do not come close by just about any criteria.

Chimpanzees do many of these things, albeit to a very limited extent. Maybe in a few million years... ;)

Let me put it a different way: if God had not revealed to us that we were distinct and separate from the other animals (such that our distinctions were a matter of type and not degree) would you have reason to think that we were?
 
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But macroevolutionary processes leave behind evidence that can be observed in the present the same way a murder committed in the past can be investigated using evidence found in the present (blood stains, bullet holes, footprints, etc.). Only macroevolutionary processes predict that, say, some endogenous retroviruses should be uniquely shared by humans and apes. No other theory accounts for these facts. Because evolution is able to account for more of the evidence, it is the preferred explanation for biodiversity.

It has always seemed to me that the evolution debate is merely symbolic of a greater conflict - whether the church should accept that certain categories of truth can be scientific, that is, falsifiable.
 
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You cleverly force me to clarify. I see the so called first account of Gen 1 as the transcendent Gods eye perspective complete with rationale for all the forming and filling he did in the 6 days of creation. Basically God does it, says its good, end of day. The second approach starts at ground level and you are right only God could have watched the whole process through.
Both accounts are ground level perspective, at least once the earth was created to have a ground level, And the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. The experience of the succession of evening and morning places the viewpoint of the observer down on the face of the earth too, And there was evening and the was morning...

But unlike the first chapter the events are not in the chronological order. The focus is on the man , his creation, Gods special care of him and finally the creation of the woman and the rationale for that. We have two pictures of the same story- Gods transcendence and immanence. The divine and the human. In the first account God is hurling stars into creation , in the second he is walking through a special garden he created for his most precious creation and is interested in how he will name the animals and setting down rules for the newly weds he brought together. Phenomenological may not be the perfect word to describe it but the point is its focus on the history of the man from the ground up rather than from God down.
Certainly we see God is more intimately involved in his creation in the second account, but that is not a reason to say the narrative does not give an order of events, it does, and the order of event are linked by a sequence of waw consecutive verbs as we find throughout Hebrew narrative including histories. To say the narrative does not give a chronological sequence is to say the narrative is not literal. But that is our point isn't it?

True the commonalities in the materials from which both ape and man are constructed are not the issue although the hardware setup e.g.brain size are clearly a factor. The nature of a man has nonetheless been created above that of an ape and the spirit of a man has a nobility lacking in an ape. The achievements of mankind are way beyond that of any apes and indeed there is no comparison on just about any level you choose to compare the two.
Yet we are finding more and more commonalities between man and other apes, in language social relationships, a sense of fairness, the ability to make tools and understand cause and effect. Certainly our abilities vastly outstrip theirs, but ist that what you would expect with larger and more complex brains? After all adults outstrip the abilities of toddlers too, but given enough time for a toddler brain to grow and develop the differences disappear, and great ape intelligence is comparable to a toddlers. Meanwhile in the fossil record we do find hominid brains develop over three million years from about the size of an apes to modern man. Is there any reason to think the differences in ability of ape and human are unrelated to the threefold growth in our brains over the last few million years?

The first man appears to have been formed fully mature and had no childhood as did I. His experience of life is totally unique as is the account of it.
You could read any of the potter and clay verses as claiming God literally made a full sized golem and animated it, the thing is we don't read them that way, so why should we read Genesis that way, especially when you don't take the narrative literally.

You can check heliocentricism in the here and now
Beware of picking the differences between heliocentrism and evolution and using them as an excuse to reject evolution. Yes we learned to change our interpretation of scripture when astronomy told us we got it wrong, yes it would be a mistake to insist on geocentrism because our interpretation of scripture says the sun goes round the earth, but evolution is different. Every science will have some differences you can latch onto as an excuse to reject it, but the church had the wisdom to accept heliocentrism with much less evidence than we have for evolution, just as the early church rejected the voices calling for a rejection or a round earth in favour of a biblical flat earth, and claimed a round earth was speculation because no one has gone there and come back to tell us what it is like. But the church followed what science said again with less evidence than we have for evolution.

and there is no question of your observations being based on incomplete or degraded evidence as with evolution.
How many planets are there in the universe orbiting stars? How many objects in the solar system orbiting the sun? How many angles did we observe the orbits of the planets from to see how they really moved? We had only observed a half dozen planets and a couple of moons, and all of the orbits were observed side on, and it all could be made fit a geocentric model with a few epicycles added in. There was no way to observe anything other than relative motion and no way to identify what was changing velocity. Terribly incomplete data, but the heliocentrism model gave an more elegant fit than the geocentric, unlike with evolution which is the only model that explains the distribution of of organisms and fossils. As for degraded, that is one of the strengths of science because it uses rates of decay, and while fossils like hominids show the signs of age, there is more than enough evidence to compare bone structures through the ages and measure cranial capacity.

You cannot check evolution in the same way as heliocentricism as that would involve time travel and physical presence at the key moments.
And space travel was just as impossible in the 17th century, yet no one conceived the idea of using the impossibility of impossible tests to reject a science they did not like. Science back then relied on possible tests, and the possible tests confirmed heliocentrism, though much more slowly and much fewer than they have confirmed evolution.

None of its processes are observable on the macro level now and none have even been duplicated by scientists, even though micro level adaptations by species to their environment clearly are demonstrable they do not prove macro evolution..
No one had ever travelled into space to see if the sun moon or other planets really did have a gravitational pull and that their hypothetical gravitational force could pull objects like rockets into circular or elliptical orbits. The only gravity that had ever been observed was the earth's and it pulled objects straight down to the earth, or if you accepted Galileo's claim, in a parabola if an object is shot at speed. No scientists had ever observed extra terrestrial gravity or seen the only gravity it had demonstrated pull objects into circular or elliptical orbits.
 
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It has always seemed to me that the evolution debate is merely symbolic of a greater conflict - whether the church should accept that certain categories of truth can be scientific, that is, falsifiable.
This always has been the mainstream, God created the universe and a study of the universe will reveal truth. At the same time there have been those on the fringes who saw fit to reject science claiming a round earth was pagan philosophy, occasionally when new science comes along and challenges a traditional interpretation, even the mainstream falls into this trap as when the Inquisition tried Galileo or Luther called Copernicus a fool, but these have been temporary aberrations.
 
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But macroevolutionary processes leave behind evidence that can be observed in the present the same way a murder committed in the past can be investigated using evidence found in the present (blood stains, bullet holes, footprints, etc.). Only macroevolutionary processes predict that, say, some endogenous retroviruses should be uniquely shared by humans and apes. No other theory accounts for these facts. Because evolution is able to account for more of the evidence, it is the preferred explanation for biodiversity.

We are not disagreeing on the evidence that is available, nor am I denying the professionalism and consistency with which many scientists search these matters out and seek to understand what is going on.

In the end you are looking at stuff thousands of years old, that could have been distorted by a great many of factors (some of which you are aware of and have accounted for and others which you have not). In the end I can respect your work and still suggest its a doomed endeavour. Certainty will always allude you by definition as there are some things science cannot prove or falsify. To use an even more immediate analogy and the intent of this post. The best and noblest attributes of a mans nature are inaccessible to science. Its not the best way to inspire them , to speak of them , to determine their roots or goals. Science cannot describe the x factor which makes us special in Gods creation , nor duplicate the miracles that made us that way.
 
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It has always seemed to me that the evolution debate is merely symbolic of a greater conflict - whether the church should accept that certain categories of truth can be scientific, that is, falsifiable.

Succintly phrased and very astute. Personally I do not believe that falsifiabilty can be achieved by science in four main areas:

1) Our Origins
2) Remote cosmology e.g. outside the explored solar system
3) The highest aspects of the nature of a man
4) Miracles

In these areas I am therefore scientifically agnostic and extremely sceptical of scientific certainty or overconfidence. However where there are other better and more appropriate sources of information e.g. revelation that speak clearly I can have confident views on these matters for other reasons.
 
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Why do you see the lens that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the microscope that is in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the lens that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the microscope that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the microscope out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the lens that is in your brother’s eye.


We are all works in progress. I argue what I authentically believe and can do no better than that. I trust God will change what needs to be changed and believe that all believers are in for some embarrassing briefings on how badly they got some stuff wrong when they get to be with God!!!:prayer:
 
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But that can be just as easily be explained with a physically more developed brain than an intangible Image of God.

Besides, did you ever see the movie "I, Robot"?

Will Smith: Human beings have dreams. Even dogs have dreams, but not you, you are just a machine. An imitation of life. Can a robot write a symphony? Can a robot turn a canvas into a beautiful masterpiece?

Sonny the Robot: Can you?

Does the fact that not everyone can be builders, artists, explorers, etc., mean that they have less God in them?


No robot comes close to iRobot - its a work of fiction and one could debate for hours what kind of intelligence or contrived insight they will ultimately be capable of. I suppose an artificial intelligence will one day be able to google the most human sounding response and shock me into silence and yet not understand it or feel the worth of what it said.

I have never met a human being whose life was not a story , song or work of immense creativity, interest and miracle. But I have not always heard that story expressed.
 
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Chimpanzees do many of these things, albeit to a very limited extent. Maybe in a few million years... ;)

Let me put it a different way: if God had not revealed to us that we were distinct and separate from the other animals (such that our distinctions were a matter of type and not degree) would you have reason to think that we were?

I need to discuss that one with the monkeys. I will let you know if that discussion yields anything of any value ;-)

Planet of the apes was also a work of fiction.
 
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In the end I can respect your work and still suggest its a doomed endeavour.
Indeed you can. But unless you actually provide some specific evidence as to WHY the inference of evolution in deep time is doomed (say, some taphonomic factor that palaeontologists haven't considered), no one is going to listen -- particularly not those of us who actually do this kind of work for a living. It's like telling Bill Gates his software is worthless despite the fact that nearly every computer owner in the world is running Microsoft.
 
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Both accounts are ground level perspective, at least once the earth was created to have a ground level, And the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. The experience of the succession of evening and morning places the viewpoint of the observer down on the face of the earth too, And there was evening and the was morning...

Certainly we see God is more intimately involved in his creation in the second account, but that is not a reason to say the narrative does not give an order of events, it does, and the order of event are linked by a sequence of waw consecutive verbs as we find throughout Hebrew narrative including histories. To say the narrative does not give a chronological sequence is to say the narrative is not literal. But that is our point isn't it?

Yet we are finding more and more commonalities between man and other apes, in language social relationships, a sense of fairness, the ability to make tools and understand cause and effect. Certainly our abilities vastly outstrip theirs, but ist that what you would expect with larger and more complex brains? After all adults outstrip the abilities of toddlers too, but given enough time for a toddler brain to grow and develop the differences disappear, and great ape intelligence is comparable to a toddlers. Meanwhile in the fossil record we do find hominid brains develop over three million years from about the size of an apes to modern man. Is there any reason to think the differences in ability of ape and human are unrelated to the threefold growth in our brains over the last few million years?

You could read any of the potter and clay verses as claiming God literally made a full sized golem and animated it, the thing is we don't read them that way, so why should we read Genesis that way, especially when you don't take the narrative literally.


Beware of picking the differences between heliocentrism and evolution and using them as an excuse to reject evolution. Yes we learned to change our interpretation of scripture when astronomy told us we got it wrong, yes it would be a mistake to insist on geocentrism because our interpretation of scripture says the sun goes round the earth, but evolution is different. Every science will have some differences you can latch onto as an excuse to reject it, but the church had the wisdom to accept heliocentrism with much less evidence than we have for evolution, just as the early church rejected the voices calling for a rejection or a round earth in favour of a biblical flat earth, and claimed a round earth was speculation because no one has gone there and come back to tell us what it is like. But the church followed what science said again with less evidence than we have for evolution.

How many planets are there in the universe orbiting stars? How many objects in the solar system orbiting the sun? How many angles did we observe the orbits of the planets from to see how they really moved? We had only observed a half dozen planets and a couple of moons, and all of the orbits were observed side on, and it all could be made fit a geocentric model with a few epicycles added in. There was no way to observe anything other than relative motion and no way to identify what was changing velocity. Terribly incomplete data, but the heliocentrism model gave an more elegant fit than the geocentric, unlike with evolution which is the only model that explains the distribution of of organisms and fossils. As for degraded, that is one of the strengths of science because it uses rates of decay, and while fossils like hominids show the signs of age, there is more than enough evidence to compare bone structures through the ages and measure cranial capacity.

And space travel was just as impossible in the 17th century, yet no one conceived the idea of using the impossibility of impossible tests to reject a science they did not like. Science back then relied on possible tests, and the possible tests confirmed heliocentrism, though much more slowly and much fewer than they have confirmed evolution.

No one had ever travelled into space to see if the sun moon or other planets really did have a gravitational pull and that their hypothetical gravitational force could pull objects like rockets into circular or elliptical orbits. The only gravity that had ever been observed was the earth's and it pulled objects straight down to the earth, or if you accepted Galileo's claim, in a parabola if an object is shot at speed. No scientists had ever observed extra terrestrial gravity or seen the only gravity it had demonstrated pull objects into circular or elliptical orbits.

You cannot defend a monkey as you would a child - they are not in the same league- a monkey will never be anything but a monkey.

The quality of the evidence for heliocentricism in our solar system is overwhelming, can be checked mathematically, observationally and by the physical presence of satellites around the solar system. We do not know very much even about our own neighbourhood but we know the sun is the biggest kid in our playground. The evidence from maths and telescopes was also hard to deny for a thinking person in c17 and could be checked then also.

You cannot equate the quality of this evidence with that for evolution. Its degraded, incomplete and even in our best samples partial, often ruined, sometimes tampered with and in highest probability mainly misunderstood! We also have no human check for the processes described.
 
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Indeed you can. But unless you actually provide some specific evidence as to WHY the inference of evolution in deep time is doomed (say, some taphonomic factor that palaeontologists haven't considered), no one is going to listen -- particularly not those of us who actually do this kind of work for a living. It's like telling Bill Gates his software is worthless despite the fact that nearly every computer owner in the world is running Microsoft.

So unless I can argue scientifically about something which I consider beyond the remit of science I should shut up and go with the consensus and leave you to your living wage. ;)

Most private users and a great many servers have MS Operating systems and software. One could argue that Apple pioneered the personal computer OS or IBM and that Bill Gates and crew got many of their crucial foundational ideas from previous IT endeavours. But Microsoft is not the worlds premier search engine like Google, does not provide the network technology which interface the worlds computers, does not produce the hardware on which the OS runs or the CPU chips it uses. In many emerging markets like Smartphones it is not dominant. Blackberries are more popular than Windows Mobile based phones in North America for instance and Google Android may end up being the dominant Mobile OS once it has had the sufficient development time. Large Corporates with security concerns may use Lotus notes rather than Exchange and the trends are against MS in the long run as the market gets more and more competitive and changes character. Microsoft are the most popular solution out there in a narrow sector of the world of computing and that may not last.

Microsoft products were successful in the main because they made computing accessible to the masses and marketed it better than people like Apple or IBM who were doing personal computer OSs before them. Ease of use and marketability are highly flexible conditions in the world of technology and right now Microsoft are scared of a great many emerging threats to their dominance.

You share a common perception as if it were an obvious way to illustrate your case. Science produces so many benefits and is so popular for doing so that people are very forgiving of its failings when addressing specialised areas where it might not be the most appropriate tool e.g. counselling human beings for instance or motivating them to aspire to greatness.

Microsoft do a good OS for a PC and everybody assumes they will make it work on a mobile too. They did but a Blackberry is better for security reasons for instance and even if MS ally with Nokia and target RIM, Google may take them all out with Android.

If Science is like Microsoft then it is not always the best way forward and has no solution at all for many kinds of situations and is indeed dependent on other peoples solutions anyway to obtain its results.
 
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ebia

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Jul 6, 2004
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A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
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We are all works in progress. I argue what I authentically believe and can do no better than that. I trust God will change what needs to be changed and believe that all believers are in for some embarrassing briefings on how badly they got some stuff wrong when they get to be with God!!!:prayer:
On that we can agree.
 
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